London midland 150's

[mawallace]

Could someone help me please??

a. What 150's are in day to day service with London Midland? From the stock list I have it is:-

150001/2/3/5/7/9/10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/101/102/104/106/108/122/124/125/126/132

b. what services do they operate?

c. HOw many see daily use i.e how many diagrams are there?

c. Are they keeping them in long term?

 

[Crossover]

I can't help with all these but:

b. To my knowledge, they operate on all services through Snow Hill (so out to Kiddeminster and Worcester and the other way to Stratford-upon-Avon etc)
I believe there may be the odd working up the Lickey (contrary to popular belief, they are no longer banned from doing this as I understand it)

d. No - the majority will be replaced with Class 172's and the 150's will be cascaded to other TOC's. LM are, however, keeping 150001 and 150002 along with a few others

 

[Techniquest]

Sadly I don't have the diagrams, although I think out of their entire 150 fleet, all but all of them see use (one or two may be out of use during the day, I certainly counted an awful lot out last time I really looked) on weekdays. Indeed, during one of my recent Daytrippers I only saw one on Tyseley all day, although more could have been inside.

As for your query on IDs for their fleet, a quick look at your list suggests you've got them all there. I haven't got my NREA to hand to be sure, however it's 99% likely you've got them all in that list.

As sellis89 says, they work virtually everything through Birmingham Snow Hill, obviously with exception to Chiltern services. The 150s run all over the place between Great Malvern and Stratford-upon-Avon, all via Kidderminster, as well as running to Dorridge and at certain times of the day to Leamington Spa too. Great Malvern only gets a handful (<5 I think) of services operated by 150s.

Again as sellis89 says, LM are keeping a small number of 150s post-172-invasion, although IDs are yet to be confirmed.

 

[1V53]

Has it been decided who is taking the cascaded ones?

 

[Class172]

Could someone help me please??

a. What 150's are in day to day service with London Midland? From the stock list I have it is:-

There are also a couple of 150/2s knocking about, don't know which ones though.

b. what services do they operate?

Yes as everyone's said, they operate Snow Hill services. At weekends or other occasions (eg Bank Holiday) they can be found on HFD-BHM services

c. HOw many see daily use i.e how many diagrams are there?

Don't have a clue, at a guess 6/7 diagrams

d. Are they keeping them in long term?

LM will be keeping some 150s but which ones I don't know. I suspect 150001/150002

 

[asylumxl]

They often operate on the Marston Vale line down here too, which I don't think anyone's mentioned.

 

[DarloRich]

They need to keep some 2 car 150's for the Marston Vale line services as most platforms on this route are to short for a 172.

They cant use a 153 on each diagram becuase the peak trains would be badly overloaded with schoolchildren and workers at thre Bedford end

Asylumxl - beat me to it!

it is 1 x 150 diagram and 1 x 153 diagram per day ( being 4 or 5 retrun trips fro each unit)

 

[Class172]

They often operate on the Marston Vale line down here too, which I don't think anyone's mentioned.

I thought they were solely 153 operated

 

[DarloRich]

I thought they were solely 153 operated

nope one of each - when 2x 153 working one diagram each were assigned the servies were loaded heavily at times

also the councils MIGHT pay for the 150 to cover school transport needs

 

[Nym]

They need to keep some 2 car 150's for the Marston Vale line services as most platforms on this route are to short for a 172.

No, there not!

If you want the whole unit to fit on the platform the're too long, but if you discount the parts of the carrage with no passenger doors, all passenger doors would sit on all platforms according to the sectional appendix.

London Midland aren't confirmed as keeping any 150s yet by the DfT (Who insist on micromanaging everything), 26 carrages (10 units) are to be decided, but it would be an utterly stupid idea to see these left with LM,
1) they have enough stock ordered to replace all 150s with 172s
2) theres plenty of slack in the 150 diagrams anyway
3) If they only keep 150001 and 150002 that will offically be the worst microfleet in the country, they'd be much better used with Northern or Great Western (That will hopfully see 165/166 round Bristol displacing 150s to NT land soon anyway)

So to awnser if any are staying with LM, the officall DfT line is, that business cases are currently being made.

LM Being able to keep stock all the time when it ordered like for like replacment is getting rather irritating...

