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So I didn’t buy a full ticket and just paid for the last station to get out the train station but it didn’t scan. The ticket officer took my details and said I do not have to go to court or receive a criminal conviction nor pay a fine. I then received a letter months later explaining I need to give evidence. I replied saying I’m sorry and I’ve been sent another email saying that I need to go to court. I also rang the number on the letter I received and they also said I do not have to go to court? What do I do please help.
I don’t want to receive a criminal conviction
So I didn’t buy a full ticket and just paid for the last station to get out the train station but it didn’t scan. The ticket officer took my details and said I do not have to go to court or receive a criminal conviction nor pay a fine. I then received a letter months later explaining I need to give evidence. I replied saying I’m sorry and I’ve been sent another email saying that I need to go to court. I also rang the number on the letter I received and they also said I do not have to go to court? What do I do please help. I’ve always paid for my tickets just this one time. I don’t want to receive a criminal conviction
It would help us to understand what's happened if you can show us what you have been sent. If you can, please show us pictures of everything - but make sure you hide your name and personal details as you won't want the whole internet to know about that.
So I didn’t buy a full ticket and just paid for the last station to get out the train station but it didn’t scan. The ticket officer took my details and said I do not have to go to court or receive a criminal conviction nor pay a fine. I then received a letter months later explaining I need to give evidence. I replied saying I’m sorry and I’ve been sent another email saying that I need to go to court. I also rang the number on the letter I received and they also said I do not have to go to court? What do I do please help. I’ve always paid for my tickets just this one time. I don’t want to receive a criminal conviction
Can you put up a copy of the letter you have received (with your personal details hidden), and provide more details of what actually happened? I'm guessing you arrived at somewhere like London Bridge with a ticket from Blackfriars - a one stop journey that anyone in their right mind only pays for by using contactless.
I travelled from Preston to Manchester Oxford road but I only paid from deansgate to Oxford road
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I have always paid for a ticket from Preston to Manchester but couple times when returning I only paid for some of the journey because I didn’t find it fair how the trains were fully packed to the point you’d have to stand up and be squished together like a can of sardines.
I have always paid for a ticket from Preston to Manchester but couple times when returning I only paid for some of the journey because I didn’t find it fair how the trains were fully packed to the point you’d have to stand up and be squished together like a can of sardines.
I am writing in response to the letter I received regarding my journey on the 6th of December.
Firstly, I sincerely apologise for not purchasing the correct ticket for my full journey from Preston to Manchester. I now realise that I should have spoken to a staff member or made alternative arrangements instead of traveling without the correct fare, and I deeply regret this mistake.
When the ticket officer took my details, I was told that I would not receive a fine or a criminal record as long as I responded to this letter. I just want to resolve this matter as soon as possible and am fully willing to cooperate and pay any necessary fine to settle this.
I also want to mention that I’ve had some difficult experiences as a passenger on your services. There have been times when I’ve taken busy trains and, due to overcrowding, I’ve been pushed aside or had to stand in uncomfortable conditions. On one occasion, I accidentally fell asleep leaning against a door, and if another passenger hadn’t woken me up, I could have fallen backwards onto the platform, which I’m sure you’d agree is a safety concern. While I understand the need for ticket enforcement, I also hope the company recognises the challenges passengers face while using the service.
Once again, I sincerely apologise for this situation. I appreciate your time in reviewing my response and look forward to your guidance on the next steps.
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Then I got that email so I replied with this:
Thank you for your response. I would like to clarify that when I spoke with the ticket officer at the time of the incident, I was informed that I would not need to go to court or pay a fine. Additionally, when I contacted the DRPU, I was given the same assurance.
Based on this information, I was under the impression that the matter was resolved, and I was not expecting further action. I would appreciate it if you could reconsider the case in light of this or provide guidance on any alternative resolution options available to avoid court proceedings.
Please let me know if you require any additional information. I am happy to cooperate to reach a fair resolution.
I think you have absolutely taken the piss by ripping them off - multiple times you admit - by short faring, and in your response to them, complained about the service. And what is this thing about falling asleep on a door? Why is that their fault? Don't go to sleep leaning on a train door.
They know why you did it and it was completely inappropriate for you to mention any of that in your reply, even if it is true. You ripped them off by evading the fare. This is a criminal offence. Would you respond to allegations of shoplifting by saying the shop was rubbish and you don't like the shop?
