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Potential capacity improvements at Reigate station?

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Peter Sarf

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Had this problem on the 21st of Feb when the train to Reading changed platform from 2 to 0 literally as the train was hitting the points. I can remember looking at realtimetrains at the time and wondering why it changed platform for seemingly no reason. I think the station has actually got worse since they added platform 0
Redhill is really just suffering from being a busy station. It has enough services that there needs to be too many choices of platforms !. The only problem is the last minute platform changes are a killer for such a tortuous route to platform 0 from platforms 1+2.
 
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Minstral25

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Redhill is really just suffering from being a busy station. It has enough services that there needs to be too many choices of platforms !. The only problem is the last minute platform changes are a killer for such a tortuous route to platform 0 from platforms 1+2.
Which they need not have created as there was plenty of room to allow Platform 1 remain a through platform and create a bay for platform 0.

Trouble was when they consulted passengers, who immediately raised the issue (in 2015 I think), NR's design was fixed, and it was too late to do anything about it.

Next Christmas they are apparently replacing the track at Southern end of station (when they did P0 in 2016 they replaced the Northern end track), but sadly again NR won't discuss reinstating platform 1 as a through platform.
 

30907

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Which they need not have created as there was plenty of room to allow Platform 1 remain a through platform and create a bay for platform 0.
Which would have meant more conflicting movements involving reversing/terminating trains and reduced capacity - which would have led to a different set of complaints.

Not that I am suggesting present operational practice is perfect, and a north end footbridge/subway would be a practical improvement.
 

Minstral25

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Which would have meant more conflicting movements involving reversing/terminating trains and reduced capacity - which would have led to a different set of complaints.

Not that I am suggesting present operational practice is perfect, and a north end footbridge/subway would be a practical improvement.
Not sure this is right - I can't see a large increase in conflicting movements happening if swapped - we are only talking swapping P1 with P0 which are next to each other and block each other off when any movement in either on the main line from the South.

The only real change is the hourly Tonbridge which one would assume would go into P0 instead of P1A. That generally is timed to avoid most other traffic at Redhill anyway, especially GWR, arriving and departing in between each the 9J services in each direction (Horsham to Peterborough).

A North end footbridge was an ask of Network Rail but as usual no budget. Redhill station is extremely poor for passengers and looking very dilapidated.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Which they need not have created as there was plenty of room to allow Platform 1 remain a through platform and create a bay for platform 0.

Trouble was when they consulted passengers, who immediately raised the issue (in 2015 I think), NR's design was fixed, and it was too late to do anything about it.

Next Christmas they are apparently replacing the track at Southern end of station (when they did P0 in 2016 they replaced the Northern end track), but sadly again NR won't discuss reinstating platform 1 as a through platform.
They retained the relay interlocking was the main stumbling block here limited what they could do with the layout to basically mirror image the same routes.
 

Minstral25

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They retained the relay interlocking was the main stumbling block here limited what they could do with the layout to basically mirror image the same routes.

Whilst appreciating signals fully, I don't pretend to understand signal interlocking, but to my simple eyes Platform 1 was always a through platform previously, so they must have changed the relay interlocking in 2016 to make it a terminating platform.

Surely, they could reinstate it in 2025 if they left it there.
 

JonathanH

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The discussion about platform 0 / platform 1 at Redhill often focuses on platform 1 remaining a through platform, but it also had to be shortened to allow access to platform 0.

We seem to have been discussing the compromises for a long time - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/redhill-station-extra-platform.128178/page-9#post-3266139

This seems quite clear that there was no sensible way to retain platform 1 as a through platform while retaining flexibility for other train movements.
 

Minstral25

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The discussion about platform 0 / platform 1 at Redhill often focuses on platform 1 remaining a through platform, but it also had to be shortened to allow access to platform 0.
It didn't "have to be shortened" but was the choice taken by Network Rail when the design was fixed. Alternatives were outlined but not used.

The result is a compromise made by Network Rail that passengers will be feeling pain because of for many years to come, unfortunately.

True but it remains an unresolved conundrum

This seems quite clear that there was no sensible way to retain platform 1 as a through platform while retaining flexibility for other train movements.

Not totally true - there was no willingness to work it out as the design had been fixed when issues of distance for passengers and unsuitability of underpass was pointed out.

The issues of conflicts is simply not proven. The only train potentially causing an additional conflict if the purposes of P0 and P1 are swapped is the Tonbridge, but that is a major problem either way round.
 

