Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[EM2]

According to BBC London News, the ongoing problems at Dartford this afternoon have been exacerbated because yet again, passengers have forced open the doors on a broken-down train and are walking on the track, requiring the power to be shut off in the area.

Note: This is two topics merged into one (as they discuss the same issue). The poll was not added by EM2.

 

[87015]

Being stopped for two hours on a networker in this weather, can't say I'm surprised or particularly blame them.

 

[schwa]

Don't forget there are a lot of important people with lots of important things to do- so bugger everyone else.

 

[ushawk]

Had a feeling this may have been the cause of the "tresspassers on the track" at Bexleyheath when i saw NRE.

 

[Ferret]

n entirely predictable result of BTP failing to prosecute those responsible last time and publicising the fact. And if we could see this coming, why can't BTP?! Utter retards.

 

[Pumbaa]

It's also partly down to a lack of on-train information from traincrew. Last time in the TL shutdown, the complete lack of information coming their way in similar conditions was attributed to this behaviour by pax. The TOCs are to blame as much as NR/BTP/Control.

 

[mallard]

How can you blame them? Stuck for hours on a broken down (probably no aircon), crowded train in weather like this, with no information about how long they will be stuck for, no access to drinking water, etc.

I think they'd be quite justified to force their way out. Better that than having people suffering heatstroke, dehydration, etc. How bad would it be for the railways (NR, TOC, etc.) if somebody had died on board the train due to the heat?

 

[HST Power]

Don't forget there are a lot of important people with lots of important things to do- so bugger everyone else.

Exactly.

People like this have the brain capacity of a lobster. They don't care about anybody else, all that matters is them, them and them.

 

[WestCoast]

I think they'd be quite justified to force their way out. Better that than having people suffering heatstroke, dehydration, etc. How bad would it be for the railways (NR, TOC, etc.) if somebody had died on board the train due to the heat?

I can see why they have done it, but there is a clear risk of death by jumping onto electrified tracks.

 

[ushawk]

How can you blame them? Stuck for hours on a broken down (probably no aircon), crowded train in weather like this, with no information about how long they will be stuck for, no access to drinking water, etc.

I think they'd be quite justified to force their way out. Better that than having people suffering heatstroke, dehydration, etc. How bad would it be for the railways (NR, TOC, etc.) if somebody had died on board the train due to the heat?

But surely they would be moving quicker if they stayed on board as power would have to be switched off, police may have to be called. As we saw with the SWT problems a few weeks back, it delays things further. And of course theres the risk of being electrocuted.

 

[HST Power]

Jumping on the tracks doesn't solve anything. All it serves to do is waste the time of the TOC, waste the time of Police, waste the time of other commuters, and waste the time of the emergency services. They'll be pulled over the Police, and that's hardly going to get them a drink of water.

 

[Pumbaa]

But surely they would be moving quicker if they stayed on board as power would have to be switched off, police may have to be called. As we saw with the SWT problems a few weeks back, it delays things further. And of course theres the risk of being electrocuted.

And if no-one bothers telling them then who can tell them they did wrong? I'm with the pax on this one.

 

[Squaddie]

They're perfectly justified in forcing their way off a train after hours without water or information. With the passengers all the way.

 

[HST Power]

And if no-one bothers telling them then who can tell them they did wrong? I'm with the pax on this one.

God can when they get electrified.

 

[BestWestern]

Well it looks as though we have a re-run of the earlier 'More problems for SWT' thread, lol!

It's entirely understandable for pax to become restless, frustrated and for thoughts to turn towards 'escaping' on a roasting hot, knackered train. BUT - they are still breaking the law, risking their lives and causing totally needless additional chaos by doing this, and they still need a bollocking from the BTP. TOCs need to try much, much harder to remove the temptation for people to bail out of trains when things go wrong, or to ensure that plans are in place to swiftly and safely remove them before they decide to do so of their own accord. But nevertheless, just opening up the doors and jumping down without any permission, guidance or competent knowledge, is stupid and utterly reckless. Wrists need to be seriously slapped when these people get to wherever it is they decide to wander off to.