350/1 and 350/2 with a microfleet of 321 and now supposedly a similarly sized fleet of 150s

 

[sprinterguy]

There are also a couple of 150/2s knocking about, don't know which ones though.

That'll be 150214 and 150216
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't have a clue, at a guess 6/7 diagrams

I think the 150s operate rather more than just six or seven diagrams! As said in Techniquests' post, LMs' 150 fleet is used pretty intensively, with the vast majority of the fleet in service each day.

I'm not sure how accurate my estimation is, but working from the Monday to Friday timetable for the Snow Hill lines I calculated as a rough rule of thumb that there is a requirement for fourteen 150/0 three car units and nine 150/1 two car units. Three diagrams run as pairs of two car units throughout the day, and there is one all-day diagram for a five car 150/0+150/1 formation. There is also an additional five car 150/0+150/1 diagram during the morning peak only. AFAIK, the paired up two car units are employed mostly on the Whitlocks End services but I may be wrong about that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

London Midland aren't confirmed as keeping any 150s yet by the DfT (Who insist on micromanaging everything), 26 carrages (10 units) are to be decided, but it would be an utterly stupid idea to see these left with LM,

It's only hearsay, but it's been reported on this forum previously that LM will be retaining 150001/02/16/17 and 150202/4/6/10/20/26. This leaves 22 x 150/1 and 2 x 150/2 units to be cascaded to Northern and FGW.

This number of 150s reportedly being retained by LM matches quite neatly (Ok there's a difference of two carriages) the 26 additional 172 vehicles they have an option to order.

 

[mumrar]

b. To my knowledge, they operate on all services through Snow Hill (so out to Kiddeminster and Worcester and the other way to Stratford-upon-Avon etc)

To list all destinations through Snow Hill is Dorridge, Whitlocks End/Stratford, Stourbridge/Kidderminster/Worcester/Gt Malvern

I believe there may be the odd working up the Lickey (contrary to popular belief, they are no longer banned from doing this as I understand it)

They never had a ban against them working up the Lickey, this is some bizarre myth that seems to grow in stature every time it's mentioned. Every Saturday and Sunday you should see at least one diagram up the Lickey.

 

[sprinterguy]

3) If they only keep 150001 and 150002 that will offically be the worst microfleet in the country, they'd be much better used with Northern or Great Western (That will hopfully see 165/166 round Bristol displacing 150s to NT land soon anyway)

Great Western needs additional capacity too: If some of the Network Turbos move across to the Bristol area following Oxford/Newbury electrification, then they have eight class 143s that need replacing, through replacement by cascaded 150s, that could go to ATW to bolster Valley Lines services, as well as allowing longer 150 formations elsewhere with FGW. I suppose it depends how many of the 165s/166s moved across to the West Country following electrification as to whether it would be feasible to cascade 150s to Northern. If all the 165s moved that way I can see a good case for it.

 

[Nym]

Remembering aswell that some services around the Bristol area, such as Bristol - Cardiff will be able to be EMU operated. I don't know the services around that area well enough but I'm sure some of the local services would be able to move over to EMU operation aswell as using displaced Turbos.

EDIT: Back of fag packet maths time...

Thames Trains Diesel Digram Requirements post GW Electrificaton (Assuming Hereford services are not Turbo operated)

Greenford Branch: 4tph (as per crossrail plans) 2 diagrams
Windsor Branch: 3tph, 1 diagram
Marlow Branch: 2 diagrams (in peak)
Henley Branch: 1 diagram
Basingstoke 'Branch': 2 diagrams
Bedwyn 1tph slow: 4 diagrams

So. Thames trains will need 12 diagrams. Now, I don't know how busy Bedwyn services are, or what peak demands are, but the 166 fleet makes a nice peice of sense as the one to keep operating the paddingtoncentric routes, 12 diagrams, 21 units, plenty of slack, plenty of double-upability in the peaks. Even assuming 80% availability.

So....

37 unts going, one would assume, Bristol Bound, or Portsmouth - Cardiff, either way, if they stay in GW Land.

Their 8 remaning pacers, gone...

