Welsh Language Act on Cambrian crossings

[cymro inside]

the vast majority of the population in the Penrhyndeudraeth area are Welsh speaking and they think in Welsh,not English,(anyone who doubts this should catch a train from Blaenau FFestiniog on a Saturday morning all the kids communicating in Welsh),it isnt a big ask for Network Rail to allow signallers and the public to converse in their native tongue with simple instructions (surely there are Welsh speaking NR managers available should there be a need to safety audit monitered calls) and as for Crewe well it comes from the old Welsh word Cryw which is the Welsh word for fish trap(for confirmation see Brewers Britain and Ireland place name origins),a fascinating read.You know its a shame that some of you out there dont understand that one of Europes oldest languages is still spoken by seventy percent of the population of my area as a first language.perhaps its you critics who are the zealots as all we are asking for is tolerance and our basic civil rights.

 

[Yew]

Communications should be english by default, if the telephoneer engages in welsh then the signaller can reply if they also know welsh.

Personally I think the whole welsh thing as compulsary at schools is silly, it should be put in the same esteem as french (taught in secondary schools, with the option of a gcse)

 

[WestCoast]

Personally I think the whole welsh thing as compulsary at schools is silly, it should be put in the same esteem as french (taught in secondary schools, with the option of a gcse)

That is alluding to an "everyone must speak English mentality". When it comes to foreign languages, the UK is lagging behind the rest of Europe.

 

[krus_aragon]

Travel ATW and the on-board destination indicators have made-up (I presume) Welsh names for English places well away from Wales, such as Crewe and Manchester (but not Wilmslow, strangely).

I trust you know that the inhabitants of Manchester are known as Mancunians. This term comes from the Latin name for the place, 'Mamucium'(sp?). That's where the Welsh name 'Manceinion' comes from as well.

Many places in England that were of import in years gone by (cathedral cities, for example) have Welsh names that have been in use for centuries.

 

[DarloRich]

So what happens when the bloke from say birmingham who transferred to Mach is on shift? He speaks no welsh so how does he warn them not to use the crossing?

 

[Yew]

That is alluding to an "everyone must speak English mentality". When it comes to foreign languages, the UK is lagging behind the rest of Europe.

I wasnt saying that, but I dont see why welsh is given a priority over other, possibly more useful languages, apart so the WAG can get the nationalists to vote for them.

 

[snail]

I wasnt saying that, but I dont see why welsh is given a priority over other, possibly more useful languages, apart so the WAG can get the nationalists to vote for them.

Because they have spoken Welsh in that part of Wales for much longer than English has been spoken?

Would you like it if English was a minority language (note: not a foreign language) and you had to speak, say, French instead?

 

[Squaddie]

Travel ATW and the on-board destination indicators have made-up (I presume) Welsh names for English places well away from Wales, such as Crewe and Manchester (but not Wilmslow, strangely).

So why have a Welsh name for the place? It's just 'Crewe', shurely? Isn't this taking nationalism a tad too far?

Why do the English have their own ('made-up'?) names for places far away from England such as Copenhagen, Rome and Lisbon? It's just 'København', 'Roma' and 'Lisboa', surely?

Such an ignorant comment could only be made by an Englishman.

 

[PaulLothian]

I have spent quite a lot of time holidaying in North Wales over the past 35 years and have seen a noticeable growth in daily use of Welsh. In the course of our visits there I have come across quite a number of people (generally older people, and particularly in rural areas) who do not communicate very fluently in English, and who are more likely to misunderstand signallers' instructions in English. I've always found the Welsh to be totally understanding of situations where someone does not speak their language. It seems unreasonable of any national organisation like Network Rail (publicly or privately owned) to be so unsympathetic to use of a language that is given equal rights by law. One of the dangers of having monopoly suppliers of services!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Travel ATW and the on-board destination indicators have made-up (I presume) Welsh names for English places well away from Wales, such as Crewe and Manchester (but not Wilmslow, strangely).

They are not "made up", it's because Welsh orthography prevents using the English word in its original spelling.

Caer (fort) is the Welsh name for the place the English call Chester.
Caergybi (Holyhead) is St Cybi's fort, ie proper Welsh names.
Aberdaugleddau (mouth of the 2 Cleddau rivers) for Milford Haven.
etc.

