To CIV or not to CIV

[Norton Bridge]

We’ve booked a holiday in July that includes travel on Eurostar from St Pancras plus connecting TGV trains. I’m still puzzling about the best tickets to buy for our connecting trains from Stafford and wondered if the experts on here can advise me. There will be two of us travelling and we both hold senior railcards.

We’re staying in London the night before the outward Eurostar to Paris so I’m quite happy to buy an Advance Single outward.

Coming back (on a Thursday in July) we arrive into St Pancras at 1735. From BR Times I make the minimum connecting time to Euston to be 63 minutes (35 minutes London International, 13 minutes transfer, 15 minutes at Euston). This is different to the 58 minutes I’ve seen quoted on this forum page, but have these times changed recently? If so that’s annoying because there is a train from Euston at 1833, exactly 58 minutes after our St Pancras arrival.

Looking at tickets, there is a Euro High Saver at £40.20 which I assume is valid on the 1833 to Stafford and an Off Peak Single at £40.05 which definitely isn’t. That isn’t too much of a problem as the next train is at 1900. I’m also not worried about the tube at St Pancras as, weather permitting, we’re happy to walk.

However, looking at Thursday trains as far ahead as possible at the moment (which puts us into early June) I can see that there is an Advance Single available for considerably cheaper at £17.95 on the 1900 service. If we were delayed on the Eurostar and missed this, would we have to buy a new ticket or would be allowed onto the next Avanti service? This Eurostar page suggests we would be, but it wasn’t clear whether Advances would be covered. Evren if they are, what are the chances of Avanti staff knowing this (and particularly those on the Euston gateline)?

 

[jfollows]

It’s never clear to me, but there are different transfer times from

1. LONDON INTERNATIONAL(CIV)
2. LONDON ST PANCRAS
3. LONDON EUROSTAR CIV
4. LONDON ST PANCRAS INTL

to Euston, and I’m not sure of the correct one to use. I think I used the first one for the transfer time you quote, but I may have used the wrong one.

 

[Haywain]

It’s never clear to me, but there are different transfer times from

1. LONDON INTERNATIONAL(CIV)
2. LONDON ST PANCRAS
3. LONDON EUROSTAR CIV
4. LONDON ST PANCRAS INTL

to Euston, and I’m not sure of the correct one to use. I think I used the first one for the transfer time you quote, but I may have used the wrong one.

I would say that it is the first that should be used as that is where a "through" ticket would be issued to/from. I don't think it is possible to buy tickets to 'London Eurostar CIV' any more.

 

[jfollows]

I would say that it is the first that should be used as that is where a "through" ticket would be issued to/from. I don't think it is possible to buy tickets to 'London Eurostar CIV' any more.

Thank you for clarifying, so I probably used the correct one originally and the transfer time is 58 minutes, noting that it's 63 minutes at other times of day.

 

[ainsworth74]

Coming back (on a Thursday in July) we arrive into St Pancras at 1735. From BR Times I make the minimum connecting time to Euston to be 63 minutes (35 minutes London International, 13 minutes transfer, 15 minutes at Euston). This is different to the 58 minutes I’ve seen quoted on this forum page, but have these times changed recently? If so that’s annoying because there is a train from Euston at 1833, exactly 58 minutes after our St Pancras arrival.

You're issue is in the transfer time. It varies depending on time of day. The fixed link for London International to Euston 13 minutes if you're travelling between 0529 and 0659 or 1901 to 2359 between 0700 and 1900 it's 8 minutes (outside of that it's 18 minutes). As you're proposing to travel between those times you can use the 8 minute transfer time giving you 58 minutes as per the linked post.

However, looking at Thursday trains as far ahead as possible at the moment (which puts us into early June) I can see that there is an Advance Single available for considerably cheaper at £17.95 on the 1900 service. If we were delayed on the Eurostar and missed this, would we have to buy a new ticket or would be allowed onto the next Avanti service? This Eurostar page suggests we would be, but it wasn’t clear whether Advances would be covered. Evren if they are, what are the chances of Avanti staff knowing this (and particularly those on the Euston gateline)?

