Revenue Protection at Brighton

[Starmill]

I hope so, every time I travel to St. Pancras on my 1st class Interrail from Brighton it is packed in 1st class both ways. Be nice to know who should genuinely be in there

I've had a ticket inspection in first class on Thameslink between London Bridge and London St Pancras myself. I could hardly believe it. Even the RPI seemed surprised when I presented the self same type of ticket you mention!

 

[Sealink]

I saw a team of around 8 revenue protection officers with quad GTR logos on the footbridge at East Croydon on Thursday they then caught a Tlink to Bedford checking first class until St Pancras where they spent around 30 mins before joining a southbound Brighton train and checking tickets.

Seems to be like a mobile hit squad

I also saw some new staff at East Croydon with revenue support branding assisting normal gateline staff.

Is this signs of increased revenue protection on GTR?

I see Thameslink still have "first class" in the last carriage of the train as declassified..

 

[Chriso]

Yes they were up front (busy peak train) although on the return train south they got on at each end of the 6 car section and proceeded to check tickets in a pincer style movement meeting in the middle

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2025 ==

I have not seen this team before usually just 2 RPI in Thameslink livery

 

[riceuten]

I had my ‘ticket’ inspected on the train between Blackfriars and London Bridge, and the ‘inspector’ said she didn’t have the right software on her phone to read my KeyGo card, and looked at me expectantly. Not entirely sure what she wanted me to do.

And I was sat next to, but not in the declassified First class section at the rear. One of the staff started telling people that they ‘needed a first class ticket to sit in the first class section’ until a colleague tactfully pointed out how it worked on TL and the notices to that effect in that section.

It worries me that the training for this kind of work is so poor if you can’t even get that correct.

 

[Sonic1234]

It worries me that the training for this kind of work is so poor if you can’t even get that correct.

This is the big worry with revenue protection and rail staff in general - they don't understand the rules themselves.

Recently had to explain what break of journey was to a SWR RPI

It becomes a nervous experience when you are doing something allowed but irregular, like legitimately travelling on the wrong train on an Advance or relying on ticket acceptance.

 

[riceuten]

This is the big worry with revenue protection and rail staff in general - they don't understand the rules themselves.

Recently had to explain what break of journey was to a SWR RPI

It becomes a nervous experience when you are doing something allowed but irregular, like legitimately travelling on the wrong train on an Advance or relying on ticket acceptance.

I’ve had this too - thankfully a more experienced RPO was present and explained to the staff member that what I did was completely legitimate, you have to rely on the latter to avoid being fined.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I’ve had this too - thankfully a more experienced RPO was present and explained to the staff member that what I did was completely legitimate, you have to rely on the latter to avoid being fined.

That was very fortunate, because with some ill advised inspectors unaware of legotimate loopholes, they would happily have started issuing penalty fares if they were not told by some means that sitting in the back first class is completely legitimate. Obviously, many of those penalty fares could probably be overturned on appeal if GTR got a report about what happened, but sooner or later, I can imagine all of these ckecks going one step too far and start punishing legitimate passengers in a financial way.

 

[johncrossley]

How many years do we have to read about rogue inspectors on here before any proper action is taken? There should be publicly advertised sackings with a loss of pension, similar to what happens when police officers get sacked. When a police officer is sacked, it appears on the news and the relevant police force issues an apology.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

How many years do we have to read about rogue inspectors on here before any proper action is taken? There should be publicly advertised sackings with a loss of pension, similar to what happens when police officers get sacked. When a police officer is sacked, it appears on the news and the relevant police force issues an apology.

Unfortunately, in this day and age where so much money is being lost by running trains, it will likely be more and more, and these rogue inspectors are probably cheaper to hire than proper staff with proper training about how the whole system works.

Lest we forget, they are called "revenue protection" staff for a reason, as lots of expenditure is lost on trains, and if they are not making any revenue off them, then that doesn't help Rachel Reeves who would love to cut rail subsidies to fill in her black hole.

While I disagree with the model they are pushing (a future without rail subsidies), as more expensive trains will just put people off, as it is already doing in a post-COVID world with already extortionate fares, it is the world we live in, and sadly it isn't going anywhere in England (and probably Wales for that matter).

