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Bee Network Service/Route Discussion

Statto

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Yes, the 582 has always been like that, we're just lucky it's mostly double deckers now.
The same queues happen at Leigh bus station.

It wasn't uncommon to see 3 bunched together (and at once point I saw 4).


Unfortunately I think you're just out of luck if that happens.
I'll probably always just buy a day ticket, hopefully one day we'll have contactless like London, so I can use the hopper if it works, and get the cap if it doesn't.
The 582 is one of those routes that should be easy to manage, given the nature of the route compared with other trunk routes in the GM area, with end to end journey time is just under 40 minutes, yet one of the buses was around 45 minutes late yesterday, & late running seems normal.
 
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johncrossley

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The good thing about the paper hopper ticket is that we can see what time we purchased it, and therefore how late we can use it to board another bus.

It also means another reason for conflict with the driver. Some passengers will inevitably complain to the driver that they want to use it beyond expiry because of a delayed bus or another reason, causing further delay.
As an aside, I hope the introduction of the tap on tap off option, with total fare for the day calculated Oyster style, will not lead to the abolition of paper daysavers.
Why not? There is no need for driver issued tickets in 2025. They waste everybody's time. It is now more than 10 years since London stopped them. Drivers have also stopped issuing tickets in several other big European cities in recent years.
 
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Andyh82

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I've never found a route where "wait 20 minutes then two come at once" is more true than on the 582.
Late running is completely normal (and expected).

Sometimes there are 3 in 5 minutes, sometimes theres 1 in an hour.
What’s annoying is that there is a driver change at the Bolton end, and indeed when I was waiting in a long queue, the driver was waiting as well

If they had a spare bus or two in the layover, a new driver could take a new bus, with the driver being relieved parking their bus in the layover when they finally arrive

Hard to fix in Manchester where driver changes don’t take place, there are no spare buses readily available, but in Bolton there could be.
 

M60lad

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Not to sure where to post this or whether this is the right place but whatever happened to all the TfGM Data Collectors? Are they still about or don't Bee Network have them anymore?
 

Leedsbusman

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Not to sure where to post this or whether this is the right place but whatever happened to all the TfGM Data Collectors? Are they still about or don't Bee Network have them anymore?
Presumably now they control the ticket machines and have the data there is no need.
 

thomasheywood

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When you buy a day ticket on a bee network bus it usually has a QR code on, but not the bus/train/tram ticket. This has caused me no end of problems as drivers do not want to accept this ticket. Is there anything official that states this ticket does not come with a QR code?
 

mangad

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When you buy a day ticket on a bee network bus it usually has a QR code on, but not the bus/train/tram ticket. This has caused me no end of problems as drivers do not want to accept this ticket. Is there anything official that states this ticket does not come with a QR code?
Well it never came with a QR code before the Bee Network. Nothing new about that ticket if you're taking about a System 1 Bus/Train/Tram.
 

M60lad

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It seems that Stagecoach Manchester have shot themselves in the foot with the service changes especially the 181/182s as from what I've heard recently from various drivers is that despite them being given about 20/25 minutes drop-back/recovery time in Manchester there's actually no where for the drivers to park up as they've been told not to park in Stevenson Square which some of them have been doing, also I'm not to sure whether their allowed to park on street for that length of time either.
 

Mollman

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It seems that Stagecoach Manchester have shot themselves in the foot with the service changes especially the 181/182s as from what I've heard recently from various drivers is that despite them being given about 20/25 minutes drop-back/recovery time in Manchester there's actually no where for the drivers to park up as they've been told not to park in Stevenson Square which some of them have been doing, also I'm not to sure whether their allowed to park on street for that length of time either.
Given that these changes will have had to be agreed with TfGM, I am sure a conversation must have taken place about where to lay over - not as if Stagecoach are new to Manchester.
 

mayneway

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Not to sure where to post this or whether this is the right place but whatever happened to all the TfGM Data Collectors? Are they still about or don't Bee Network have them anymore?
They still have data collectors, infact I’ve had one on my bus since it became ‘bee network’.
They still have to monitor concessionary passes, less frequented routes and also now monitor capacity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