The reply also doesn't make any sense - you admit to making the decision to short fare (based on the rationale above) yet go on about "speaking to a staff member" instead of fare evading...?
The company seems to have lost patience with you and your best bet now is a frankly grovelling email to make up for the one you sent from the outset.
What shall I say. I didn’t know the severity of this matter. Please help I’ve never committed any offences before. I just want this matter to be resolved
What shall I say. I didn’t know the severity of this matter. Please help I’ve never committed any offences before. I just want this matter to be resolved
but couple times when returning I only paid for some of the journey because I didn’t find it fair how the trains were fully packed to the point you’d have to stand up and be squished together like a can of sardines.
Indicates that you have committed this offence before, but not been caught doing so.
Did you not read their letter which you posted in the thread? It is abundantly clear what the consequences can be.
The best thing you can do now is write up a draft email to Northern to retract what you have said previously, restate an apology and understanding of the wrongdoing, and post it in the thread for people to help make any corrections.
It says if I don’t reply I will be sent to court or 1000 pound fine. But I did reply. Following the email I previously sent about options to deal with this outside of court I stated:
The officers’ badge number: NTLxxx and the witness u. Pxxx both clearly stated I wouldn’t receive a criminal conviction.
I am more than happy to pay a fine and I can assure you this will not happen again. I am sincerely sorry.
(I don’t really know what else to say apart from being apologetic which I have)
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but couple times when returning I only paid for some of the journey because I didn’t find it fair how the trains were fully packed to the point you’d have to stand up and be squished together like a can of sardines.
Indicates that you have committed this offence before, but not been caught doing so.
I've got a little bit of sympathy here -Northern's letter is badly worded. But I think that Northern could argue that while it says what might happen if you don't reply, it doesn't say what might happen if you do. Realistically, I don't expect that arguing that the letter was unclear will make Northern go away.
@AlterEgo 's advice in post #15 is probably the best thing you can do. To put it in different words, you need to grovel and see if you can get Northern to agree that you can pay the fare you dodged plus some costs, instead of being taken to court. What Northern want to know is that you have learnt your lesson and you won't fare dodge again - and that means that your letter to them needs to be serious, and not trying to put any of the blame onto them.
If you want to draft what you are going to say and post it in this thread, there will be people who will help you on the best way to word things.
It says if I don’t reply I will be sent to court or 1000 pound fine. But I did reply. Following the email I previously sent about options to deal with this outside of court I stated:
It didn’t say just reply and everything will be OK. It is the content of the reply that is important not the action of replying and your reply was astonishingly bad. Not replying at all would probably have been better.
You didn’t apologise for your actions. You claimed you found yourself in a situation and took the wrong action to remedy it, when in reality you were deliberately fare dodging. You then had the cheek to complain about the service you didn’t even pay for and told them how happy you would be to get away without going to court. I’m sure you would be. You have also acknowledged you do that journey regularly and I would be amazed if they have not checked your purchase history and found further examples.
I know that email I sent was wrong. That’s why I’ve come here to get advice to rectify it. I have paid for every single ticket since December and I can assure you it won’t happen again. I admit what I did was wrong but taking me to court for this matter is too far I think. They never asked me to pay a fine which I would rather have done from the start but I never got offered one.
I know that email I sent was wrong. That’s why I’ve come here to get advice to rectify it. I have paid for every single ticket since December and I can assure you it won’t happen again. I admit what I did was wrong but taking me to court for this matter is too far I think. They never asked me to pay a fine which I would rather have done from the start but I never got offered one.
The thing is, not paying your train fare is a criminal offence. Whether the law is right or wrong or fair or unfair isn't the point - while the law says what it does the railway are entitled to take you to court. If they choose to go down any other route then that's because they're being nice to you.
As things stand, the railway is not being nice to you, although they are doing what they are legally entitled to do. So you need to put aside any feeling that they are being unfair, and concentrate on convincing them to be nice to you after all - and the best way to do that is to follow @AlterEgo 's advice in post #15.
It says if I don’t reply I will be sent to court or 1000 pound fine. But I did reply. Following the email I previously sent about options to deal with this outside of court I stated:
The officers’ badge number: NTLxxx and the witness u. Pxxx both clearly stated I wouldn’t receive a criminal conviction.