It has been very interesting however for me staying in Scotland for these last few days, because it seems like there, it is very standard practice that many people just buy tickets on the trains, even if ticket machines are available. They also are generally much more forgiving if you have the wrong ticket, where in Scotland they help you get the right ticket, not instantly hand you a £100 penalty fare with no thought as will inevitably happen.

 

[jon0844]

I had my ‘ticket’ inspected on the train between Blackfriars and London Bridge, and the ‘inspector’ said she didn’t have the right software on her phone to read my KeyGo card, and looked at me expectantly. Not entirely sure what she wanted me to do.

And I was sat next to, but not in the declassified First class section at the rear. One of the staff started telling people that they ‘needed a first class ticket to sit in the first class section’ until a colleague tactfully pointed out how it worked on TL and the notices to that effect in that section.

It worries me that the training for this kind of work is so poor if you can’t even get that correct.

Wow! Given the 700s were declassified at the back from day one (2016?) that's a shocking lack of knowledge. Were they definitely revenue protection officers, or Travelsafe officers (yellow hi-vis) or Ticketless survey people (usually wearing purple)?

 

[infobleep]

That was very fortunate, because with some ill advised inspectors unaware of legotimate loopholes, they would happily have started issuing penalty fares if they were not told by some means that sitting in the back first class is completely legitimate. Obviously, many of those penalty fares could probably be overturned on appeal if GTR got a report about what happened, but sooner or later, I can imagine all of these ckecks going one step too far and start punishing legitimate passengers in a financial way.

Is GTR allowing people to ait un an area they have declassified as legotimate loophole?

I would argue it's not even a loophole. They have allowed it.

 

[Sonic1234]

I’ve had this too - thankfully a more experienced RPO was present and explained to the staff member that what I did was completely legitimate, you have to rely on the latter to avoid being fined.

Which is, at best, a poor and worrying experience for the customer. At worst, the customer gets sanctioned for something perfectly legitimate. We've seen cases on the forum where the office doesn't check, it's a machine that cases get put into and processed.

When I had an RPI not understand break of journey, I was already past the gateline, had a clear exit and didn't have a ticket purchased online, so could have run if needed to. But a fare-paying customer should not be in that position.

 

[Russel]

Just to confirm, is the REAR first class compartment on Thameslink 700's still declassified?

 

[duffield]

Just to confirm, is the REAR first class compartment on Thameslink 700's still declassified?

Yes, the rear is declassified on 700's on all services all the time.

 

[Bikeman78]

It was always 10 minutes for anything involving GX, it was only the reduced 4 minute connection for Southern to Southern that was removed (so it's now always 10 minues).

And while some people argued for a higher connection time, I think most people were actually of the opinion that GTR artificially delaying people enough to warrant changing the MCT was insanity and unnacceptable

I would always regard four minutes as insanity. I would never count on making that. What was the thinking behind the different allowance for Southern to Southern Interchange? Shorter trains? I.e. not having to walk from the back of a 12 car.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just to confirm, is the REAR first class compartment on Thameslink 700's still declassified?

Yes, the rear is declassified on 700's on all services all the time.

And, in keeping with the thread subject, what is the rear of a train arriving at Brighton is not the same coach as the rear of a train departing Brighton!

 

[Jan Mayen]

Just as well Thameslink don't divert and reverse via Lewes!

 

[MrJeeves]

Just as well Thameslink don't divert and reverse via Lewes!

I think they have once before...!

I believe Brighton drivers do sign Brighton to Wivelsfield via Lewes?

 

[infobleep]

I think they have once before...!

I believe Brighton drivers do sign Brighton to Wivelsfield via Lewes?

Well passengers would just need to shift ends at Lewis before it departs.

 

[duffield]

Well passengers would just need to shift ends at Lewis before it departs.

Now that would be a particularly nasty application of the "rear declassified" rule, if you rode all the way from London to Lewes in the correct, rear declassified coach and then got penalised by a revenue inspector immediately after leaving Lewes because the train had reversed for that small portion of the journey.