As somebody has quite rightly said above, after the earlier debacles with stationary SWT trains and self-evacuating passengers, and the complete lack of any action from the BTP, this will presumably now become a commonplace problem whenever a train stops for more than a short while :roll: The powers that be need to get a grip on this, sooner rather than later.

 

[strange6]

I would have forced open the doors to let air in but I would never have gone on to the track without official permission

 

[mallard]

But surely they would be moving quicker if they stayed on board as power would have to be switched off, police may have to be called. As we saw with the SWT problems a few weeks back, it delays things further. And of course theres the risk of being electrocuted.

Yes, they took a risk and inconvenienced others by doing what they did, but it always seems that in situations like this, the passengers needs are the lowest priority. It always seems that the railway comes first, stuff the passengers.

Here we have a situation where there is a real risk of harm to passengers stuck on the train (through heatstroke, etc) and what happens? They are left to stew so long that they take matters into their own hands. That's unacceptable. Thunderbird the train to the nearest station or organise a controlled, safe evacuation. Personally, I think there is little excuse to leave people stuck on a broken down train for more than an hour or two. With the weather as it is, it's all the more important to make sure passengers are safe and comfortable when disruption occurs.

 

[EM2]

They're perfectly justified in forcing their way off a train after hours without water or information. With the passengers all the way.

So you'll jump off a train, risking electrocution from the third rail, twisted ankle or worse from tripping on a rail or slipping on a sleeper or ballast, risking being hit by a train on another track, then causing the power to be switched off, meaning thousands of other people are sat on other trains, stuck becaue now *they* can't move?

 

[Squaddie]

So you'll jump off a train, risking electrocution from the third rail, twisted ankle or worse from tripping on a rail or slipping on a sleeper or ballast, risking being hit by a train on another track, then causing the power to be switched off, meaning thousands of other people are sat on other trains, stuck becaue now *they* can't move?

Yes (although your 'worst-case scenario' of what might happen if I attempt to leave a train is a little dramatic - I could construct a similar scenario for crossing a road). The train companies have to learn that they simply cannot continue treating their long-suffering passengers in this way.

 

[EM2]

Here we have a situation where there is a real risk of harm to passengers stuck on the train (through heatstroke, etc) and what happens? They are left to stew so long that they take matters into their own hands. That's unacceptable. Thunderbird the train to the nearest station or organise a controlled, safe evacuation. Personally, I think there is little excuse to leave people stuck on a broken down train for more than an hour or two. With the weather as it is, it's all the more important to make sure passengers are safe and comfortable when disruption occurs.

As far a sI can make out, these particular passengers were not stuck for more than two hours, and according to press reports, was NOT the failed train but the one behind.
A controlled safe evacuation would probably have been from the failed train first, and would still need the power off before it can take place.

 

[jones_bangor]

Most of the "idiots" probably realise full well where the third rail is located and keep well clear.....nonetheless stupid.

 

[EM2]

Yes (although your 'worst-case scenario' of what might happen if I attempt to leave a train is a little dramatic - I could construct a similar scenario for crossing a road). The train companies have to learn that they simply cannot continue treating their long-suffering passengers in this way.

Then you are a fool. Not even an experienced railwayman would do that.

 

[Pumbaa]

A controlled safe evacuation would probably have been from the failed train first, and would still need the power off before it can take place.

Only works when effective communication is in place, most of the time it never even thinks about materialising. This will only stop being a problem when TOCs/control/NR/BTP bother to start trying to communicate properly during shutdowns. It's all very well calling the pax stupid, but they aren't informed and as such cannot make a fully informed decision, thus you cannot blame them for making the decision they have.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

It could have been a lot worse!