But Cryw is just the Welsh transliteration of Crewe, a spelling impossible in Welsh.
Like "teiars" and "exosts" are just the Welsh spellings of "tyres" and "exhausts", and why Wrexham and Wrecsam are the same place just spelt differently (there's no x in Welsh).

Some English towns have special Welsh names, but the vast majority don't.
I think most Chester folk recognise Caer when they see it, but Salopians don't seem to cotton on to Amwythig as their Welsh name.

Two oddities I have seen in local timetables in the past are Manceinion Fictoria and Heol Rhydychen for Manchester Victoria and Oxford Road respectively. A bit confusing if you're boarding at Newton-le-Willows!

Virgin also use the dual terms on their trains.

While ATW on-board staff cheerfully chat in Welsh to passengers (even in England), I have yet to hear a live on-train announcement in Welsh.

There's also the oddity of using dual-language external displays on purely English routes (eg Crewe-Chester or Crewe-Manchester), and with the Welsh version placed first.

 

[jones_bangor]

Personally I think the whole welsh thing as compulsary at schools is silly, it should be put in the same esteem as french (taught in secondary schools, with the option of a gcse)

It may be silly to you, but I'm afraid your ignorance is no joke.

 

[WestCoast]

While ATW on-board staff cheerfully chat in Welsh to passengers (even in England), I have yet to hear a live on-train announcement in Welsh.

Often the routes that barely touch Wales have English staff I've noticed. Whenever I'm on Manchester Picc. - Chester or Crewe - Hereford.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I wasnt saying that, but I dont see why welsh is given a priority over other, possibly more useful languages, apart so the WAG can get the nationalists to vote for them.

Apart from the fact the Welsh is the language of Wales. "Other, possibly more useful languages" are not.

 

[Yew]

Why do the English have their own ('made-up'?) names for places far away from England such as Copenhagen, Rome and Lisbon? It's just 'København', 'Roma' and 'Lisboa', surely?

Such an ignorant comment could only be made by an Englishman.

Or a frenchman, London is spelt differently by the french (or pronounced)

You can understand copenhagen, the 'o' isnt a letter in english, The others probably have the a's changed over time to fit in better with the rest of the language.

 

[Squaddie]

Or a frenchman, London is spelt differently by the french (or pronounced).

But a Frenchman would not claim that a foreign version of a place name was 'made up', which is what one poster claimed of Welsh names for English towns and cities.

I dont see why welsh is given a priority over other, possibly more useful languages, apart so the WAG can get the nationalists to vote for them.

'WAG' is not a political party; it's the Welsh Government.

 

[scotsman]

I wonder how many CalMac skippers communicate with local boats/terminals/Coastguard in Gaelic?

 

[route:oxford]

Surely the solution is to close the Crossing?

 

[Mark_re]

It seems to me that the sensible solution is that it ought to be English, to avoid all semblance of doubt in the understanding of safety-critical messages. If both speak Welsh, then I see no reason why 1-to-1 communication should not be in Welsh.

If we are talking a message broadcast to many people, over the airwaves, or by public address system, then both languages should be used, if the announcer speaks both, thereby making sure that everyone understands.

I passionately believe that Welsh speakers should be able to use Welsh wherever possible, having paid to learn a little of the language myself, as an ignorant Englishman.

But as an aside, if I was using a help point at Southall, for example, and recognised the person at the other end of the line as a fellow Punjabi speaker, why not use Punjabi for the conversation? - There are an estimated half million Punjabi speakers in the UK, speaking it as a first language. More than for Welsh. It seems strange that Welsh has huge legal protection, while languages such as Punjabi, Bengali, etc. don't...

 

[Squaddie]

It seems strange that Welsh has huge legal protection, while languages such as Punjabi, Bengali, etc. don't...

Why? Welsh is a native language whereas Punjabi and Bengali are not.

 

[Mark_re]

Probably digressing, but by that logic English isn't native to these islands, either, surely? Welsh has been spoken a lot longer than English, which only arrived as recently as 1300. And around a million people speak Bengali, Punjabi as a first language. Just because they arrived in the 20th Century, doesn't make them any less valid as languages of the United Kingdom...

 

[WelshBluebird]

Welsh is the national language of one of the countries that make up the UK.
Punjabi etc are not.

 

[cymro inside]

until the 7th century Shrewsbury had a Welsh name not an English one and was called Pengwern, as for the hypothetical Brummie signaller who moved to Machynlleth perhaps he would gain some kudos and a little self respect by integrating himself into the community by at least trying to learn some welsh words such as diolch (thank you) etc....

