Incorrect use of Jobseekers railcard

[chrisanon]

Hi there,

Hoping you can help me today please? I have been using a monthly / flexi pass (8 passes) on GWR for 15 months. Initially I had to use it to travel to London to find a job as I was made redundant elsewhere. I got a job, but wouldn't have been able to accept it due to the cost of trains. Therefore I kept applying the discount to the monthly flexi passes, knowing this was wrong & shouldn't have, but had got away with it. I've never done anything wrong before. Unfortunately today, my pass expired & I didn't know. Therefore the barriers didn't open &, upon checking my ticket, the officer said it was under concession. As I was then questioned under caution, panicking & late for work, I lied & said the railcard was at home. I was polite but nervous, the officer then filmed me & asked 6 questions. He then provided me with a ticket home later. I should expect a letter asking for my railcard, something I cannot provide. I am worried on how far this can go. I'll apologise, say it won't happen again & mean it. The saving has been c. £200 a month, for 15 months. Please can you advise me on then most likely outcome & how I should handle this?

Many thanks in advance.


Kind Rgds.

 

[30907]

GWR have a policy of avoiding prosecution if you co-operate with them.

They will write (not necessarily immediately) asking for your explanation. When the letter arrives please upload it (personal details hidden) and come back for specific advice. You do not need to incriminate yourself, but GW will almost certainly have looked at your travel history.

A settlement offer will, at the least, ask for the full fare for the journey when you were caught plus an admin fee. It may be for significantly more - the Anytime Day Return to Paddington is £60, multiply that by the number of journeys you have made at the reduced fare.

Have a look at posts by longstanding member Hadders for an idea of the points to make when you reply - and start saving

 

[chrisanon]

Thank you for the response. I've been worried. Albeit subject to the letter, should they look & see that its 15 months, would they still settle without prosecution? If just a cost, will it simply be the £60 x number of journeys, less what I've paid? Or do you think they could add a fine? Given it could be £3.5k, do they tend to offer payment plans? Many thanks again.

 

[signed]

do they tend to offer payment plans?

No, very rarely they allow pay in 2 installements, but in 99% of cases it's straight

If just a cost, will it simply be the £60 x number of journeys, less what I've paid?

What you've paid will not be removed from the settlement amount, to that £100 to £150 of admin fee

 

[30907]

Thank you for the response. I've been worried. Albeit subject to the letter, should they look & see that its 15 months, would they still settle without prosecution?

It's not unknown.

If just a cost, will it simply be the £60 x number of journeys, less what I've paid?

No - it will potentially be for the full amount. Just asking for the difference simply encourages people to chance it.

Or do you think they could add a fine?

They can't legally do that - there will be an admin fee though.

 

[chrisanon]

Thank you both. Understood, probably not a prosecution but it will be the full cost of a ticket + possibly an admin fee. Much appreciated. I'll revert when I have the letter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Mar 2025 ==

Sorry - just one more, should I at all be worried about prosecution inc. criminal record or prison sentence? Thanks

 

[30907]

Sorry - just one more, should I at all be worried about prosecution inc. criminal record or prison sentence? Thanks

Definitely not prison, but yes, you risk prosecution.

 

[chrisanon]

Ok, thanks. I'm hoping that they follow your first message on a policy of not prosecuting for co-operation. I certainly don't want a record if it can be avoided. Kind rgds.

 

[furlong]

They should indeed deduct what you already paid when calculating their loss, which is how much you'll need to pay them. They usually add on administration charges which often seem to be higher than might be justified in law though apparently few people challenge these. While it's reasonably straightforward to prosecute for a single occasion when a person gets caught, it's much trickier (though not impossible) to prosecute for all the other journeys (without a full admission) so they will usually agree to settle out-of-court if you co-operate as that saves everyone time and effort and guarantees they get paid in full. The loss should be based on the undiscounted price of the tickets you actually used rather than separate full price singles or returns but, again, we often see train companies getting away with exaggerating their loss unchallenged. The difference can be substantial. There's a reported example of a successful challenge after a fraud conviction (Chiltern - Peter Barnett) where the judge concluded "Looking at all the evidence in the round I am satisfied that a reasonable attempt has been made by the defendant to calculate loss to the company and in this case the actual loss is £5,892.70 and not the £19,689 as claimed."

 

[MarlowDonkey]

There's a reported example of a successful challenge after a fraud conviction (Chiltern - Peter Barnett) where the judge concluded "Looking at all the evidence in the round I am satisfied that a reasonable attempt has been made by the defendant to calculate loss to the company and in this case the actual loss is £5,892.70 and not the £19,689 as claimed."

That was a fraud prosecution where the rules were set by the Court and the judge decided to dismiss Chiltern's claim at least in part to uphold the Court's right to do so.

If it's an Out of Court settlement, it's the train operating company who are setting the rules as to how much they want to receive to cancel the threat of prosecution.

 

[furlong]

If it's an Out of Court settlement, it's the train operating company who are setting the rules as to how much they want to receive to cancel the threat of prosecution.

