Wakefield Kirkgate set for £3.5m improvements

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that you should have the honour of opening this new thread, because you thought of the idea first.

 

[IanXC]

I've always thuoght that the so-called 'Ponte shuttle' (Wakefield Kirkgate-Knottingley) should run through to Goole - thereby connecting with Northern services between Hull-Doncaster. Places such as Whitley Bridge and Snaith are seeing large numbers of new houses, mainly due to their proximity to the M62. Sadly, because they are over the invisible boundary and into the public transport hating North Yorkshire a new service hasn't got a prayer - and that applied before the current economic downturn.

Goole and Snaith are in East Yorkshire - but unfortunately for them not near enough to Beverley for East Riding of Yorkshire Council to be remotely interested in where they are or what goes on there....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Goole and Snaith are in East Yorkshire - but unfortunately for them not near enough to Beverley for East Riding of Yorkshire Council to be remotely interested in where they are or what goes on there....

The same can be said for the Glossop area whose residents have had funding for tendered bus services withdrawn by Derbyshire County Council in Derby, which seems to be nowhere near Glossop.

Back on thread, a Wakefield Kirkgate service to Goole would make for a conections improvement for this area.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd love to see regular services on the Goole - Knottingley section. However, I'd have thought that it would be more successful if the Leeds - Knottingley service were extended rather than Wakefield.

 

[tbtc]

I'd love to see regular services on the Goole - Knottingley section. However, I'd have thought that it would be more successful if the Leeds - Knottingley service were extended rather than Wakefield.

I think you are right.

There's not a lot of population between Knottingley and Goole either.

If you wanted to improve services in that neck of the woods without needing dozens of new units, may I suggest:

1. Double the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingley service to half hourly

2. Cut the Leeds - Castleford - Kirkgate - Barnsley - Sheffield service into a Castleford - Sheffield one (Leeds passengers already have the two "semi fast" services each hour to/from Barnsley etc)

Simple.

 

[tom1649]

The same can be said for the Glossop area whose residents have had funding for tendered bus services withdrawn by Derbyshire County Council in Derby, which seems to be nowhere near Glossop.

I have to correct you there, Derbyshire County Council is actually based in Matlock, the county town of Derbyshire.

 

[Whistler40145]

About time something was done with Wakefield Kirkgate station. It isn't just the station, but the surrounding area that isn't very appealing & welcoming.

 

[tom1649]

Regarding Wakefield Kirkgate, it should never have been de-staffed in the first place. There are many smaller stations with lower usage which are still staffed.

 

[yorksrob]

I think you are right.

There's not a lot of population between Knottingley and Goole either.

If you wanted to improve services in that neck of the woods without needing dozens of new units, may I suggest:

1. Double the Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingley service to half hourly

2. Cut the Leeds - Castleford - Kirkgate - Barnsley - Sheffield service into a Castleford - Sheffield one (Leeds passengers already have the two "semi fast" services each hour to/from Barnsley etc)

Simple.

A couple of interesting suggestions, although I'm not sure Leeds - Knottingley would justify two trains an hour at the mo. One of the Semi-fast Leeds - Sheffields would have to become a stopper so that Normy and Darton passengers still had a direct train to Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

A couple of interesting suggestions, although I'm not sure Leeds - Knottingley would justify two trains an hour at the mo. One of the Semi-fast Leeds - Sheffields would have to become a stopper so that Normy and Darton passengers still had a direct train to Leeds.

Its more about doubling the service from Leeds to Glasshoughton/ Pontefract (but, if you are doing that then they might as well continue to Knottingley). Pontefract should really have a second hourly service to Leeds (especially as nobody for Barnsley/Sheffield needs to travel via Castleford now there's two "fast" services each hour).

Darton would still be served by the hourly Sheffield - Castleford service, all you'd need to do is stop one of the Sheffield - Leeds services at Normanton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have to correct you there, Derbyshire County Council is actually based in Matlock, the county town of Derbyshire.