If the objective was to remove pacers, like for like cascade 150s to ATW from FGW, 30 of them, and that could displace all of ATW's Pacer Fleet, alternativly if the Valley lines become wired, not only displacing pacers, but more diesel units can be sent elsewhere.

The 165 fleet could be used on many places in the GW network, so long as the paperwork is completed. (I'm thinking stoppers between Bristol and Penzance)

 

[sprinterguy]

That's a very good plan Nym, and thanks for helping to clarify the Thames branch requirement: I've been trying to work out if it would be possible to send the larger fleet of 36 (One was written off at Ladbroke Grove) class 165s across to the West Country while the 166s would be sufficient to operate the remaining Thames area diesel services. It works out very neatly.

If, as seems is perfectly possible, all the 165s moved to the Bristol area then it seems completely reasonable to expect a cascade of at least some of FGWs' 150s elsewhere. While I'm loath to suggest more Pacers moving to Northern, I tend to expect the least from the DfT, and the most basic of cascades would send enough 150s to ATW to release their 142s to Northern, while ATW end up with all twenty five class 143s, pending potential electrification of the Valley Lines.

 

[Yew]

Are the aditional 172's likely to be ordered? or will the become a casualty of 'reducing the deposit'

a Uniform fleet for LM (ie 172's instead of minly 172's and some 150's in various forms) could be favoured by the DFT's current policy of making uniform fleets, and would help alleviate overcrowding in the north.

 

[adc82140]

What about the requirement for the Reading-Gatwick trains?

 

[tinselworm]

I don't know if it is relevant here or not but I got on this LM train at Weston-super-Mare...

 

[Turbostar]

That'll be either 153325 or 153333. They're on long term loan to FGW for the summer season, then due to transfer to FGW permanently once the lease expires at the end of the summer.

 

[Nym]

What about the requirement for the Reading-Gatwick trains?

12 Diagrams for the branches and 21 units, Reading to Gatwick I did forget, but requires 3 or 4 diagrams to run Reading - Gatwick (1hr30m 1tph), looking at the journey times and turnarounds, so thats then makes 16 diagrams for 21 units, now thats perfectly sensible, with some being doubled up in the peaks still.

This would mean that Hereford services would need to be Bi-Mode IEP operated, but the same could be possible for some of the Reading - Gatwick services if required.

Or if the route is elecrified with 3rd Rail, it could be taken over by cascaded 319s.

Either way, if Hereford services are run as bi-mode IEP or 180s, then theres plenty of 166s to go around, especially if the 180 fleet is used in companionship with the 166 fleet. And all Hereford services operated by Bi Mode IEP or HST (or god forbid 22x units in electrodiesel and cascaded from electrifying the MML, that is what I'd rather see happen)

EDIT: Should still, even with an increase in services, be able to rid the SW of england and Wales of Pacers if the 150 fleet is sent to ATW. Ie...

165 from Thames Trains to Bristol Area
150s from Bristol Area to ATW
Pacers from ATW to either NT or the scrappers.

Note: The 142s with FGW will be leaving back for NT soon anyway.

319s used on electric stoppers with a possible recast around Bristol to increase services.

 

[Techniquest]

They often operate on the Marston Vale line down here too, which I don't think anyone's mentioned.

Aye, I'd forgotten about that line when I made my post in the small hours of today. Way out of my area of expertise and familiarity I suppose. Dunno how I had forgotten about the 150/2s in use with LM, as I've been chasing after 150216 for ages and keep missing it!

 

[alex57601]

Remembering aswell that some services around the Bristol area, such as Bristol - Cardiff will be able to be EMU operated. I don't know the services around that area well enough but I'm sure some of the local services would be able to move over to EMU operation aswell as using displaced Turbos.

EDIT: Back of fag packet maths time...

Thames Trains Diesel Digram Requirements post GW Electrificaton (Assuming Hereford services are not Turbo operated)

Greenford Branch: 4tph (as per crossrail plans) 2 diagrams
Windsor Branch: 3tph, 1 diagram
Marlow Branch: 2 diagrams (in peak)
Henley Branch: 1 diagram
Basingstoke 'Branch': 2 diagrams
Bedwyn 1tph slow: 4 diagrams

So. Thames trains will need 12 diagrams. Now, I don't know how busy Bedwyn services are, or what peak demands are, but the 166 fleet makes a nice peice of sense as the one to keep operating the paddingtoncentric routes, 12 diagrams, 21 units, plenty of slack, plenty of double-upability in the peaks. Even assuming 80% availability.