When you buy a day ticket on a bee network bus it usually has a QR code on, but not the bus/train/tram ticket. This has caused me no end of problems as drivers do not want to accept this ticket. Is there anything official that states this ticket does not come with a QR code?
It’s a system one product so it won’t come with a QR code.
It boils down to poor training. As a driver myself I’d simply look at the ticket check the date and allow travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It seems that Stagecoach Manchester have shot themselves in the foot with the service changes especially the 181/182s as from what I've heard recently from various drivers is that despite them being given about 20/25 minutes drop-back/recovery time in Manchester there's actually no where for the drivers to park up as they've been told not to park in Stevenson Square which some of them have been doing, also I'm not to sure whether their allowed to park on street for that length of time either.
How have stagecoach shot themselves in the foot?
It’s exactly the same in shudehill. Drivers are told to take any more than 5 mins layover away from the station. They are not told where to go and park it’s part of being a bus driver.
Obvious place would be drop off and go round and park at top of Oldham street, or go round and park on church street.
 
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Andyh82

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It seems that Stagecoach Manchester have shot themselves in the foot with the service changes especially the 181/182s as from what I've heard recently from various drivers is that despite them being given about 20/25 minutes drop-back/recovery time in Manchester there's actually no where for the drivers to park up as they've been told not to park in Stevenson Square which some of them have been doing, also I'm not to sure whether their allowed to park on street for that length of time either.
Now that everything is Bee Network, I think a complete review of most city centre bus routings and terminals needs to be undertaken, as many of them are unsatisfactory. The amount of messing about some routes have to take due to various pedestrianisation schemes over the years.

Pretty much the only place where it can be considered a decent place to wait for a bus, and with layover space is Shudehill, but that is then let down by the poor walking routes to get to it. Every other service goes from a scruffy on street stop often without a shelter.
 

mayneway

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Pretty much the only place where it can be considered a decent place to wait for a bus, and with layover space is Shudehill, but that is then let down by the poor walking routes to get to it. Every other service goes from a scruffy on street stop often without a shelter.
You’re joking right??
Shudehill is a nightmare. It’s way too small for its needs. Layover is non existent and if you’re scheduled to have more than 5 mins layover you’re supposed to leave the bus station and take it elsewhere.
Moving the Transdev X41/X43 into there just made things worse.
 

daodao

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Historically, many Manchester Corporation bus routes to destinations within 5 miles of the city centre operated as cross-city services avoiding the need for city centre termini, for example most of the services to Chorlton-cum-Hardy. This ceased on deregulation when 2 separate bus companies serving north and south Manchester were created. It would now be easier to re-create cross city services under the aegis of the unified Bee network.
 
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Mollman

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Historically, many Manchester Corporation bus routes to destinations within 5 miles of the city centre operated as cross-city services avoiding the need for city centre termini, for example most of the services to Chorlton-cum-Hardy. This ceased on deregulation when 2 separate bus companies serving north and south Manchester were created. It would now be easier to re-create cross city services under the aegis of the unified Bee network.
Whilst that makes sense in theory and was one of the stated aims of franchising (at least at the start of the process), the issue is that the most logical and direct cross city routes aren't available anymore due to pedestrianisation, hence why Transdev cut back services to Shudehill.
 

daodao

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Whilst that makes sense in theory and was one of the stated aims of franchising (at least at the start of the process), the issue is that the most logical and direct cross city routes aren't available anymore due to pedestrianisation, hence why Transdev cut back services to Shudehill.
Transdev services to Manchester are interurban express routes from central Lancashire, whose central Manchester terminus was altered to be closer to their point of entry to Manchester city centre; they are not cross-city urban routes and are outwith the Bee network.
 

