Avanti dispatchers not wearing high vis jackets

[Krokodil]

My TOC rules are that we have mandatory dispatch assistance at two stations (three during morning peak). Everywhere else, if dispatcher is not present I am authorised and trained to dispatch alone. They are generally there to assist with crowding more than anything.

Any Avanti stations (well all the ones I'm familiar with) would come under "mandatory dispatch" 24hrs per day. I've found myself waiting at Crewe on many occasions for a dispatcher and just have to lump it. If the staff go sick with no cover then the station closes.

There are actually electronic "whistle boxes" that don't require the use of the mouth, they are just as loud! One of the Isle of Wight guards uses one.

Manchester Oxford Road were using them during covid but they didn't really stick around afterwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

If ever there are staffing issues, in which a call to the relevant department of said TOC needs to be made.

Control can authorise a guard to self-dispatch (and there may be local instructions in some locations too) but that's completely different to just going "there's no one here, I'll just go". That would get a guard taken off trains here.

 

[Undiscovered]

I find that dispatchers sometimes give an acknowledgement with the baton, which is especially visible when stepping down from the train (we have to step onto platform first, before releasing doors). That helps locating them, and also allows that brief window to communicate if I need a word with them. Plus, you tend to spot the regular faces of them too.

Avanti are moving to LED batons too, so there's no mistaking them in the dispatch process.

 

[dangie]

…..Hi Vis is overused these days.

True. I’m not knocking Health & Safety one bit, but the overuse dilutes its effictiveness. Whenever I see a freight train pass, the driver invariably is wearing hi-viz. Now I can understand it whilst working in the yard, but is it compulsory while driving the train?

A while ago I was walking along a local stretch of the Trent & Mersey Canal. There were a group of volunteers working on the towpath. They were all wear hi-viz tabards. I chatted to them for a while and asked why they were wearing hi-viz. They said they had to, to comply with the Health & Safety Rules. Now I totally understand it if working beside a busy road with speeding vehicles, but surely not by the side of a canal. I’m pretty sure a barge isn’t going to mow you down on the towpath?

 

[CC 72100]

If you try to despatch yourself solo at my station you'll quickly see yourself taken upstairs.

Why don't you try looking for a person holding a dispatch baton first. That'll probably help you.

Wow that was strong.

As had been pointed out, other TOCs may have stations where dispatch by platform staff is planned, but not mandatory. And of course this should be properly messaged out but we all in the real world know this doesn't always happen.

I remember self-dispatching from a location where my TOC permitted it where I had been dispatched from a few hours earlier. I had 2 mins dwell time and couldn't find the dispatcher, even went as far as checking their office (no sign of life). So I self-dispatched at right time (as permitted) and found the dispatcher on my next walk through the train as it was their train home!

So it absolutely does happen, and just remember that some TOCs have different policies to yours.

 

[sh24]

For any activity, someone has to write a risk assessment. Including hi-viz is a lazy way to "comply" without actually assessing the risk clearly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For any activity, someone has to write a risk assessment. Including hi-viz is a lazy way to "comply" without actually assessing the risk clearly.

It does have some advantages, such as making the dispatcher very easy to see on the platform for anyone needing to attract their attention, either for safety reasons or because they want to ask them a question while they aren't dispatching (as most dispatchers also fulfil that role when not doing something safety critical). The Virgin red coats were also good for this, but the rather subdued Avanti dark green much less so.

 

[185]

If you try to despatch yourself solo at my station you'll quickly see yourself taken upstairs. Why don't you try looking for a person holding a dispatch baton first. That'll probably help you.

There are a high number of locations across various tocs where no dispatch staff allows for self dispatch. Generally these are the ones where the requirement is borderline, but the big stops are generally mandatory dispatch.

 

[weastebusdepot]

Yesterday a school trip passed through the public area where I was working with all the kids and teachers wearing yellow hi-vis vests. Presumably there is some educational risk assessment that now demands it. Or maybe it's an easy way for the teachers to count all the hi-vis vests within sight to make sure no one has gone missing... in which case they might have counted my colleague and I and found they had two extra!

 

[truecrimelover]

There are actually electronic "whistle boxes" that don't require the use of the mouth, they are just as loud! One of the Isle of Wight guards uses one.

Ah very interesting, I never knew that! Nothing that high tech where I work!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yesterday a school trip passed through the public area where I was working with all the kids and teachers wearing yellow hi-vis vests. Presumably there is some educational risk assessment that now demands it. Or maybe it's an easy way for the teachers to count all the hi-vis vests within sight to make sure no one has gone missing... in which case they might have counted my colleague and I and found they had two extra!

