This gives me shudders back to 2018/2019 after the timetable fiasco and trains would be stuck at Blackfriars with no competent onward driver…
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Lack of train crew on Great Northern?
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This gives me shudders back to 2018/2019 after the timetable fiasco and trains would be stuck at Blackfriars with no competent onward driver…
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bramling
Veteran Member
The problem is, that’s like having to choose between having your right or left leg amputated. Crew changes at Finsbury Park are pretty disruptive as well.
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So, in other words, it seems impossible to deliver the Thameslink concept without either (i) very inefficient crew diagrams, or, (ii) very fragile crew diagrams. So seems like we are stuck with this problem.
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Yes it looks impossible to do two round trips on the Peterborough side. More options at Cambridge due to 1Txx and 2Cxx services into Kings Cross, that just don't seem to exist on the Peterborough side.
There still appear to be some Ashford drivers who can't take a Sevenoaks service into Welwyn sidings. To be that close and yet so far....!
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There's computer software that optimally works out the diagrams to get the best use of each driver. On occasion it seems the software will put someone on a route that a driver doesn't sign, or on a unit they don't sign, and I am sure keeping all that up to date and fed into the machine is all fun and games (likely for all TOCs).
It does seem that there are some crazy uses of staff that involves passing all over the network to do simple moves or preps, and if there's any disruption it now moves said disruption up or down the line (including north and south of the river in extreme cases). The software presumably only works on a best case scenario of no disruption, unit faults/swaps, someone going sick at short notice, and struggles when any of those things happen.
In an ideal world there would be more spare drivers in key locations, less PASSing miles to shunt or prep a unit, and more up to date recovery plans to automatically add stops to certain key trains to ensure gaps like between Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage are filled when there's an issue on, say, Cambridge trains.
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Speaking as a mere passenger advancing in years this is a total PITA not helped by the only lifts being at the country end of the station.
dk1
Veteran Member
Last night the Thameslink arrival on platform 7 was 3 minutes late arriving at 21:51. My 21:54 Norwich was on platform 4 so very convenient for the footbridge/lifts but I have no idea if all those less able bodied made it. I counted 57 passengers transferring between the two trains before I departed almost 1 minute behind schedule.
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Most GN services seemed to be running well yesterday in the area.
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Out of interest I checked and it is shown as a connection on the journey planner but I wouldn't want to rely on it on a Sunday night.
In times gone by if it is listed as a connection then they might have held it but I doubt that applies nowadays.
Also discovered the "Allow extra time to change trains" option has quantisation of 30 mins - this is ridiculous, options of 5 and 10 mins extra would be more useful IMO.
bramling
Veteran Member
Sunday on GN seems often to be okay. Guessing there’s no problem covering duties at this time of year, and the timetable is somewhat less intense than Monday to Saturday, indeed it’s essentially similar to the pre-2018 format, the main difference being the hourly Cambridge semi-fast runs through to Brighton.
The infamous phrase “let’s see what you would have won” springs to mind!
I write this from a stopping GN service which has, you guessed it, lost 5 minutes since starting from Letchworth. Thankfully it’s not late enough to go behind the 717 at Welwyn, hopefully…
dk1
Veteran Member
Fingers crossed.
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I’m not sure if that’s why the last Norwich runs off pattern at 21:54 when all the others are xx:50.
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Gets very tight in scheduling and almost guaranteed to throw a minute or two into the following EMR which is only 8 minutes behind departing Ely and doesn’t call at Brandon.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I have noticed that is something they really only do in the rush hour. Off-peak the Moorgates tend to be on the hour and half hour. So the Cambridge train needs to be 15 mins late before they dump the Moorgate in front of it. If that happens then they tend to run non-stop to Finsbury Park to get the train back on its normal diagram. The rush house however and 4 mins late and you are following the Moorgate. Maybe less load in the day means they signaler has more time to think.
I have read many a wonderful article where the computer can avoid this kind of conflict, no idea how long it will be before a computer can regulate a service better then a person.
Horsham usually has 15 minutes. That was always plenty when they ran to Victoria or London Bridge. The service was super reliable. Even Connex didn't manage to screw it up, in terms of the trains actually turning up close to schedule.
The proposed December timetable does change the Moorgate timings. Not sure if it will be better or worse though, although if they add any more stops to the King's Cross trains it won't matter as they'll be getting ever closer to all station stoppers!
Given that the Cardiff ARS is so stupid that it will route a late running freight into a 15 mph loop and straight back out the other end, I think the signalers jobs will be safe for a while yet! This has been known about almost from day one, but apparently the computer wizards can't fix it.