So....

37 unts going, one would assume, Bristol Bound, or Portsmouth - Cardiff, either way, if they stay in GW Land.

Their 8 remaning pacers, gone...

If the objective was to remove pacers, like for like cascade 150s to ATW from FGW, 30 of them, and that could displace all of ATW's Pacer Fleet, alternativly if the Valley lines become wired, not only displacing pacers, but more diesel units can be sent elsewhere.

The 165 fleet could be used on many places in the GW network, so long as the paperwork is completed. (I'm thinking stoppers between Bristol and Penzance)

The only flaw in what's otherwise a good plan is that the platform at Bourne End where trains to Marlow reverse in to access the Marlow branch can only fit a 2-car 165. An extension is not possible due to the proximity of the points at the southern end of the platform and a busy A road at the northern end behind the buffers. So there would still be a need for a 2-car 165.

 

[mawallace]

Getting back to my question, Looking at the timetable these services all go through Birmingham Snow Street and Birmingham Moor Street.

If I wanted to take pictures of these units which station would you recommend?

Are they rail enthusiast freindly stations?

Any other suggestions as to where I could go to get pictures of them?

Is there a timescale for the replacement of these with 172's? i.e will it be this year? next year?When

 

[tbtc]

12 Diagrams for the branches and 21 units, Reading to Gatwick I did forget, but requires 3 or 4 diagrams to run Reading - Gatwick (1hr30m 1tph), looking at the journey times and turnarounds, so thats then makes 16 diagrams for 21 units, now thats perfectly sensible, with some being doubled up in the peaks still

The service is half hourly Reading - Redhill though
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While I'm loath to suggest more Pacers moving to Northern, I tend to expect the least from the DfT, and the most basic of cascades would send enough 150s to ATW to release their 142s to Northern, while ATW end up with all twenty five class 143s, pending potential electrification of the Valley Lines.

The realist in me would accept Northern being the dumping ground for all Pacers like this if it meant

• An overall capacity increase (e.g. if we get 18x Pacers to replace 18x 153s then fair enough)
• We were then in line for new units on 1 January 2020

They're not great, and I'd rather we had 100x 172s instead of all those 1980s railbuses. But they need to go somewhere for the next eight years (since we don't have the luxury of being able to scrap them).

Logically it makes sense to concentrate them in fewer places (allows more units to be placed in service, better spares, better for staff purposes), its a shame to be here but I can accept that.

Note that I'm not one of these posters demanding his local line gets electrified/ quadrupled frequency/ dozens of brand new units/ a new link from my local station to London etc etc, I'm trying to honestly appraise the situation here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Getting back to my question, Looking at the timetable these services all go through Birmingham Snow Street and Birmingham Moor Street.

If I wanted to take pictures of these units which station would you recommend?

Are they rail enthusiast freindly stations?

Any other suggestions as to where I could go to get pictures of them?

Is there a timescale for the replacement of these with 172's? i.e will it be this year? next year?When

The Moor Street ones are on a service with a ten minute service from Stourbridge to Tysely, so anywhere on that line would suit. Smethwick Galton Bridge has the attraction of the New Street - Wolves line passing underneath, so there'd be more trains to look at, but I've never stood on the platform to know what the "spotting" experience is like.

There are some nice views outside Snow Hill with the city centre behind the trains (http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5171885579/), get a ticket for the Midland Metro to access the stations inbetween etc

 

[TEW]

The only flaw in what's otherwise a good plan is that the platform at Bourne End where trains to Marlow reverse in to access the Marlow branch can only fit a 2-car 165. An extension is not possible due to the proximity of the points at the southern end of the platform and a busy A road at the northern end behind the buffers. So there would still be a need for a 2-car 165.

Some of the Greenford line platforms are two car only I believe as well. When the Greenford services are diverted to West Ealing I'm not sure how long the bay platform will be there.

 

[Techniquest]

Getting back to my question, Looking at the timetable these services all go through Birmingham Snow Street and Birmingham Moor Street.

If I wanted to take pictures of these units which station would you recommend?