Thank you. I cannot believe that I made this mistake...I must have the "Derby" part of the name of the County Council in mind...and I was incensed when I made my posting.

 

[Invincibles]

Around Kirkgate it's self, yes.

However, Leeds, Sheffield, Hare Park Jn (Doncaster - Leeds line) and Shaftholm Jn (ECML) are all pretty busy, especially the first 2.

There is room though for a 1/2 hourly Huddersfield - Wakefield - Knottingley - Goole - Hull service, although if anyone would want to use it, is an entirely different matter!

Could it make sense to run the Manchester - Hull train this way and then extend the Leeds - Selby on to Hull (using stock that is released by the appropriate removal of the grand tour)?

Just thinking that would link Manchester to Wakefield and Goole in a more meaningful way and would allow capacity on the Hull trains.

The path between Huddersfield and Leeds could be filled with a Northern train as well I think (taking a Dewsbury stop from a different train and giving good capacity between Huddersfield and Leeds on a "fast" train)

 

[spionkop64]

Could it make sense to run the Manchester - Hull train this way and then extend the Leeds - Selby on to Hull (using stock that is released by the appropriate removal of the grand tour)?

Just thinking that would link Manchester to Wakefield and Goole in a more meaningful way and would allow capacity on the Hull trains.

The path between Huddersfield and Leeds could be filled with a Northern train as well I think (taking a Dewsbury stop from a different train and giving good capacity between Huddersfield and Leeds on a "fast" train)

If a TPE was to avoid Leeds I think it would be a much better idea for it to be a York bound service. Those trains have a significant amount of people on board who are travelling through Leeds and are forced to suffer overcrowding due to people joining for quick dashes Huddersfield/Dewsbury-Leeds and York-Leeds. A Manchester-York TPE could call Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford, thereby adding signifcant new markets to the TPE franchise and making new connections. Indeed, it would surely reduce the journey time from Manchester-York? As Invincbles suggested a fast Northern Huddersfield-Leeds could pick up the gap in the timetable (indeed wasn't such a service has been mooted in the RUS?)

Anyway, back to the Wakefield Kirkgate-Goole idea. I doff my geographical cap to IanXC regarding Snaith and Goole being in East Yorkshire. Whitley Bridge is in North Yorkshire, which illustrates the problems when services have to cross these invisble boundaries. To run the above service would involve three council's! Given that all three represent three very different areas, it would be nigh impossible to get agreement. I've always thought that half of North Yorkshire's problems lie in the enormous area it covers. Skipton to Whitby is half of England!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If a TPE was to avoid Leeds I think it would be a much better idea for it to be a York bound service. Those trains have a significant amount of people on board who are travelling through Leeds and are forced to suffer overcrowding due to people joining for quick dashes Huddersfield/Dewsbury-Leeds and York-Leeds.

A Manchester-York TPE could call Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford, thereby adding signifcant new markets to the TPE franchise and making new connections. Indeed, it would surely reduce the journey time from Manchester-York? As Invincbles suggested a fast Northern Huddersfield-Leeds could pick up the gap in the timetable (indeed wasn't such a service has been mooted in the RUS?)

The service that you have described above has much to recommend it. The only problem being that First TPE see Leeds as a hub for passenger attractment on the services to Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Scarborough that pass eastwards through Leeds. They would be very quick to produce figures of existing passenger loadings and a financial returns where Leeds is concerned. Saying that, their franchaise is coming to the end of its term.

 

[Welshman]

Has it ever had long distance, intercity services in the days of BR?

Sorry - I've only just found this thread!

In addition to the ones already mentioned by Flymo -

My summer 1962 ER timetable shows there was also a 10pm Leeds Central-King's Cross, which called at Westgate from 10.17pm-10.25pm, then Kirkgate from 10.28pm-10.33pm, before ambling off to Doncaster at 11.02pm, and finally arriving into the Cross at 3.25am. Perhaps Kirkgate was easier than Westgate for loading parcels/mail?