You could have been stuck on a two car Arriva Trains Fails 175 Adelante Coradia in this weather with the guard being a complete knob, forcing people down the gangway, bunching people into each other and then laughing about it with his fellow collegaue on the train, despite people telling them that they couldn't get anymore people on, with luggage, which had overflowed the luggage racks and then made the problem even worse by telling people the train had a mechanical failure and was terminating the train at Chester to force everyone onto another two car unit while the two car unit that you came off wasn't failed and was letting people on to go elsewhere...........


I'm ranting! Must stop ranting!

 

[ushawk]

Only works when effective communication is in place, most of the time it never even thinks about materialising. This will only stop being a problem when TOCs/control/NR/BTP bother to start trying to communicate properly during shutdowns. It's all very well calling the pax stupid, but they aren't informed and as such cannot make a fully informed decision, thus you cannot blame them for making the decision they have.

Fully agree there, this keeps happening too and nothing seems to be changing.

 

[BestWestern]

Here we have a situation where there is a real risk of harm to passengers stuck on the train (through heatstroke, etc) and what happens? They are left to stew so long that they take matters into their own hands. That's unacceptable. Thunderbird the train to the nearest station or organise a controlled, safe evacuation. Personally, I think there is little excuse to leave people stuck on a broken down train for more than an hour or two. With the weather as it is, it's all the more important to make sure passengers are safe and comfortable when disruption occurs.

I agree with those thoughts. TOC's are poor at catering for people's needs in these situations, and the risks attached to overly hot train interiors seems to be seldom considered despite these 'health and safety' aware times we live in. I fail to understand why in very hot weather better plans are not put into place to ensure that people can be looked after on board trains in the event of problems. Ideally this would involve evacuation, but at the very least supplies of drinking water need to be close by and deliverable within a short timeframe, or even better carry them routinely onboard the trains. Crews need to be given permission to open external doors and ventilate coaches before people get frantic, and greater efforts are needed to rescue stranded train when possible, as often this takes far too long even if it's just a failed train with others close by which could be used to perform the rescue.

Having said all of that though, I can't condone doing what these people have done.

 

[87015]

Hmm, one of the early recommendations from the SWT fiasco was that if there is no sign of movement within an hour you should be looking to get people off the trains asap even if just to get them alongside the line rather than on the train. You'd have thought SE would have briefed staff on that or they'd at least have been aware given the weather, we have had it as part of the summer prep work.

Ps. No deaths or injuries reported on 'evacuation'...

 

[Helvellyn]

Oh please - in the SWT incident people were being told what was going on. Unfortunately no estimate of when the problem was going to be resolved could be provided. The press painted it as a complete lack of any information - it wasn't that, just no actual details.

It will happen where someone forces their way off a train onto a line that is still operational (or just become operational again) and gets injured or killed. If you're going to self-evacuate can you guarantee every line is blocked? Can you guarantee the power is off on every line (third rail)? We don't get PTS training for the fun of it - it's because there are very real risks out there. Continued actions like this will make more people think it is acceptable, will increase the risks of it going horribly wrong - and then it will still be the fault of the railways!

Oh, as for the road analogy - a woman was killed on the M40 at the weekend who got out of her car to retrieve something from the carriageway. Then again I wouldn't plan to be wandering around a motorway, just like I won't wander around the railway unless it's absolutely required.

 

[causton]

At every door on trains (that can be opened in an emergency) is instructions on how to safely disembark from a train (sit down, hands on the ledge, drop down from there, etc). If people should not leave trains in emergencies why is this information there? In any case I agree with the above suggestion of at least opening a door to get some air in.

Unfortunately there is no proper communication for anything on the railway these days, be it LU telling you why your train is stopped at a station for ages (despite constantly announcing a "Good Service" on the platform), FCC not telling me a train is late and updating the displays until 2 minutes after it should have been there (when it was late right from the start of its journey) and never giving any sort of meaningful information in the course of a major emergency!

 

[chuffchuff]

Wasn't the broken one they bailed out from