Andyh82

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Transdev services to Manchester are interurban express routes from central Lancashire, whose central Manchester terminus was altered to be closer to their point of entry to Manchester city centre; they are not cross-city urban routes and are outwith the Bee network.
You only have to see the messy routes the likes of the 41 do or how the 59 gets to Piccadilly

Ideally they’d run straight down Cross Street but obviously the Metrolink at Exchange Square has blocked that route

In regards to Shudehill having no layover, it has more than the Manchester City Centre average which seems to be none!
 

johncrossley

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If you look at similarly sized cities in the rest of the world they don't attempt to pour vast numbers of buses into the city centre. They either run along the edge of the city centre or terminate at the edge, allowing passengers to transfer onto trams or metros to reach wherever they are going. Manchester pretends that everybody wants to go to one particular part of the city centre when more than likely they want to go to another part, or they are transferring to another route.
 

Statto

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Whilst that makes sense in theory and was one of the stated aims of franchising (at least at the start of the process), the issue is that the most logical and direct cross city routes aren't available anymore due to pedestrianisation, hence why Transdev cut back services to Shudehill.
Getting in & out of Manchester City Centre can be a pain even at the best of times, i've been on the X43 that has taken 20 to 25 minutes to get from Chorlton Street to Bury New Road this 09.00 to 09.30 & against the traffic flow, that's why Transdev rerouted there Lancashire services to Shudehill, which has nothing to do with pedestrianisation, but how long buses were taken to get to & from Chorlton Street.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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A few half-truths being propagated here. The decline in cross-city services, whether suburb to suburb or simply terminating on the far side of the city centre to provide maximum passenger convenience, is a process that's been going on for decades. There have also been various different factors affecting that process.

Immediately prior to deregulation genuine cross-city services ran Whitefield-East Didsbury and Chorlton-Moston. A number of Hyde Road services terminated at Victoria Railway Station, most Wilmslow Road services circled the city centre, and some services from Salford via Chapel Street went through to Piccadilly Gardens (primarily from Swinton and the Eccles Old Road corridor). Other Salford services terminated at the Arndale Bus Station or Victoria Bus Station (different location to the rail station). The latter, though slightly remote from the heart of the city, did have a convenient layover area under the arches at nearby Greengate.

Deregulation saw Victoria Bus Station closed to reduce PTE costs and concerns about congestion saw the end of cross-city services and far fewer services terminating on the far side of the city centre. This put a lot of pressure on both Piccadilly and Arndale Bus Stations. At the same time the rapid rise of new operators led to an increase in the numbers of elderly buses in the city and so began Manchester City Council's long-term bias against buses especially once Metrolink was approved: clean electric trams = good, noisy smelly diesel buses = bad. The one outlier was the introduction of services 90/790 linking Rossendale to Manchester which went to Chorlton Street Coach Station, mimicking the long established Ribble X43 Timesaver from Burnley (forerunner to today's Witchway service).

In due course Metrolink opened but at the cost of reducing the size of Piccadilly Bus Station. Traffic Regulation Orders were also brought in to prevent buses parking up all over the place and forced operators to adopt schedules which were unreliable. The big bang, literally, was the bomb of 1996 which not only led to the closure of Arndale Bus Station but also the loss of Cannon Street as a convenient north-south route across the city. It is little wonder that so many operators were in turmoil during this period!

Eventually Shudehill Interchange was built and though it provides much needed terminal capacity in reality it is just a sticking plaster of a solution. The ideal solution which has been staring everyone in the face is to completely pave over Piccadilly Gardens to create room for a decent size central bus station. But despite frequent outbreaks of ASB it seems that Mancunians are loathe to give up the open space even though as a whole Manchester has a large number of parks and other green spaces

The alternative may well be for Bee Network to re-introduce numbers of cross-city services with sufficient vehicles allocated to provide genuine resilience and slightly extended layovers at the outer termini. Perhaps the restraining factor is London's experience with such services which have been cut back considerably over the years/decades. Nevertheless the existence today of routes like the 41, 50 and Vantage services does demonstrate what can be done. And the gradual improvement in bus emissions, even if it had to be spurred on by bringing in the LEZ, ought to make buses running across the heart of the city an easier sell.
 