On a Saturday, there was an interesting 7.41am from Leeds Central to King's Cross, which stopped at Kirkgate[but not Westgate -presumably passed through] from 8.01-8.09am to attach a portion from Halifax and Huddersfield, plus an 8.57am Kirkgate to Skegness and a 10.03am to Cleethorpes.

Northwards, there was a 1.15pm King's Cross - Leeds, which called at Kirkgate [4.48-4.56pm] to detatch a Huddersfield and Halifax portion, then ran non-stop to Leeds Central [again through Westgate?], and the returning Sats only Cleethorpes [4.23-4.28pm] and Skegness [5.29-5.32pm].

There was also a Liverpool Exchange - Manchester Victoria - Calder Valley- Brighouse-Kirkgate-Normanton-Castleford-York service and a few shorter Manchester/Sowerby Bridge-York services. Interesting how history repeats itself, and we now have proposals that some of the TPE North services should revert to what was part of the old L&Y main line!

Finally, at the risk of boring everyone rigid, there were also through Bradford Exchange-Batley-Wakefield Westgate-Wakefield Kirkgate-Pontefract-Goole services, and one train, leaving Bradford about 11am IIRC, even went through to Hull this way.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Sorry - I've only just found this thread!

In addition to the ones already mentioned by Flymo -

My summer 1962 ER timetable shows there was also a 10pm Leeds Central-King's Cross, which called at Westgate from 10.17pm-10.25pm, then Kirkgate from 10.28pm-10.33pm, before ambling off to Doncaster at 11.02pm, and finally arriving into the Cross at 3.25am. Perhaps Kirkgate was easier than Westgate for loading parcels/mail?

On a Saturday, there was an interesting 7.41am from Leeds Central to King's Cross, which stopped at Kirkgate[but not Westgate -presumably passed through] from 8.01-8.09am to attach a portion from Halifax and Huddersfield, plus an 8.57am Kirkgate to Skegness and a 10.03am to Cleethorpes.

Northwards, there was a 1.15pm King's Cross - Leeds, which called at Kirkgate [4.48-4.56pm] to detatch a Huddersfield and Halifax portion, then ran non-stop to Leeds Central [again through Westgate?], and the returning Sats only Cleethorpes [4.23-4.28pm] and Skegness [5.29-5.32pm].

There was also a Liverpool Exchange - Manchester Victoria - Calder Valley- Brighouse-Kirkgate-Normanton-Castleford-York service and a few shorter Manchester/Sowerby Bridge-York services. Interesting how history repeats itself, and we now have proposals that some of the TPE North services should revert to what was part of the old L&Y main line!

Finally, at the risk of boring everyone rigid, there were also through Bradford Exchange-Batley-Wakefield Westgate-Wakefield Kirkgate-Pontefract-Goole services, and one train, leaving Bradford about 11am IIRC, even went through to Hull this way.

Thank you for that - very interesting. I find old timetables fascinating - particularly when compared to today's services.

 

[Invincibles]

The service that you have described above has much to recommend it. The only problem being that First TPE see Leeds as a hub for passenger attractment on the services to Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Scarborough that pass eastwards through Leeds. They would be very quick to produce figures of existing passenger loadings and a financial returns where Leeds is concerned. Saying that, their franchaise is coming to the end of its term.

Well Leeds is a big market for them, and I do understand why they would not like the idea of a train that misses Leeds.

However, if there was to be a merger of TPE and Northern then having the extra Huddersfield - Leeds - York fast train running in the current path of the diverted "TPE" would continue to give the company the same market as well as adding the new one.

I must confess I had not thought about connections back onto the ECML to go north and just thought of Hull as the train to divert.

 

[tbtc]

Well Leeds is a big market for them, and I do understand why they would not like the idea of a train that misses Leeds.