Failed Unit
Established Member
The proposed timetable will do its job, I will be only going to work on the Sevenoaks services from Welwyn Garden City. As there is so little difference in the journey time, I might as well enjoy that the service starts there. If it gets to sit on the platform or has to shunt to and from the sidings meaning it struggles to start on time we shall see.
Currently on the 1939 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn, which is (a) late because the incoming service to form it was 16 minutes late, and (b) formed of a whole 4 carriages. Great job yet again from GN.
I also wonder what the point was of announcing the platform at KGX (platform 9) a few minutes before the late incoming service arrived, then not letting anyone through the barriers until it had arrived, and *then* allowing people through the barriers as soon as it drew up, so that the hordes of people trying to push onto a late short-formed train all clashed on the narrow platform with the people trying to get out to the barriers. Surely the policy should be to let people through before the train arrives, or to make people wait until people on the arriving train have managed to get out of the way?
I also wonder what the point was of announcing the platform at KGX (platform 9) a few minutes before the late incoming service arrived, then not letting anyone through the barriers until it had arrived, and *then* allowing people through the barriers as soon as it drew up, so that the hordes of people trying to push onto a late short-formed train all clashed on the narrow platform with the people trying to get out to the barriers. Surely the policy should be to let people through before the train arrives, or to make people wait until people on the arriving train have managed to get out of the way?
Failed Unit
Established Member
It looks like its sin was to leave WGC at 1857 - Its punishment to follow the 1853 Moorgate. The 2nd half apparently failed earlier so it is sadly 4 cars is better then 0. (At least it isn't a class 700)
I have noticed for some strange reason they do that at Kings Cross, but normally that is only to let passengers off-load and clean the train.
Shame they couldn't have sorted out a unit swap with what was due to run the 1809, cancelled for lack of driver... But yes,
not a 700 at least!
At least we got to Cambridge fairly sharpish and are actually back on time now (!) - possibly in part as the Thameslink service we should have overtook is itself over 30 minutes delayed so ended up well behind us.
No objection to keeping us off the platform at KGX until the incoming has cleared - I assumed that was the point of not letting anyone through the barriers - but keeping us off until about 5 seconds after the train has opened the doors and then letting the hordes through seems the worst of all worlds for everyone.
jammmmmsssssss
Member
I swear that timetable doesn't work as the GA passes Harling Road at 2242 and the EMR is meant to arrive at Thetford at 2240 1/2, even though they're in the same signal section
Realtime Trains | 1K92 2113 Stansted Airport to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1K92 2113 departure from Stansted Airport to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 1L16 1751 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1L16 1751 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
dk1
Veteran Member
I swear that timetable doesn't work as the GA passes Harling Road at 2242 and the EMR is meant to arrive at Thetford at 2240 1/2, even though they're in the same signal section
Realtime Trains | 1K92 2113 Stansted Airport to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1K92 2113 departure from Stansted Airport to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.The same sort of thing happens between 2W02 and 4E30 at Elmswell and Thurston, so 2W02 is literally always late (except on Monday when 4E30 doesn't run)Realtime Trains | 1L16 1751 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1L16 1751 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Only hope of improvement is the additional signal section at Croxton when it becomes an MCB-OD. That should save many delay minutes each day.
jammmmmsssssss
Member
Yeah but how was that allowed to happen where a train can literally never be on time. Timetable error?
dk1
Veteran Member
I’m not sure to be honest. First time in ages I’ve worked that particular service. Thought it was 21:50 last time I worked it.
Taking a closer look at the new timetable, it doesn't look great for the reliability of the down Kings Lynn services. The stopper is due to arrive CBG at x05, with the Thameslink arriving at x09 and the 'fast' arriving at x13. So the slightest delay to the stopper is going to impact both of the faster trains on the very long no-passing section between Hitchin and Shepreth Branch Jn. The current service is rather well spread out by comparison (stopper arrives at x53, fast at x00, Thameslink at x11).
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Mis-understanding of Absolute Block signalling I expect.
bramling
Veteran Member
Another shambles on the GN, just 7 days since the previous one.
So a failed train on the Cambridge branch, which seems to have essentially wrecked the entire GN outer-suburban service once again, which will no doubt be in an essentially non-usable state until the end of service.
There may be grounds for a separate thread, but what is it with GN that when something happens at one location it so often ends up that no effective service can be offered over the entire route, perhaps with the occasional exception of Cambridge to Kings Lynn (where to be fair there do seem to be shuttle services running).