My understanding is that, in theory, you're out of luck if you're not using a CIV ticket. However I'm not sure I've heard of a GB TOC being difficult about it when it does happen and the passenger doesn't have a CIV ticket. I have heard of Eurostar being difficult when it's the fault of a GB TOC and a Eurostar has been missed when the passenger didn't have a CIV ticket. Personally with a 90 minute connection I don't mind running the risk transferring from Eurostar to a GB TOC but everyone's risk appetite is different!

 

[Watershed]

From a strict legal perspective, separate CIV tickets only constitute a single journey if all of the conditions of carriage for each operator involved allow for this. The NRCoT obviously do, but unfortunately Eurostar's conditions of carriage don't. Therefore, even if you buy a CIV Advance, you have no strict legal protection.

Buying a CIV ticket probably improves your chances of having your ticket accepted on a later train in the event of disruption, but you don't have much to fall back onto if it's ultimately refused.

I would err towards allowing more connecting time - probably an hour at least - rather than less, if possible. Of course you can walk from the Eurostar arrivals area to the Euston platforms in 10 minutes (or less if you walk quickly), so you have a lot of time to kill if the train is punctual. The Somers Town Coffee House in between the two stations is a decent watering hole to kill some time - much nicer (and cheaper) than the facilities at Euston.

 

[30907]

The 58/63min allows for Eurostar checkin, so why it applies in the reverse direction is a mystery.

 

[Haywain]

The Somers Town Coffee House in between the two stations is a decent watering hole to kill some time - much nicer (and cheaper) than the facilities at Euston.

The Captain Flinders Wetherspoons pub across Eversholt Street from Euston station is, I believe, somewhat cheaper.

 

[Egg Centric]

The 58/63min allows for Eurostar checkin, so why it applies in the reverse direction is a mystery.

Not saying that this *is* the reason but in theory customs could do another bag search, right?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Not saying that this *is* the reason but in theory customs could do another bag search, right?

And don’t forget historically some trains such as the former Disneyland service were immigration on arrival in London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2025 ==

The 58/63min allows for Eurostar checkin, so why it applies in the reverse direction is a mystery.

Allows for immigration and customs checks on arrival.

 

[Mainline421]

From a strict legal perspective, separate CIV tickets only constitute a single journey if all of the conditions of carriage for each operator involved allow for this. The NRCoT obviously do, but unfortunately Eurostar's conditions of carriage don't. Therefore, even if you buy a CIV Advance, you have no strict legal protection.

Buying a CIV ticket probably improves your chances of having your ticket accepted on a later train in the event of disruption, but you don't have much to fall back onto if it's ultimately refused.

I would err towards allowing more connecting time - probably an hour at least - rather than less, if possible. Of course you can walk from the Eurostar arrivals area to the Euston platforms in 10 minutes (or less if you walk quickly), so you have a lot of time to kill if the train is punctual. The Somers Town Coffee House in between the two stations is a decent watering hole to kill some time - much nicer (and cheaper) than the facilities at Euston.

Eurostar and the RDG both state unequivocally that the other "is obliged to provide travel on the next available train free of charge." Even if they don't put it in their conditions of carriage they would legally have to honour this. In reality they will usually do this even for those without CIV tickets, there is zero chance they would try to refuse anyone with one.

 

[Watershed]

Eurostar and the RDG both state unequivocally that the other "is obliged to provide travel on the next available train free of charge." Even if they don't put it in their conditions of carriage they would legally have to honour this. In reality they will usually do this even for those without CIV tickets, there is zero chance they would try to refuse anyone with one.

Please can you cite where you are reading this?

For it to be legally binding, it would have to be a "statement" that the customer takes into account when making their purchasing decision under the Consumer Rights Act.