 

[infobleep]

Now that would be a particularly nasty application of the "rear declassified" rule, if you rode all the way from London to Lewes in the correct, rear declassified coach and then got penalised by a revenue inspector immediately after leaving Lewes because the train had reversed for that small portion of the journey.

It would generate lots of free publicity too.

 

[BurtonM]

But a fare-paying customer should not be in that position.

Sad to hear things haven't progressed.


I once had a Northern in-house revenue agent ask me 'how do you know about that' in an accusatory tone because I mentioned a zero fare excess while they were trying to accuse me of overtravelling: I wasn't, I had a valid ticket.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Well passengers would just need to shift ends at Lewis before it departs.

Well technically speaking, they actually have to reverse beyond the station, because Lewes has 5 platforms, 3 for the Coastway line to *London*, and 2 for the Mainline to Brighton. Technically speaking, that would mean when departing from Brighton, you could legally be in declassified first class, but when the train reached its first calling point at Lewes, it would now be classified as first class under their rules and issue you a penalty fare as you are now in the front first class, and that is only if they choose to call at Lewes, since as they cant reverse in the station, they could easily then pass through the station without stopping again only minutes before or after the stop at a junction to reverse the train, meaning the first calling point would be Wivelsfield or Haywards Heath, although that does give plenty of time for people who were sitting in first class to both swap ends.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if the PIS would change with a reversal. Could it mean the message now shows at the front until it reaches the destination and when the new code is entered for the next journey?

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I wonder if the PIS would change with a reversal. Could it mean the message now shows at the front until it reaches the destination and when the new code is entered for the next journey?

That is technically an interesting idea though as to how such a system would work if a "rear first class always declassified" would work on a route that involves any reversals, such as if they did something like that on the East Coastway where trains need to reverse at Eastbourne, say if the next generation of Southern trains in c.2053 did a rule similar to Thameslink trains when it came to first class.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Either don't bother with First Class at all, or don't declassify at all.
Personally, I favour the second option (along with reasonably priced tickets).

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally, I favour the second option (along with reasonably priced tickets).

And more revenue protection to enforce it.

 

[infobleep]

Well technically speaking, they actually have to reverse beyond the station, because Lewes has 5 platforms, 3 for the Coastway line to Brighton, and 2 for the Mainline to Brighton. Technically speaking, that would mean when departing from Brighton, you could legally be in declassified first class, but when the train reached its first calling point at Lewes, it would now be classified as first class under their rules and issue you a penalty fare as you are now in the front first class, and that is only if they choose to call at Lewes, since as they cant reverse in the station, they could easily then pass through the station without stopping again only minutes before or after the stop at a junction to reverse the train, meaning the first calling point would be Wivelsfield or Haywards Heath, although that does give plenty of time for people who were sitting in first class to both swap ends.

Thanks for that. I don't recall doing the diversion services so wasn't aware it was done outside the station.

I should take one sometime.

 

[75A]

Well technically speaking, they actually have to reverse beyond the station, because Lewes has 5 platforms, 3 for the Coastway line to Brighton, and 2 for the Mainline to Brighton. Technically speaking, that would mean when departing from Brighton, you could legally be in declassified first class, but when the train reached its first calling point at Lewes, it would now be classified as first class under their rules and issue you a penalty fare as you are now in the front first class, and that is only if they choose to call at Lewes, since as they cant reverse in the station, they could easily then pass through the station without stopping again only minutes before or after the stop at a junction to reverse the train, meaning the first calling point would be Wivelsfield or Haywards Heath, although that does give plenty of time for people who were sitting in first class to both swap ends.

3 platforms on the East Coastway Brighton to Seaford or Eastbourne route and two between Keymer Jcn (Brighton Main Line north) and Eastbourne.

 

[paul1609]

Thanks for that. I don't recall doing the diversion services so wasn't aware it was done outside the station.

I should take one sometime.

Except in the middle of the night I think it's only used very rarely now. The norm seems to be for the Coastway West London service to be reversed so it calls at the stations to Littlehampton then via the Arun Valley to Horsham and Gatwick. I suspect that pathing the services via a 2 track railway from Brighton to Balcombe Tunnel Junction with a reversal outside the station at Lewes is quite difficult.