MarkyT

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It didn't "have to be shortened" but was the choice taken by Network Rail when the design was fixed. Alternatives were outlined but not used.

The result is a compromise made by Network Rail that passengers will be feeling pain because of for many years to come, unfortunately.


True but it remains an unresolved conundrum



Not totally true - there was no willingness to work it out as the design had been fixed when issues of distance for passengers and unsuitability of underpass was pointed out.

The issues of conflicts is simply not proven. The only train potentially causing an additional conflict if the purposes of P0 and P1 are swapped is the Tonbridge, but that is a major problem either way round.
The problem is not just with the crossing of conflicting paths, but also the conflicts of overlaps at both ends of the station. At the London end there were restrictions on what simultaneous movements could be made with a modern compliant 12-car layout if both platforms #1 and #2 had both been built as through lines (with the up through line retained) The new platform #0 line has no such conflicts as it is long enough to have a full clear overlap at the north. That alignment could have been used for #1 however if #0 had been made the bay, but then anyone from anywhere would always have had to use the subway to get to or from a North Downs train using that platform. The advantage of having buffers at the N end of #1 is there's no overlap projecting north of it into the throat junction while an incoming move is made to interfere with other movements at that end. It's difficult to determine how many short notice platform changes would happen if #0 had been the bay, but clearly that would always require trains crossing more lines to access it. While such trains may be timed to avoid conflict, there are cases where it occurs anyway due to delay. There really weren't any perfect answers to having three through platfroms without widening the formation at the north, a difficult and expensive endeavour. An answer now is to build another access between all the platforms for interchange and revise the south junction layout to allow some more parallel movements. For example:
1741273810496.png
 

Minstral25

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The problem is not just with the crossing of conflicting paths, but also the conflicts of overlaps at both ends of the station. At the London end there were restrictions on what simultaneous movements could be made with a modern compliant 12-car layout if both platforms #1 and #2 had both been built as through lines (with the up through line retained) The new platform #0 line has no such conflicts as it is long enough to have a full clear overlap at the north. That alignment could have been used for #1 however if #0 had been made the bay, but then anyone from anywhere would always have had to use the subway to get to or from a North Downs train using that platform. The advantage of having buffers at the N end of #1 is there's no overlap projecting north of it into the throat junction while an incoming move is made to interfere with other movements at that end. It's difficult to determine how many short notice platform changes would happen if #0 had been the bay, but clearly that would always require trains crossing more lines to access it. While such trains may be timed to avoid conflict, there are cases where it occurs anyway due to delay. There really weren't any perfect answers to having three through platfroms without widening the formation at the north, a difficult and expensive endeavour. An answer now is to build another access between all the platforms for interchange and revise the south junction layout to allow some more parallel movements. For example:
View attachment 175818

Agree on overlaps - Platform 1 lost about a carriage length at the southern end to allow for the crossovers to platform 0. When Platform 0 was designed it was curved away from Ladbroke Grove, whereas if was straight then an additional length could be created on platform 1 that would have allowed it to be a through platform still.

If it was swapped, which will never happen due to lack of willingness to look after passengers, you are correct about the passengers for the occasional North Downs train, and all Tonbridge trains would need to walk to P0. Reality would be that most North Downs trains would still use P1 even if it was a through road (and the ones that currently use P2 would continue to do so), and there are relatively few Tonbridge passengers at all (except on the 1 or 2 school trains) which is why the service has been cut back over the years. Hence the usage of P0 by passengers would drop rapidly.

In any case the usage would be very low when compared to the pandemonium when a train is swapped platforms currently.
 

MarkyT

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Agree on overlaps - Platform 1 lost about a carriage length at the southern end to allow for the crossovers to platform 0. When Platform 0 was designed it was curved away from Ladbroke Grove, whereas if was straight then an additional length could be created on platform 1 that would have allowed it to be a through platform still.
The formation narrows significantly at the footbridge just north of the new platform.
1741298166473.png
If it was swapped, which will never happen due to lack of willingness to look after passengers, you are correct about the passengers for the occasional North Downs train, and all Tonbridge trains would need to walk to P0. Reality would be that most North Downs trains would still use P1 even if it was a through road (and the ones that currently use P2 would continue to do so), and there are relatively few Tonbridge passengers at all (except on the 1 or 2 school trains) which is why the service has been cut back over the years. Hence the usage of P0 by passengers would drop rapidly.