However, if there was to be a merger of TPE and Northern then having the extra Huddersfield - Leeds - York fast train running in the current path of the diverted "TPE" would continue to give the company the same market as well as adding the new one.

I must confess I had not thought about connections back onto the ECML to go north and just thought of Hull as the train to divert.

Well, if TPE get the fifth path which they have asked for (in my eyes we should have longer trains instead, a fifteen minute service is already good enough) then I'd like to see something like Manchester - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford - York (chopping the existing Sheffield - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds service and the "Grand Tour" wouldn't run Huddersfield - Wakefield, various reshufflings of local Northern services).

Whilst Manchester - Leeds is obviously busy, its not all "Leeds" demand - taking the Wakefield/ Castleford passengers onto a dedicated service would avoid them needing to to into/out of Leeds.

Plus Barnsley and the Dearne Valley get a better connection to York and the ECML (again, avoiding the need to go via Leeds).

I don't think diverting an existing Leeds service would work, it'd only make sense if this was the (much discussed) fifth path.

 

[spionkop64]

Well, if TPE get the fifth path which they have asked for (in my eyes we should have longer trains instead, a fifteen minute service is already good enough) then I'd like to see something like Manchester - Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford - York (chopping the existing Sheffield - Wakefield - Castleford - Leeds service and the "Grand Tour" wouldn't run Huddersfield - Wakefield, various reshufflings of local Northern services).

Whilst Manchester - Leeds is obviously busy, its not all "Leeds" demand - taking the Wakefield/ Castleford passengers onto a dedicated service would avoid them needing to to into/out of Leeds.

Plus Barnsley and the Dearne Valley get a better connection to York and the ECML (again, avoiding the need to go via Leeds).

I don't think diverting an existing Leeds service would work, it'd only make sense if this was the (much discussed) fifth path.

The fifth path is, of course, already planned to be Leeds-Manchester. There is talk of a sixth path! Though goodness knows how they intend to squeeze that in. Anyway, how about a Crewe-Stockport-Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Castleford-York.

The real issue with the fascination with Leeds, and Manchester, are the artificial constructs that are the 'City Regions'. These unelected 'regions' only further encourage centralisation. The 'everything into Leeds' mantra is unchallegened. It is a policy that leaves potential untapped. In Yorkshire increasing services could see a rebirth of interchange stations such as Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate and, here's a wild idea, Church Fenton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The fifth path is, of course, already planned to be Leeds-Manchester. There is talk of a sixth path! Though goodness knows how they intend to squeeze that in. Anyway, how about a Crewe-Stockport-Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Castleford-York.

The real issue with the fascination with Leeds, and Manchester, are the artificial constructs that are the 'City Regions'. These unelected 'regions' only further encourage centralisation. The 'everything into Leeds' mantra is unchallegened. It is a policy that leaves potential untapped. In Yorkshire increasing services could see a rebirth of interchange stations such as Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate and, here's a wild idea, Church Fenton.

Not such a wild idea. Church Fenton is already a four-platform station with immediate links to two main rail routes.

 

[tbtc]

The fifth path is, of course, already planned to be Leeds-Manchester. There is talk of a sixth path! Though goodness knows how they intend to squeeze that in. Anyway, how about a Crewe-Stockport-Huddersfield-Wakefield Kirkgate-Castleford-York.

The real issue with the fascination with Leeds, and Manchester, are the artificial constructs that are the 'City Regions'. These unelected 'regions' only further encourage centralisation. The 'everything into Leeds' mantra is unchallegened. It is a policy that leaves potential untapped. In Yorkshire increasing services could see a rebirth of interchange stations such as Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate and, here's a wild idea, Church Fenton.

I agree that those three would make good interchange locations, good thinking

 

[spionkop64]

Not such a wild idea. Church Fenton is already a four-platform station with immediate links to two main rail routes.