Only to a limited extent when the train company has identified the matter as criminal: I don't think the courts are going to condone attempts to make a profit out of a crime (which could even itself amount to a crime). Any punishment (e.g. a fine) is solely a matter for the courts to determine. The railway should only demand the amount needed to put it back into the financial position that it would have been in had no crime been committed. I don't think that principle is in doubt, but debate centres around the best way to calculate that sum.

 

[styles]

Ok, thanks. I'm hoping that they follow your first message on a policy of not prosecuting for co-operation. I certainly don't want a record if it can be avoided. Kind rgds.

Just on this, if you do end up being prosecuted for it and it lands a criminal record, Unlock are a good charity to help; but suffice to say, it's not the end of the world. It will raise questions when applying for certain jobs, and some visas, but you'll almost always be offered an opportunity to discuss it. If you explain the circumstances, a lot of employers will be understanding. Not all, but a lot. Obviously, best to avoid a prosecution if you can though.

 

[Haywain]

Only to a limited extent when the train company has identified the matter as criminal: I don't think the courts are going to condone attempts to make a profit out of a crime (which could even itself amount to a crime). Any punishment (e.g. a fine) is solely a matter for the courts to determine. The railway should only demand the amount needed to put it back into the financial position that it would have been in had no crime been committed. I don't think that principle is in doubt, but debate centres around the best way to calculate that sum.

You have been making this argument for a long time but every time you do it is of little benefit to the poster.

 

[furlong]

The benefit is in countering - with an example the OP can look up - assertions made on this thread that the OP would be required to pay full fare without deductions for what is already paid. We have even seen and been told that GWR without asking usually does take fares paid into account as it should, and if it doesn't, that behaviour should be challenged. There was another thread on here just today where someone successfully challenged an exaggerated settlement amount and got it reduced much closer to a justifiable number.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Evading rail fares around 120 times over 15 months is industrial level evasion and many would argue that this sort of case should end up being prosecuted, and if it isn't you have to wonder how serious a case has to be to end up in court.

The good news is GWR are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. An out of court settlement means you pay them some money and in return they will not prosecute you. The money you will have to pay them is normally the cost of all the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase, plus an administration fee typically around £150.

Given the level of evasion an out of court settlement is likely to be very expensive. Assuming you're travelling from Reading (given the location on your profile) then an Anytime Day Return is £64 (last year would've been a little cheaper) and 8 journeys a month for 15 months - I'll let you do the maths....

I don't normally say this, but given the potential costs involved, it might be best to engage a solicitor who specialises in rail fare evasion. They aren't cheap but given the sort of settlement costs we're looking at it may well be worth it.

There really isn't anything you can do until you receive a letter from GWR. When it arrives, post a redacted copy of it in this thread and we can assist with next steps.

 

[chrisanon]

Thank you all for your advice & the welcome too, its very kind & helpful. I've had a very stressful & emotional night & morning. I have sought legal advice. Since my call to the legal advisors, I have now received a Pre-Court settlement offer for just the one pass. This is of course very welcome news. I will of course pay & learn from this, I have the hard way. Can I ask though please, for my peace of mind, is this matter closed when I pay this? Or would they look into the past?

 

[30907]

Thank you all for your advice & the welcome too, its very kind & helpful. I've had a very stressful & emotional night & morning. I have sought legal advice. Since my call to the legal advisors, I have now received a Pre-Court settlement offer for just the one pass. This is of course very welcome news. I will of course pay & learn from this, I have the hard way. Can I ask though please, for my peace of mind, is this matter closed when I pay this? Or would they look into the past?

That is remarkably quick on GWR's part, and at the lower end of possibilities.

GWR first of all want people to stop cheating them, and second to recoup some or all of the money they have lost. If a 3-figure sum (would it be around £400?) will achieve the first, they will be reasonably content.

I don't think we have heard of them reopening an investigation after someone has paid a settlement, so you are reasonably safe for that.

 

[chrisanon]

That is remarkably quick on GWR's part, and at the lower end of possibilities.

GWR first of all want people to stop cheating them, and second to recoup some or all of the money they have lost. If a 3-figure sum (would it be around £400?) will achieve the first, they will be reasonably content.

I don't think we have heard of them reopening an investigation after someone has paid a settlement, so you are reasonably safe for that.

That's reassuring thank you. I did pay it, yes you are correct in the amount approx. & when I paid, the confirmation & then the confirmation email confirmed that the case is closed. A huge relief. I've now purchased a full price flex pass, which is expensive, but my lesson is learnt. I have also set timers to buy tickets in advance by 12 weeks to get the cheapest ones as full value is not affordable to me. Many thanks all again for your advice & support. Kind Rgds.

 

[RPI]

No, very rarely they allow pay in 2 installements, but in 99% of cases it's straight


What you've paid will not be removed from the settlement amount, to that £100 to £150 of admin fee

GWR will normally deduct any fares already paid from any settlement amount.