I think schools indeed use them because it makes it easy to see the whole group. It also slightly improves safety when walking near or on roads. Having walked on roads with and without it's amazing how much extra room you are given with.

 

[Krokodil]

Yesterday a school trip passed through the public area where I was working with all the kids and teachers wearing yellow hi-vis vests. Presumably there is some educational risk assessment that now demands it. Or maybe it's an easy way for the teachers to count all the hi-vis vests within sight to make sure no one has gone missing... in which case they might have counted my colleague and I and found they had two extra!

Where multiple school trips converge it can make identifying your own school's kids more difficult because they're all in hivis these days. Whereas when I was at school we were blue, another school was red etc.

 

[LUYMun]

Yesterday a school trip passed through the public area where I was working with all the kids and teachers wearing yellow hi-vis vests. Presumably there is some educational risk assessment that now demands it. Or maybe it's an easy way for the teachers to count all the hi-vis vests within sight to make sure no one has gone missing... in which case they might have counted my colleague and I and found they had two extra!

I presume the group was primary school age. About ten years ago, when I was in secondary school, our (non-uniformed) trip to London by train did not necessitate hi vis vests, even when another large group of children from another school boarded the same carriage and briefly mixed in with us.

 

[Galvanize]

When I was Platform staff several years ago…we wore Orange HiVis vests as per company policy. However, as a number of us were PTS trained, and were qualified to split and attach EMUs with High level jumpers, then wearing a Hi-Vis was essential.

They did however get the nickname “Question magnets” due to the fact passengers could spot us from a mile off and ask us all manner of questions under the sun.

Trainee Platform staff under supervision were asked to wear a Green Hi-vis.

 

[The exile]

True. I’m not knocking Health & Safety one bit, but the overuse dilutes its effictiveness. Whenever I see a freight train pass, the driver invariably is wearing hi-viz. Now I can understand it whilst working in the yard, but is it compulsory while driving the train?

A while ago I was walking along a local stretch of the Trent & Mersey Canal. There were a group of volunteers working on the towpath. They were all wear hi-viz tabards. I chatted to them for a while and asked why they were wearing hi-viz. They said they had to, to comply with the Health & Safety Rules. Now I totally understand it if working beside a busy road with speeding vehicles, but surely not by the side of a canal. I’m pretty sure a barge isn’t going to mow you down on the towpath?

It’s quite good for a volunteer work party - as well as performing the actual role of hi-vis (including making someone visible to someone doing something like tree-lopping) it also makes it clear who is work party and who isn’t (bearing in mind that members may never have met before).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

Where multiple school trips converge it can make identifying your own school's kids more difficult because they're all in hivis these days. Whereas when I was at school we were blue, another school was red etc.

Exactly - unintended consequence of a “good idea”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s quite good for a volunteer work party - as well as performing the actual role of hi-vis (including making someone visible to someone doing something like tree-lopping) it also makes it clear who is work party and who isn’t (bearing in mind that members may never have met before).

It's also easier to have standard rules like the usual sign on sites - "no boots, no hi-vis, no hard hat, no gloves, no safety glasses = no work" - rather than leaving it to peoples' judgement which might be wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

When I was Platform staff several years ago…we wore Orange HiVis vests as per company policy. However, as a number of us were PTS trained, and were qualified to split and attach EMUs with High level jumpers, then wearing a Hi-Vis was essential.

They did however get the nickname “Question magnets” due to the fact passengers could spot us from a mile off and ask us all manner of questions under the sun.

It certainly makes sense for staff on platforms whose job it is to deal with customer questions to be very visible. I guess if you weren't supposed to be doing that as part of your role that was an unintended consequence, though.

 

[12LDA28C]

When I was Platform staff several years ago…we wore Orange HiVis vests as per company policy. However, as a number of us were PTS trained, and were qualified to split and attach EMUs with High level jumpers, then wearing a Hi-Vis was essential.

They did however get the nickname “Question magnets” due to the fact passengers could spot us from a mile off and ask us all manner of questions under the sun.

Trainee Platform staff under supervision were asked to wear a Green Hi-vis.

Surely wearing a hi-vis was only essential though when you were carrying out that splitting and attaching, not just for your general duties when standing on the platform (notwithstanding company policy)? In the situation you describe it would be impossible to distinguish between those who were PTS trained and who were not, if everyone was in orange.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2025 ==

It certainly makes sense for staff on platforms whose job it is to deal with customer questions to be very visible. I guess if you weren't supposed to be doing that as part of your role that was an unintended consequence, though.

Indeed, and for that purpose surely a blue or green hi-vis vest is perfectly suitable.