 

[175001]

Personally I think the whole welsh thing as compulsary at schools is silly, it should be put in the same esteem as french (taught in secondary schools, with the option of a gcse)

I wondered how far the "What's the point of Welsh" would appear in this threat. Diolch yn fawr.
As a welsh speaker, you disgust me.

Seems that the usual naïve opinions are on this forum by a minority. Shame.

 

[PR1Berske]

All minority languages should be protected, and that list must be changed/adapted as circumstances allow. Welsh is by far a language worth preserving and official use must be extended to allow this.

As for Punjabi, etc., there are parts of the country where South Asian languages are growing as such a rate as to be at par with English in the coming years, and there should be a debate as to how the country adapts to this.

Young people who use, amongst other things, music and television to adapt their language (to drop Caribbean and other creole slang into English), are far less 'conservative' with their language than some people here. I would much rather see the English language adapt than be preserved in aspic.

 

[oglord]

Welsh is the national language of one of the countries that make up the UK.
Punjabi etc are not.

What does that actually mean? A language is a national language of a nation - i.e. a group of people. If a group of people happen to inhabit a particular area along with another group of people who speak a different language one cannot say one has any more special status than any other.

 

[DarloRich]

English is the national language of The United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Roughly 611,000 people or c.22% of the population of Wales speak "Welsh" (y Gymraeg)( 57% of those fluently) which is an increaseing percentage of the population. However c.3m people or almost 100% of the population speak English .

That seems to suggest that it is senisible to continue braodcasting official and important information in a langauge everyone in the principlaity can understand

 

[j0hn0]

All minority languages should be protected, and that list must be changed/adapted as circumstances allow. Welsh is by far a language worth preserving and official use must be extended to allow this.

As for Punjabi, etc., there are parts of the country where South Asian languages are growing as such a rate as to be at par with English in the coming years, and there should be a debate as to how the country adapts to this.

I disagree with this point. However, it is a point that may provoke certain "unwelcome" nationalistic responses, which personally to me, are fair game.

I do not think that minority languages should be preserved in a country where it isn't the national language. Preserve it in your own country sure, but not where it will be seen to be divisive.

I think that immigration has helped this country immensely, but that is because English has been preserved. There will always be additions to language, slang will always exist, but to actually preserve a language that isn't spoken either as a national language or dialect is extremely divisive and creates barriers within communities.

In England, we speak English, deal with it.

In Wales they should speak only Welsh. Lets stop eroding our national identities. I know that Britain is the king of doing this kind of thing, but let Wales have their language, encourage, don't fight it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

English is the national language of The United Kingdon of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Roughly 611,000 people or c.22% of the population of Wales speak "Welsh" (y Gymraeg)( 57% of those fluently) which is an increaseing percentage of the population. However c.3m people or almost 100% of the population speak English .

That seems to suggest that it is senisible to continue braodcasting official and important information in a langauge everyone in the principlaity can understand

Welsh is the National language of Wales.
22% is certainly not a small number (more than 1 in 5 people).
And the problem is that for many people, especially in the rural areas, English is not a language they can totally understand (as you them back up with fact - almost 100% is not actually 100%).

If the person at the crossing and the controller are both happy to talk in Welsh, then there is no reason for them not to.

 

[GB]

If the person at the crossing and the controller are both happy to talk in Welsh, then there is no reason for them not to.

But then where do you draw the line? What about communication between signallers and drivers? Should these also be in Welsh if both parties agree?

Like it or not, English is the defined required standard for ALL UK railway safety crticial communications.

 

[WelshBluebird]

But then where do you draw the line? What about communication between signallers and drivers? Should these also be in Welsh if both parties agree?

Like it or not, English is the defined required standard for ALL UK railway safety crticial communications.

When you are talking about internal communications between members of staff, then I agree with you.

But when you are talking about communicating with members of the public, then all banning Welsh does is alienate and antagonize people, and in some cases and furthers the (admittedly false) view that the Welsh language is still being demonised (I personally do not think it is, but I can certainly see why some people would think that).

If it is needed to be in english for safety (for railway crossings I don't see why it needs to be, although I can certainly understand it for other things), then at least be a bit more polite about it. Threatening to call the police is just not appropriate or justified.