Can the other depots and/or control simply not, for whatever reason, implement degraded forms of service? I suspect the reason is that the resources and/or expertise simply don’t seem to be there to manage the crewing.
So a failed train on the Cambridge branch, which seems to have essentially wrecked the entire GN outer-suburban service once again, which will no doubt be in an essentially non-usable state until the end of service.
There may be grounds for a separate thread, but what is it with GN that when something happens at one location it so often ends up that no effective service can be offered over the entire route, perhaps with the occasional exception of Cambridge to Kings Lynn (where to be fair there do seem to be shuttle services running).
Can the other depots and/or control simply not, for whatever reason, implement degraded forms of service? I suspect the reason is that the resources and/or expertise simply don’t seem to be there to manage the crewing.
jammmmmsssssss
Member
It's not absolute block signalling there
Looks like tonight's delay to 1T50 (1739 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn) is due to a *very* late freight (!) being slotted in at Hitchin ahead of the Letchworth terminator 1L48, making it 5 late. Then once again 1L48 has taken 7 minutes to get clear of the platform at Letchworth. Result is 1T50 has gone from 1 down to 10 down.
It seems there are about 20 different things that can go wrong, so at least one or other seems to do so every night. But they've really got to start getting these Letchworth terminators out of the way more quickly, as that really isn't helping. Last night 1L48 arrived Letchworth early but still took almost 7 minutes to move off again, resulting in a (small) delay to 1T50, and a small delay to 1T50 can balloon later (not least because if it is a couple of minutes late, it will invariably be held outside Cambridge North to let the 1842 to Liverpool Street out, which adds a few more minutes of delay - even more so now that the stop boards at Cambridge North have been put halfway to Waterbeach, because drivers apparently can't be relied upon to remember what length of train they're driving).
It seems there are about 20 different things that can go wrong, so at least one or other seems to do so every night. But they've really got to start getting these Letchworth terminators out of the way more quickly, as that really isn't helping. Last night 1L48 arrived Letchworth early but still took almost 7 minutes to move off again, resulting in a (small) delay to 1T50, and a small delay to 1T50 can balloon later (not least because if it is a couple of minutes late, it will invariably be held outside Cambridge North to let the 1842 to Liverpool Street out, which adds a few more minutes of delay - even more so now that the stop boards at Cambridge North have been put halfway to Waterbeach, because drivers apparently can't be relied upon to remember what length of train they're driving).
I have noticed that the departure screens on the platform at Letchworth are showing the Kings Lynn service when the terminating service arrives.
I was on 1L48 today. When I alighted at Letchworth several people on the platform were beginning to board at one of the other doors. Others were rushing down the stairs whilst I was going up them and presumably thinking it was the Kings Lynn service. So it may take a few minutes to clear these passengers from the train.
I was on 1L48 today. When I alighted at Letchworth several people on the platform were beginning to board at one of the other doors. Others were rushing down the stairs whilst I was going up them and presumably thinking it was the Kings Lynn service. So it may take a few minutes to clear these passengers from the train.
You only need to encounter someone drunk or sleeping and refusing to leave (I've seen one train delayed 54 minutes due to someone refusing to get off and getting aggressive - the time being to get BTP involved) and the delays soon build up.
It never works, particularly as EMR are almost always late by that point in the day. I have never taken the 1940 or 2140 PBO-NRW without obtaining delay repay...I swear that timetable doesn't work as the GA passes Harling Road at 2242 and the EMR is meant to arrive at Thetford at 2240 1/2, even though they're in the same signal section
Realtime Trains | 1K92 2113 Stansted Airport to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1K92 2113 departure from Stansted Airport to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.The same sort of thing happens between 2W02 and 4E30 at Elmswell and Thurston, so 2W02 is literally always late (except on Monday when 4E30 doesn't run)Realtime Trains | 1L16 1751 Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich | 02/03/2025
Real-time train running information for 1L16 1751 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich on 02/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
It is somewhat frustrating because the GA service is extremely often dispatched in front of the EMR service, resulting in the EMR service being even more delayed. This is further exacerbated in the case of the 1940 PBO departure as the 1950 GA stopping service from PBO is often dispatched in front of the EMR express service...
That's interesting to hear. At my local stations, Cambridge and Ely, which are of course managed by Greater Anglia, not Great Northern, I've noticed that the new departure screens introduced over the last few years have exactly the same problem. They're much worse at dealing with "the train at this platform isn't in service" or "the next train doesn't stop here" than they used to be, and very often they continue to show the next scheduled timetabled service rather that what is actually at the platform. I always considered it a minor annoyance, and never thought of it as a major issue, but your post shows exactly why it might be.
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