 

[Krokodil]

Surely wearing a hi-vis was only essential though when you were carrying out that splitting and attaching, not just for your general duties when standing on the platform (notwithstanding company policy)? In the situation you describe it would be impossible to distinguish between those who were PTS trained and who were not, if everyone was in orange.

So he attaches the jumpers then before he then starts dispatching he should take his hivis off and place it where exactly?

 

[12LDA28C]

So he attaches the jumpers then before he then starts dispatching he should take his hivis off and place it where exactly?

One might reasonably assume that not every train required splitting and attaching and the vast majority of trains just required dispatch, for which a hi-vis vest was not essential.

 

[styles]

So he attaches the jumpers then before he then starts dispatching he should take his hivis off and place it where exactly?

Some common sense ought to come into play.

Policy - hi-viz need not be worn by dispatchers. Those coupling/uncoupling must wear orange hi-viz. If somebody is coupling/uncoupling and then dispatching, they may remove or keep their hi-viz as they prefer.

Most dispatchers at most stations are not coupling/uncoupling. I think the policy can be kept simple.

 

[bengley]

Disagree all you like but it has a purpose and it fits the purpose. It’s not going to change.

Thank you very much for allowing me to disagree.

How about guards wear a hi vis while on the platform so that dispatchers can see where the guard is too? Can't be too safe, right?

 

[Krokodil]

Most dispatchers at most stations are not coupling/uncoupling.

I doubt that any are these days. It would have been a regular practice at places like Bournemouth when the REPs were in service but most units with high-level pipes were withdrawn 20 years ago. I suppose that the practice may have persisted until the end of 442 service but I don't actually know if they regularly coupled/uncoupled in their final years.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

How about guards wear a hi vis while on the platform so that dispatchers can see where the guard is too? Can't be too safe, right?

Sure. Please do explain your rationale why? For a complete answer!

-

Honestly, and as always this is my personal opinion, I am happy that the dispatchers I work with wear the hi-vis vests and I would question any attempt to change this unless there is a clear, convincing and compelling reason. So far, I am yet to hear one.

 

[bengley]

Sure. Please do explain your rationale why? For a complete answer!

-

Honestly, and as always this is my personal opinion, I am happy that the dispatchers I work with wear the hi-vis vests and I would question any attempt to change this unless there is a clear, convincing and compelling reason. So far, I am yet to hear one.

Guards wearing high visibility clothing will make it far easier for Dispatchers to notice them on the station, and make it more obvious that they are there to assist. If Dispatchers don’t see them, they may assume the guard isn't there and start making calls to control!

 

[TEW]

I doubt that any are these days. It would have been a regular practice at places like Bournemouth when the REPs were in service but most units with high-level pipes were withdrawn 20 years ago. I suppose that the practice may have persisted until the end of 442 service but I don't actually know if they regularly coupled/uncoupled in their final years.

Dispatchers at Waterloo still couple and uncouple 455s, but it is only booked to happen on Sundays now.

 

[357]

Guards wearing high visibility clothing will make it far easier for Dispatchers to notice them on the station, and make it more obvious that they are there to assist. If Dispatchers don’t see them, they may assume the guard isn't there and start making calls to control!

It's far more likely that a train is in a platform without a dispatcher present than without a guard present though (assuming it's not a DOO service of course!)

I'll be the first to admit when I was a dispatcher I forgot about a train a couple of times. Most of my colleagues had done it too.

 

[Krokodil]

Dispatchers at Waterloo still couple and uncouple 455s, but it is only booked to happen on Sundays now.

Interesting, to be honest I'd assumed (without checking) that those were new enough to have autocouplers for electrical and pneumatic connections

 

[sprunt]

Thank you very much for allowing me to disagree.

How about guards wear a hi vis while on the platform so that dispatchers can see where the guard is too? Can't be too safe, right?

Why does it have to be about safety? If train crew need to be able to see the dispatcher on a busy platform, it's easier for them if the dispatcher is wearing high vis. That's a good thing, surely?

 

[43066]

Why does it have to be about safety? If train crew need to be able to see the dispatcher on a busy platform, it's easier for them if the dispatcher is wearing high vis. That's a good thing, surely?

Not if they can see them perfectly well when they’re not wearing hi vis.

 

[sprunt]

Not if they can see them perfectly well when they’re not wearing hi vis.

On a crowded platform they're obviously going to be able to pick them out more quickly. The clue's in the name.

 

[43066]

On a crowded platform they're obviously going to be able to pick them out more quickly. The clue's in the name.

Not obviously the case at all, from direct experience of looking back along crowded platforms (do you have any, or are you just guessing?).

What’s far more important is where the person is standing and the dispatch bat.