Andyh82

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Comparing Manchester with its neighbour across the Pennines - Leeds. Whereas Manchester obviously has the upper hand due to having the tram, Leeds is much better when it comes to bus stops and bus routings

They have a bus station with enough stands and decent layover, they can run cross city routes due to the fact that they can run literally in a straight line across the city with no messing about, and lastly all the major on street stops are fairly well appointed and nowhere near as awful as the likes of Oldham Street

It’s something Burnham needs to push for, although I’m guessing it’s mostly Manchester City Council’s remit so he wouldn’t have much sway?

I’ve never quite understood why Piccadilly Gardens bus station doesn’t have an overall building, similar in design to the main part of Oldham Bus Station?
 

markymark2000

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Historically, many Manchester Corporation bus routes that served destinations within 5 miles of the city centre operated as cross-city services avoiding the need for city centre termini, for example most of the services to Chorlton-cum-Hardy. This ceased on privatisation when 2 separate bus companies serving north and south Manchester were created. It would now be easier to re-create cross city services under the aegis of the unified Bee network.
X50 and 205 would be an interesting one to make an east-west route. Journey time of around 1h 10 each way. Both the same frequency, and both operated by Metroline so no issues there. It would mean more drivers can swap outside the depot on Hyde Road and save any issues with 2 routes and layovers in the city. The kicker though, do you want people in Gorton to suffer a poorer service every time there is a Manchester United match on?

I could forsee something like the 18 moving to a City Centre depot too and extending each trip to West Didsbury to replace the 143. Rochdale Road and Wilmslow Road both have other routes so if the city centre becomes a mess there is enough other routes for people to make journeys and not be completely stranded (parts of Langley would be the only area which would be exclusive to the 18). It would be a frequency cut on the 143 but any buses saved could go into increasing the frequency on the 43 between West Didsbury and the city, or other Wilmslow Road routes depending on where the demand is. Alternative routes exist on both Rochdale Road and Wilmslow Road corridors that the cross city part failed, people could still make journeys.

Cross city routes are great for connectivity around the City Centre and to get people from the suburbs into more parts of the city, but with how poor the road network is in Manchester City Centre, with the lack of bus priority and seeming car centric thinking, journeys can become very unreliable very quickly. So while there may be a few other routes which are of optimal length to merge, I think you may struggle to make many more routes work without huge changes to bus priority in the city and on key corridors into the city.
 

158756

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It's kind of inconsistent in where it shows routes which overlap to form a frequent service. E.g. It shows the 575/576 between Bolton and Horwich, but not the 97/98/99 between Shudehill and Prestwich. And the busway routes are shown in full despite the Leigh/Atherton ends not being high frequency.
 

Park47515

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It's kind of inconsistent in where it shows routes which overlap to form a frequent service. E.g. It shows the 575/576 between Bolton and Horwich, but not the 97/98/99 between Shudehill and Prestwich. And the busway routes are shown in full despite the Leigh/Atherton ends not being high frequency.
Same with the 117/118/119 which are the same as far as Four ways.
 

Tim33160

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TfGM have created a new map showing all bus services (and trams) that operate a high frequency service of every 12 minutes or better


Also some interesting stats that journeys on the 43, 143 & 192 make up 10% of the total journeys across the Bee Network
Of note:
Ex Magic Bus 143 {Piccadilly - West Didsbury) is a short working of 43 (Piccadilly - West Didsbury - Airport) - which in turn is a 24/7 service
Be interested to see the "league table" of passengers on the top ten services!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Will the decision to truncate the 88 service route to only run between Altrincham and Knutsford be a permanent Bee Network decision, with the Knutsford to Macclesfield section being renumbered 87 and under the auspices of Cheshire East Council (which of course all that section is in that county). There was talk of passengers being to travel from Altrincham past Knutsford, but will that have cost implications for passengers?
 

mangad

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Will the decision to truncate the 88 service route to only run between Altrincham and Knutsford be a permanent Bee Network decision, with the Knutsford to Macclesfield section being renumbered 87 and under the auspices of Cheshire East Council (which of course all that section is in that county). There was talk of passengers being to travel from Altrincham past Knutsford, but will that have cost implications for passengers?
88's not a Bee Network bus, and the timetable on D&G's website shows connections. The TfGM copy of the timetable says "customers will still be able to make through journeys to/from Altrincham"
 

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