Are they rail enthusiast freindly stations?

Any other suggestions as to where I could go to get pictures of them?

Is there a timescale for the replacement of these with 172's? i.e will it be this year? next year?When

Stations for photography, not hugely into photography so I've not taken much time to discover the best ones, but The Hawthorns has possibilities for interesting photos. One of my favourite there has to be this one:

I also liked this shot at Hall Green:

Dorridge isn't bad either:

Smethwick Galton Bridge, it's alright but you'll be constantly running around from the high level to the low level and vice versa. Photos of stuff on the high level lines can be reasonably gotten from the footbridge, although I have no example of this. One I do like from the high level is this one:

Granted, that's not the best shot in the world, as it would be better with the sun in the right place, but it does the job. I reckon a shot from the other platform of a Birmingham-bound train at that time of day would be better, but at the time that was not my primary concern!

As for Stourbridge Junction, it appears I don't have any photos from there online. However you can get some reasonable shots there. Acocks Green is pretty good, Small Heath ain't too bad either. Not spent much time at Birmingham Moor Street or Snow Hill in ages, but it depends what kind of photos you want. Fancy shots with impressive backgrounds (I think you might be able to manage that at Moor Street, but not sure) or just pure record shots to prove you've seen/photted something. Feel free to have a nosy around my photos at http://www.photobucket.com/techniquest and the various albums on there though.

Timescales, well they've been due for replacement by the 172s for a long time now, only due to the delays in their production are the 150s really hanging on. As for when the 172s start coming into service en masse, any time soon. If you want the photos/haulage/video/whatever, get up there now. This obviously applies to everyone, and welcome to all that join the club

I've never encountered a problem at any of the stations I've mentioned or any others in the West Midlands area, so spending a while taking photos and capturing video should be no problem.

Enjoy your trip, and do share your photos with us all afterwards

 

[Nym]

Fine, I stand corrected on some of the platform lengths etc. But broadly speaking, if you add the 180s into the '166/165' fleet on the Thames Trains routes, a fleet the size of the 166 fleet would be all that would be needed, and a fleet the size of the 165 fleet could head Bristol bound.

Bearing in mind I didn't have the faintest idea about the Thames Trains route timetables until I checked them this afternoon on NRE.

Should still be enough to send over enough over to Bristol, along with some 319s to displace all pacers from the South West and Wales, even without electrifying the valley lines. Although electrifying them would save countless diesel diagrams, allowing the ATW stock to be sent north (again) to either strengthen even more services, or cascade some pacers into Booth's or onto the East Lancs Railway.

(All we'd need post GW is to find enough routes to wire that would free up 91 diesel units, say 100 accounting for growth, or alternativly, order the equivilant of 100 units in the form of 172s)

I'll end it there before I drift even further away from the topic.

 

[DarloRich]

No, there not!

If you want the whole unit to fit on the platform the're too long, but if you discount the parts of the carrage with no passenger doors, all passenger doors would sit on all platforms according to the sectional appendix.

Are you sure - the ones at Bedford St John, Kempston Hardwick, Stewartby, Apsely Guise and Bow Brickhill are very short. It would have to be a 172/2 unit a /3 would not fit in any of the stations except Blectchley
You might have to move signals at a few stations as on at least 4 they are right on the platform end. Most of the stations have a level crossing right at the end of the platform to which may cause some problems

From speaking with LM it is clear they dont expect to run 172 on the Marston Vale line. 100 mph units would be wasted chuntering about on that low speed run.

Not that i dont want them you understand! I would love a nice new unit for my trip to work!

 

[Nym]

Well if there are so many issues, then why do they want to keep 150001 and 150002, they definatly won't fit..

 

[DarloRich]

Well if there are so many issues, then why do they want to keep 150001 and 150002, they definatly won't fit..

LM seem to think they will keep a small number of 2 car 150 units to cover these diagrams. They arent proposing to use the 3 car 150 hybdrid jobs down here. I bet LM just LOVE running this service. It is such an appendix for them! (as it would be for FCC!)

I think the service might go over to 100% 153 operation . Most of the day a 153 is enougth but not on the peak runs into Bedford.

Now if they could put on, say, top and tailed 20's with a few mkii....................