Is it a practical solution to build a second line that operates like Victoria Line? What would be the issues? How might it help in London?

[Mgameing123]

To be fair, a big part of that could well be induced demand rather than previously suppressed demand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==



I think that's very true. I do wonder though whether it has capacity for a smaller extension just one stop to Herne Hill - which I believe has been thought about, and would confer the double advantage of better interchange with national rail, and (if I recall correctly from Internet chatter at the time when such an extension was being thought about) the ability to build better capacity for terminating trains than exists at Brixton.

I think the best we can do is extending the Victoria Line to Chingford or Stratford.

 

[35B]

Getting back to the issue of relieving capacity on the Victoria line - a random thought has just occurred to me. I bet if you could speed up the Piccadilly line between Green Park and Finsbury Park and make the Piccadilly service more frequent, a fair few people who currently use the Victoria line would swap. (Anecdotal example: I have a friend who regularly travels from Wood Green to central London, and who will normally change to the Victoria at Finsbury Park because the Victoria line into London is quicker - even if her final destination isn't on the Victoria line).

So how possible is it to improve line speeds on the Piccadilly line with a view to relieving congestion on the Victoria? What work would need to be done?

I’d start by asking which stations you’re planning to stop serving, as the key determinant of journey times is the number of stops.

As much to the point, the Piccadilly is already very busy itself, and your friend changing at Finsbury Park is creating capacity further down the line for others.

As Crossrail has done, I’d be looking - hard - at where new lines can create different connections that will take demand on different paths altogether.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I’d start by asking which stations you’re planning to stop serving, as the key determinant of journey times is the number of stops.

As much to the point, the Piccadilly is already very busy itself, and your friend changing at Finsbury Park is creating capacity further down the line for others.

The new Piccadilly line trains (coming from early 2026 and fully in service 2028) should both speed up journey times and also provide significantly more capacity, not to mention air-con which is important for me in the summer!

 

[Technologist]

or maybe just develop some other cities before London chokes on its own prosperity? (and sucks even more money out of the rest of the country.)

London doesn't suck money out of the rest of the country, at best is sucks talent though it also does a good job of sucking that out of the rest of the world taxing the outputs and then sending it out the rest of the country.

I see no reason why we can't walk and chew gum at the same time, the actual numbers of people engaged in a Cross Rail or similar are tiny at a national scale and to a good degree it would make sense having the people who do Cross Rail 2-4 stay in London and have a separate rolling programme of metro building in the north.

 

[may032]

London doesn't suck money out of the rest of the country, at best is sucks talent though it also does a good job of sucking that out of the rest of the world taxing the outputs and then sending it out the rest of the country.

I see no reason why we can't walk and chew gum at the same time, the actual numbers of people engaged in a Cross Rail or similar are tiny at a national scale and to a good degree it would make sense having the people who do Cross Rail 2-4 stay in London and have a separate rolling programme of metro building in the north.

A rolling program of metro / cross rail building… now that’s something I could get behind!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I’d start by asking which stations you’re planning to stop serving, as the key determinant of journey times is the number of stops.

As much to the point, the Piccadilly is already very busy itself, and your friend changing at Finsbury Park is creating capacity further down the line for others.

I don't buy that it's not possible to improve capacity on the Piccadilly line. In the first place, in my experience, Piccadilly line trains tend to run only about every 3 minutes, compared to every 1-2 minutes on the Victoria line, so there's clearly scope for improved frequencies. And while the time spent stopping at stations will put a limit on how fast you can make the line, it certainly feels when I'm on Piccadilly line trains like they tend to travel very slowly between stations, so I'd be surprised if there isn't scope to speed up things a bit, although I have no idea how much work that would involve to make a substantial difference. But I see @absolutelymilk says the new trains should help in both respects.

 

[Dstock7080]

Piccadilly peak is every 2½min
Victoria peak is every 100-105sec.

The new Piccadilly trains will be operating on the existing signalling, with only a slight increase in acceleration rate and would need to adhere to all the restrictions the current trains do.
They won’t have any provision for luggage, as the current trains have large stand-back areas by the doors and car ends.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think the best we can do is extending the Victoria Line to Chingford or Stratford.

Or even just one stop to Leytonstone.