The strict legal position is thankfully something you don't usually have to rely on, as most rail staff quite reasonably accept CIV or other tickets on later trains if there are Eurostar delays. However, given that the OP would be travelling from Euston - whose Avanti barrier staff are notorious for making up their own rules - it's important to consider what the OP's actual legal rights are.

 

[infobleep]

And don’t forget historically some trains such as the former Disneyland service were immigration on arrival in London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2025 ==



Allows for immigration and customs checks on arrival.

Is there any immigration and customs checks on arrival. I've never seen any but that doesn't mean they don't do it for some people.

 

[KeithMcC]

They sometimes pull people out of the arriving passenger flow for a check.

 

[MrJeeves]

Please can you cite where you are reading this?

For it to be legally binding, it would have to be a "statement" that the customer takes into account when making their purchasing decision under the Consumer Rights Act.

The strict legal position is thankfully something you don't usually have to rely on, as most rail staff quite reasonably accept CIV or other tickets on later trains if there are Eurostar delays. However, given that the OP would be travelling from Euston - whose Avanti barrier staff are notorious for making up their own rules - it's important to consider what the OP's actual legal rights are.

Eurostar make the position very clear on https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/connecting-train#Missed-Connection

Missed connection due to a delayed train in the UK​

If you’ve missed an onward connection because of a train delay or cancellation, you can get on the next available train for free. This is because we have an agreement with other local train operators in the UK.

If you miss your connecting train in the UK:
Chat to a member of our team to confirm that your Eurostar train has been delayed or cancelled. At your connecting station, staff of the train operator you’re travelling with will get you on the next available connecting train for free.

If you miss your Eurostar train:
Chat to a staff member who works for the UK train operator you’re travelling with. Confirm that your train has been delayed or cancelled. At London St Pancras International, our team will get you on the next available Eurostar train for free.
Please keep in mind that the next available train may be a service later that day. Staff will always offer the best possible option, but on very busy days, you might have to be booked on a train on a subsequent day.

There's no explicit mention of whether it must be a CIV ticket or not, either. RDG, on the other hand, does not state this agreement anywhere publicly.

It's worth being specific that it doesn't say RDG operators are obliged to accept your ticket. Rather, Eurostar may well decide to issue a passenger with a brand new ticket for their domestic UK leg if disrupted for all we know! It's not precise in its wording, but I imagine an endorsement of the ticket for the domestic journey would be done?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there any immigration and customs checks on arrival. I've never seen any but that doesn't mean they don't do it for some people.

I've never seen immigration checks but there's always been at least some Border Force staff present I assume to deal with anyone who has something to declare (or to do random spot checks, not that I've seen those either!).

 

[country_end_37]

Eurostar make the position very clear on https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/connecting-train#Missed-Connection



There's no explicit mention of whether it must be a CIV ticket or not, either. RDG, on the other hand, does not state this agreement anywhere publicly.

It's worth being specific that it doesn't say RDG operators are obliged to accept your ticket. Rather, Eurostar may well decide to issue a passenger with a brand new ticket for their domestic UK leg if disrupted for all we know! It's not precise in its wording, but I imagine an endorsement of the ticket for the domestic journey would be done?

A couple of weeks ago, I was on a delayed Eurostar on the way to St Pancras, which meant I was in danger of missing my onward connection (with a Greater Anglia Advance ticket from Liverpool St, but all booked separately, no CIV).

The Eurostar staff member I asked on the train gave me one of these "proof of delay of cancellation" forms (rather than actually endorsing my Advance ticket). He said it would be sufficient to show this to GA staff, for them to issue me a new ticket, to be allowed on the next GA train; in the event I didn't need it as I just made it to my train, but in a way I'd have liked to test it, because it would be useful to know for the future how much hassle there would be.

The barcode takes you to the same page as linked by MrJeeves above.

 

[infobleep]

I've never seen immigration checks but there's always been at least some Border Force staff present I assume to deal with anyone who has something to declare (or to do random spot checks, not that I've seen those either!).