In any case the usage would be very low when compared to the pandemonium when a train is swapped platforms currently.
Using #0 as the main up through platform allows the various reversals and turnbacks to be handled in #1 and #2, in the middle of the layout ensuring least conflict both arriving and departing. A better layout at the south, as I illustrated, would allow up trains from Gatwick to enter in parallel with a down Gatwick or Tonbridge departure from #1 or #2 or an up Tonbridge arrival or a down Reigate arrival in #2. With less conflict in the layout there should be less need to divert trains from #0 to #2 or vice versa at short notice. I still think an extra foot transfer bridge between all platforms should be built too for the odd occasion it will still happen and to tackle the subway scrum more generally. The bridge might perhaps reuse the footings of the old P.O. conveyor bridge, like they did at East Croydon.
 
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Minstral25

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The formation narrows significantly at the footbridge just north of the new platform.
View attachment 175850

Using #0 as the main up through platform allows the various reversals and turnbacks to be handled in #1 and #2, in the middle of the layout ensuring least conflict both arriving and departing. A better layout at the south, as I illustrated, would allow up trains from Gatwick to enter in parallel with a down Gatwick or Tonbridge departure from #1 or #2 or an up Tonbridge arrival or a down Reigate arrival in #2. With less conflict in the layout there should be less need to divert trains from #0 to #2 or vice versa at short notice. I still think an extra foot transfer bridge between all platforms should be built too for the odd occasion it will still happen and to tackle the subway scrum more generally. The bridge might perhaps reuse the footings of the old P.O. conveyor bridge, like they did at East Croydon.

Yes, it does narrow but the escape steps in the picture were cut out of the original formation. The platform could have used all that land which IIRC was originally part of the station sidings.

The reality is that platform 2 is used as the main through route with platform 0 used for turnback's and lately many Reigate to Victoria trains (that is a recent change though since the GWR timetable changed, much to passenger annoyance).

All Southbound trains from Purley to Gatwick or Reigate use platform 3, there is no willingness to divert to either P2 or P0 except very late at night when P2 is used as a reversable platform.

A potential usage if changed could be:
P0 - Tonbridge trains, Reading to Gatwick trains
P1 - Gatwick to Reading trains, Gatwick/Reigate to Victoria joiners
P2 - All Northbound Thameslink's (as now), all Reigate to Victoria trains
P3 - All Southbound Thameslink's (as now), all Victoria to Reigate trains

Agree about a footbridge (with lifts) is needed. The footings of the old Post Office Bridge are not suitable apparently and it is also not in the best place.
 

Peter Sarf

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Yes, it does narrow but the escape steps in the picture were cut out of the original formation. The platform could have used all that land which IIRC was originally part of the station sidings.

The reality is that platform 2 is used as the main through route with platform 0 used for turnback's and lately many Reigate to Victoria trains (that is a recent change though since the GWR timetable changed, much to passenger annoyance).

All Southbound trains from Purley to Gatwick or Reigate use platform 3, there is no willingness to divert to either P2 or P0 except very late at night when P2 is used as a reversable platform.

A potential usage if changed could be:
P0 - Tonbridge trains, Reading to Gatwick trains
P1 - Gatwick to Reading trains, Gatwick/Reigate to Victoria joiners
P2 - All Northbound Thameslink's (as now), all Reigate to Victoria trains
P3 - All Southbound Thameslink's (as now), all Victoria to Reigate trains

Agree about a footbridge (with lifts) is needed. The footings of the old Post Office Bridge are not suitable apparently and it is also not in the best place.
Should there be a platform 4 ?. For Tonbridge services to keep them away from junction conflicts - it could be off the end of platform 3 round the bend towards Tonbridge. This would beconvenient for passengers changing that arecoming from the London direction or going to the coast. Would it make life easier over on Platforms 0-2 allowing platform 0 to get less use. I am probably un-justifying platform 0 and creating more trecking for (the few ?) Tonbridge branch passengers !.
 

Minstral25

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Should there be a platform 4 ?. For Tonbridge services to keep them away from junction conflicts - it could be off the end of platform 3 round the bend towards Tonbridge. This would beconvenient for passengers changing that arecoming from the London direction or going to the coast. Would it make life easier over on Platforms 0-2 allowing platform 0 to get less use. I am probably un-justifying platform 0 and creating more trecking for (the few ?) Tonbridge branch passengers !.
Personally I have advocated it, but like putting back P1 it is unlikely to happen Due to lack of funds. Redhill (and Reigate to some extent) will remain unloved by passengers as stations slowly dilapidating
 
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