 

[cle]

Hayes / Bakerloo makes tons of sense and is a huge upgrade on 4tph - 2 of which are slow.

People will be able to rip up (digital) timetables and have the freedom of the tube.

It’s no further than many places at the end of tube lines. And yes London Bridge is the main ‘con’ - it’ll require a change at Lewisham (many many tph) - but Waterloo/Embankment/Charing Cross will be roughly the same. And direct into West End and Paddington (many jobs despite what those on this forum say, and NR/LHR connections) will be far superior.

And quicker if you consider TUAG averages and one seat. And relief to Jubilee line especially but also Northern Bank branch. Whereas at Waterloo etc, the Northern has capacity. Cheaper too

The Beckenham leg makes this even more interesting for SE London.

And the 4tph SET out of London Bridge it frees up will be gladly received elsewhere.

 

[PGAT]

And the 4tph SET out of London Bridge it frees up will be gladly received elsewhere.

Would this allow through trains to Bromley North again?

 

[absolutelymilk]

Piccadilly peak is every 2½min
Victoria peak is every 100-105sec.

The new Piccadilly trains will be operating on the existing signalling, with only a slight increase in acceleration rate and would need to adhere to all the restrictions the current trains do.

Correct - however there are (currently unfunded!) plans to get new signalling which could bring it up to 36tph, i.e. same as the Victoria

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s20851/pic-20231005-item11-part1-Picadilly-line-Upgrade.pdf

 

[JonathanH]

Would this allow through trains to Bromley North again?

Bromley North doesn't really strike as a worthwhile destination, being a single lead on the 'fast' side of the formation at Grove Park. The challenge would be whether Bromley North, Grove Park and any stations on the way in from there can fill a 10-coach train into Charing Cross.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Would this allow through trains to Bromley North again?

Seems unlikely without some huge infrastructure investment at Grove Park, because any through trains to Bromley North would currently have to cross the fast tracks there, which would cause massive pathing conflicts. And as @JonathanH says, there are other destinations that will serve much greater numbers of passengers. Off the top of my head, if an additional 4tph became available at London Bridge, I'd expect the lines to Dartford would be the most likely beneficiaries.

Did Bromley North ever have through trains recently? I don't recall that?

 

[Mgameing123]

Or even just one stop to Leytonstone.

Wouldn’t that give capacity issues though if people on the Central Line change to the Victoria Line to go Central London?

 

[JonathanH]

Wouldn’t that give capacity issues though if people on the Central Line change to the Victoria Line to go Central London?

Walthamstow Central to Oxford Circus is 19 minutes
Leytonstone to Oxford Circus is 23 minutes

Therefore I suspect it would be fairly neutral and potentially reduce the number of people needing to connect at Central London stations.

Not immediately sure of the virtues given the ability that already exists to go from Leytonstone High Road to Blackhorse Road for the Victoria Line.

 

[Transilien]

Hayes / Bakerloo makes tons of sense and is a huge upgrade on 4tph - 2 of which are slow

All of them will be slow if the Bakerloo line extended

 

[cle]

All of them will be slow if the Bakerloo line extended

Hmmm - I would counter that you would have 2-3 min frequencies, brand new nippy stock, shorter dwells, much faster journeys through the South Bank stations (vs the trundle from LB approaches and through Waterloo East and into Charing Cross - agonizing) - - - - - and quicker journeys to many more places. Vs 2tph which get held a lot.

Even Ladywell-Hayes would likely be a smidge quicker.

 

[Cowley]

I’ve split a load of stuff about Bromley North into a new thread now:

Ideas to make the Bromley North line more useful

Seems unlikely without some huge infrastructure investment at Grove Park, because any through trains to Bromley North would currently have to cross the fast tracks there, which would cause massive pathing conflicts. And as @JonathanH says, there are other destinations that will serve much...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hmmm - I would counter that you would have 2-3 min frequencies, brand new nippy stock, shorter dwells, much faster journeys through the South Bank stations (vs the trundle from LB approaches and through Waterloo East and into Charing Cross - agonizing) - - - - - and quicker journeys to many more places. Vs 2tph which get held a lot.

Even Ladywell-Hayes would likely be a smidge quicker.

Indeed. For such a short distance frequency trumps speed.
(Says the person benefiting from frequent fast services to Victoria ).