So I guess they must allow for that as default even if it's rare.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is there any immigration and customs checks on arrival. I've never seen any but that doesn't mean they don't do it for some people.

The service doesn’t run anymore but the Disneyland services were always full immigration on arrival at St Pancras.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I've never seen immigration checks but there's always been at least some Border Force staff present I assume to deal with anyone who has something to declare (or to do random spot checks, not that I've seen those either!).

There can also be police present in their Special Branch role - though these days in the Met it's actually performed by the Counter Terrorism Command, and in other forces their equivalent unit. If visibly present they'd just be suited, i.e. they are not uniformed.

 

[tomoufc]

Eurostar make the position very clear on https://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/travel-info/connecting-train#Missed-Connection



There's no explicit mention of whether it must be a CIV ticket or not, either. RDG, on the other hand, does not state this agreement anywhere publicly.

It's worth being specific that it doesn't say RDG operators are obliged to accept your ticket. Rather, Eurostar may well decide to issue a passenger with a brand new ticket for their domestic UK leg if disrupted for all we know! It's not precise in its wording, but I imagine an endorsement of the ticket for the domestic journey would be done?

Does this effectively mean no need to buy CIV tickets for ES connections? Great if true, because that’s a right faff, and can cost more (although it can cost less!).

 

[Norton Bridge]

Thanks for all your replies. I was hoping someone would have a definitive answer, but the fact there isn't makes me glad I asked the question! I'm inclined to risk it with the Advance for the 1900 or possibly later.

 

[MrJeeves]

Does this effectively mean no need to buy CIV tickets for ES connections? Great if true, because that’s a right faff, and can cost more (although it can cost less!).

Personally, I'd still be buying CIV tickets just to remove any ambiguity whatsoever unless there's a really good reason not to.

It's not much of faff with the forum's ticketing site!

 

[Norton Bridge]

In this case though the cost of the CIV is double that of the Advance. I agree that it's easy enough to buy on the forum's site.

 

[infobleep]

In this case though the cost of the CIV is double that of the Advance. I agree that it's easy enough to buy on the forum's site.

Personally I would just buy the advances.

 

[MrJeeves]

Personally I would just buy the advances.

Me too.

 

[Benjwri]

Personally, I'd still be buying CIV tickets just to remove any ambiguity whatsoever unless there's a really good reason not to.

It's not much of faff with the forum's ticketing site!

I would counter there is no ambiguity here. Eurostar publicly state they have an agreement that you will be let on the next train, and do not put any restrictions on it to destinations. Even if you weren’t let on you’d have a pretty strong case to claim back.

Regardless I’ve had a fair share of missed connections off Eurostar, and even RPIs have accepted advance tickets after an explanation and showing them the train delayed on Eurostar's website.

 

[Birkonian]

Avanti sell Advance tickets to/from London International CIV on their website. Approx £2 dearer from Liverpool for instance, than for Euston only. Useful if raining as they include the tube transfer. The itinerary shows a much shorter transfer time than mentioned above. Useful to show at the barrier if delayed, even if not legally binding. I've attached mine for a future trip. No, I'm not catching a Eurostar with such a short transfer time but that's how it is framed.

 

[jfollows]

Avanti sell Advance tickets to/from London International CIV on their website. Approx £2 dearer from Liverpool for instance, than for Euston only. Useful if raining as they include the tube transfer. The itinerary shows a much shorter transfer time than mentioned above. Useful to show at the barrier if delayed, even if not legally binding. I've attached mine for a future trip. No, I'm not catching a Eurostar with such a short transfer time but that's how it is framed.

I think that’s showing the 15 minute station time and 8 minute transfer time and you’d be expected to book a Eurostar departure at least 35 minutes later than that.

 

[Haywain]

The itinerary shows a much shorter transfer time than mentioned above.

Because it isn’t including the interchange time required at St Pancras.