Church Fenton must have been a major interchange station at some point in its history. Before the buildings were, disgracefully in my eyes, knocked down in the 90s Church Fenton was an imposing station. Was it the meeting place between different companies? After all the connections are not that obvious - or were there closed lines in the vicinity that made Fenton what it was? History lesson please!

 

[yorksrob]

The real issue with the fascination with Leeds, and Manchester, are the artificial constructs that are the 'City Regions'. These unelected 'regions' only further encourage centralisation. The 'everything into Leeds' mantra is unchallegened. It is a policy that leaves potential untapped. In Yorkshire increasing services could see a rebirth of interchange stations such as Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate and, here's a wild idea, Church Fenton.

The City regions are only artificial constructs in as much as any administrative boundary is an artificial construct. For many years cities such as Leeds and Manchester have been becoming more and more important as centres of employment and culture, so it only makes sense to try and arrange services such as transport to take account of this. I live in Wakefield yet I work in Leeds, also if I wish to see a music gig or a play I will probably end up going to Leeds or further afield.

That said a direct train between Normanton and York would be handy at times.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The City regions are only artificial constructs in as much as any administrative boundary is an artificial construct. For many years cities such as Leeds and Manchester have been becoming more and more important as centres of employment and culture, so it only makes sense to try and arrange services such as transport to take account of this. I live in Wakefield yet I work in Leeds, also if I wish to see a music gig or a play I will probably end up going to Leeds or further afield.

That said a direct train between Normanton and York would be handy at times.

from wakefield you should be off to sheffield not leeds!

Leeds could do with a second station now to handle demand and manchester with a third, that shows how big leeds is becomming. It also has something to do with driving through centre fo leeds is suicidal.

 

[spasmj]

Church Fenton must have been a major interchange station at some point in its history. Before the buildings were, disgracefully in my eyes, knocked down in the 90s Church Fenton was an imposing station. Was it the meeting place between different companies? After all the connections are not that obvious - or were there closed lines in the vicinity that made Fenton what it was? History lesson please!

Church Fenton - Harrogate Line

 

[spionkop64]

The City regions are only artificial constructs in as much as any administrative boundary is an artificial construct. For many years cities such as Leeds and Manchester have been becoming more and more important as centres of employment and culture, so it only makes sense to try and arrange services such as transport to take account of this. I live in Wakefield yet I work in Leeds, also if I wish to see a music gig or a play I will probably end up going to Leeds or further afield.

That said a direct train between Normanton and York would be handy at times.

I agree largely with what you say, but the problem is that the city region idea reinforces the centralist patterns and only accelerates the demise of secondary towns and cities. If they could get away with it I'm sure Metro would be renamed Transport for Leeds.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Church Fenton (with buildings) in the Seventies. Definitely quite imposing...

... Compared to the Naughties:

 

[Max]

Diverting Manchester-Hull away from Leeds would be a poor decision in my view. There is significant demand for a service between Hull and Leeds, but little demand for services to Goole and Wakefield. Goole itself, despite being in East Yorkshire, is much more aligned with Doncaster than Hull in terms of shops and services, and the identity of its local people. When Humberside was split in the 1990s it would have made far more sense for Goole, Snaith etc. to come under the jurisdiction of Doncaster.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Church Fenton (with buildings) in the Seventies. Definitely quite imposing...

... Compared to the Naughties:

I can remember that from the 70s. A day out was a trip to York on the then regular Sheffield to York via Moorthorpe stopping service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Church Fenton (with buildings) in the Seventies. Definitely quite imposing...

Thank you for posting the first picture, that brought memories of the buildings and canopies that were once to be found at Church Fenton. I still remember taking steam trains from York outwards through Church Fenton on both main routes which goes back 20 years earlier than this picture. How we elderly forum members reminisce.

Unfortunately, when the First TPE service from Manchester Airport towards York takes the line from East Garforth to join the line at Church Fenton, your second picture speaks volumes!!:cry:

The only consolation being is that all four platforms are intact.