I am more than happy to pay a fine and I can assure you this will not happen again. I am sincerely sorry.
(I don’t really know what else to say apart from being apologetic which I have)
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The law is in place to allow the train companies to seek compensation and accountability from people that don't follow law, and particularly those who show no remorse for not doing so.
I suspect Northern will get a very easy conviction here.
The advice from here is to write to them again, promptly, in a much more conciliatory manner, the content needs to be
- an apology
- a recognition that you now understand that what you did was wrong
- a commitment that you have learned a lesson and won't do it again (the fact you have bought tickets every time since December is good and something they will probably see if you buy them on line from any on line retailer - they have access to all that info)
- a request that they are 'sympathetic and allow you to resolve the matter without the need for court action by paying the fare that you owe and their costs in investigating the matter'
so have a go at writing something that includes those sorts of things (and look at other threads for examples). Then post it here so people can help you get the wording as good as it can be.
I have paid for every single ticket since December and I can assure you it won’t happen again. I admit what I did was wrong but taking me to court for this matter is too far I think.
Well, ultimately right or wrong it's what people who break laws have to assume can ultimately happen, though I appreciate you may not have realised you were committing a criminal offence. However, the bottom line is they don't care - they take hundreds of cases to court every week across the country for railway ticket evasion and the government want them to take a tougher stance on it. It's a sausage machine process.
I expect you mean a Penalty Fare that you see posters about at stations. Not all staff are allowed to issue these so instead they report people for investigation and this is the typical outcome of those reports. Penalty fares are not really considered appropriate for deliberate evasion (ie a conscious decision to decide not to pay your fare) which if they suspect that is what you have done is another reason why you may never have got offered a Penalty Fare.
If it went to court you would be given a fine (that's the court sentence) but it would be much higher than the amount of a Penalty Fare, although almost certainly less than £1000. £1000 is the maximum a court can impose for this crime I think. But the problem is you also get a criminal record which can have other financial and non financial consequences that you probably want to avoid.
I've got a little bit of sympathy here -Northern's letter is badly worded. But I think that Northern could argue that while it says what might happen if you don't reply, it doesn't say what might happen if you do.
I can't see any adequate explanation for why the OP made the choices they did in the letter they replied with, so it's pretty obvious they're not going to go "oh okay then we'll let you off".
If it goes to court you would be found guilty (so you would get a criminal record - ie literally if you are found guilty of a crime, that is a recorded by the court and is in the public domain - you used to see lists of them in local papers - hence a 'criminal record')
And you would be found guilty because it's not a case of being able to argue over the rights and wrongs of it with the court - the offence is stepping on board the train without a valid ticket - you probably already admitted to that when you were stopped and questioned in whatever discussion you had with the ticket inspector so they have the evidence they need to secure a guilty verdict. They only need the evidence of one time to take it to court if they want to do so, and you would then have the criminal record.
So your objective has to be to avoid it going to court to start with - ie persuading them (pretty much grovelling to them as mentioned before) to allow you to settle the matter 'out of court' - there is then no criminal record because that settlement is an agreement not to take you to court in exchange for you paying them what you have evaded plus their costs (maybe about £150) in dealing with all this. If you can persuade them to do this it is important you have money available to pay it quickly and in full - such settlements are usually required to be paid in full and promptly.
The fact that you did it several times means that they might be less likely to agree to such a settlement, however, what we see on here is people who persistently evade and get caught and still manage to agree out of court settlements, so if you follow the advice here there is a good chance you can avoid going to court / criminal record.
I hope this is clear and makes sense to help you understand things.
On what grounds would you consider pleading not guilty? To be blunt, you give the impression of being a person who thinks they are entitled to do whatever they want without consequences and if that is the basis of your potential not guilty plea I would seriously consider rethinking, assuming this does go to court obviously.
The solicitor should focus on keeping it out of court to start with. As you are being advised to do here at this stage yourself, but you could ask a solicitor to help with that - but it is not going to be cheap to pay their fee.
You need to be aware that a solicitor's fee might cost £500 or more - but you can ask for quotes if you want to get an idea - and they can't change what has happened in terms of the offense, but they may be able to present your case and any mitigation more effectively than you can because they should have lots of experience of doing that for clients.
Many cases on this forum get resolved without people employing solicitors however.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
