Passenger Assist Issue

[RPM]

A family member recently had a issue with a booked "assist" at a London Northwestern station. She was travelling with luggage and a baby in a pram and required help with the luggage whilst changing trains. She was met by two members of station staff on arrival, who took one look at the pram and said "we don't do prams" and walked off, loudly complaining that they were fed up with assistance bookings coming through for prams "which we don't do".

I appreciate that there may be legal/liability issues surrounding assistance for prams/buggies containing young children but the point remains that in this case the assistance was booked for the luggage, not the pram. Even if assistance is required for a pram then it could surely be safely delivered by getting the parent to hold the child whilst the pram is manhandled. In any case, when an assistance booking has been made, station staff should surely deliver it regardless of their personal opinions on the validity of the booking?

I have deliberately not named the station where this occured because I'm an interested in the general principle rather than directing bile towards the individuals involved but I'd be interested to hear opinions, particularly from those tasked with providing station assistance.

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[SCDR_WMR]

Please raise that as an official complaint. Was it LNWR station staff or Carlisle? Whilst they aren't supposed to assist with pushchairs, the luggage should have been assisted with at the very least, no point putting the passenger in a higher risk situation over the staffs' (incorrect) thought of only disabled passengers being entitled to the support.

Slightly off topic, but as a single dad of 2, I've had many years of getting pushchairs of various sizes on and off trains, and it really does frustrate me no end that people are unable to safely do it themselves. It's very simple and easy to do, yet at least half of the time I see it done dangerously or people won't attempt to do it without a 2nd pair of hands!

 

[james_the_xv]

On the national rail website it sets out the terms for helping with luggage (my emphasis)

Help with luggage​

If you are a disabled person, older or less mobile, and therefore require assistance with your luggage, you can request this in advance of your journey through Passenger Assist or on the day at the station.

All other passengers are responsible for their own luggage. In some stations you can make use of luggage trolleys.

Different train companies have different luggage policies on what staff can assist with. Please check the luggage allowance for the train company you are travelling with on their website before you travel.

I can understand the confusion, and it's probably worth being made clear when booking but, I assume it's blanket policy to only assist Disabled and Older passengers. I'd imagine this stops able people from abusing the system.

 

[deep south]

It does say "less mobile" and surely a mum (or dad!) will be much less mobile with luggage and a pram? Do you take the baby off first and leave it on the platform while you struggle to get the luggage off , or vice versa?

 

[Segedunum]

When I was charged with booking assistance, the policy was that assistance could not be pre-booked if it was simply that you had too much luggage or were handling a pram. Pre-booking was intended for those with those who were elderly, had a disability, and so forth.

However, it was also made clear that staff would assist to the best of their ability if approached. So either:

• The assistance should never have been booked in the first place and the person responsible for doing so should not have promised pre-booked assistance
• But, then staff on the ground behaved poorly in any case and chose to walk off. The sensible thing to do would be at least get them on the platform and explain that in normal circumstances, you can't pre-book assistance for this

Or:

• The assistance booking was in fact valid and the customer had another impairment which was not immediately obvious
• The staff saw a pram, made an assumption, and walked off anyway.

At some stations, the assistance service can be swamped so I can see why there'd be frustration - but its no way to behave. I've been called all of the names under the sun for just telling someone to approach staff on the day - and accused of wanting accidents to happen, children to be abandoned etc, and had comments left for my superiors to this effect.

In my view though, the booking was made and these frustrations can't be inflicted on the customer at the point of promised delivery to this extent. It was (seemingly) a cock-up by whoever has booked it - though behaviour like that by staff on the ground is extremely poor.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

For an institution so focused on health and safety, I'm surprised that the default is that those travelling with prams and luggage aren't afforded some assistance. I can quite easily see a situation where a lone parent in struggling with buggy and luggage and something goes rolling off a platform. I know it could be a slippery slope (no pun intended) to those travelling with lots of luggage asking for assistance, but I'm less worried about someone's smalls getting run over as opposed to someone small being run over!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I’ve just looked at the Northern and GWR websites and they both state that prams and pushchairs need to be folded.
Is that universal?

 

[BrummieBobby]

Have to say this annoys me no end; when travelling off duty as a passenger, if I see a parent with a pushchair, my first response is usually "Want a hand getting on / off?" similarly if I spot a woman with heavy luggage (Old fashioned I know but there you have it) Tellingly, many times I ask, people are happy for the help and are often shocked to be offered it. The fact that it is railway staff involved in this situation is frankly shameful.

When did helping each other become such an unusual occurrence?

 

[Discuss223]

A family member recently had a issue with a booked "assist" at a London Northwestern station. She was travelling with luggage and a baby in a pram and required help with the luggage whilst changing trains. She was met by two members of station staff on arrival, who took one look at the pram and said "we don't do prams" and walked off, loudly complaining that they were fed up with assistance bookings coming through for prams "which we don't do".

I appreciate that there may be legal/liability issues surrounding assistance for prams/buggies containing young children but the point remains that in this case the assistance was booked for the luggage, not the pram. Even if assistance is required for a pram then it could surely be safely delivered by getting the parent to hold the child whilst the pram is manhandled. In any case, when an assistance booking has been made, station staff should surely deliver it regardless of their personal opinions on the validity of the booking?

I have deliberately not named the station where this occured because I'm an interested in the general principle rather than directing bile towards the individuals involved but I'd be interested to hear opinions, particularly from those tasked with providing station assistance.

-

Here is an extract from the official London Northwestern webpage:

We support the rail industry Passenger Assist scheme which enables disabled and older customers to discuss and book their assistance requirements in advance of their journey. We can help with all aspects of your journey

Unfortunately, unless your family member was a senior citizen or registered disabled, there is no guarantee of assistance being provided.

That said, railway staff are expected to be helpful and courteous to members of the travelling public and should endeavour to assist customers who require help wherever possible.

Grumbling at customers is poor service and an unprofessional image; it's certainly not what TOCs ask of staff in the vacancy advertisements.

I'd advise making a note of the description of the Customer Service Officer, as well as any references associated with the assistance booking, and making a complaint about the attitude and dis-courtesy of the employee.

You can contact the customer service team by clicking this link. https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/contact-us/customer-relations

Customer Relations

What can we help you with?

I'd like to give some feedback
I'd like to make a general enquiry
I'd like to claim delay repay
I lost something on a train or at a station
I'd like to give some praise
I'd like to make a complaint

 

[Egg Centric]

Slightly off topic, but as a single dad of 2, I've had many years of getting pushchairs of various sizes on and off trains, and it really does frustrate me no end that people are unable to safely do it themselves. It's very simple and easy to do, yet at least half of the time I see it done dangerously or people won't attempt to do it without a 2nd pair of hands!

I agree it's incredibly easy to do as a man but many women / non able bodied men can't. I'm interested in how you've seen it being done dangerously though - it seems a bit of a binary thing to me, you can either do it or you can't. What are they doing that's literally dangerous?

The challenge though comes when you start combining with other luggage. If I'd brought my daughter and her pram with me today with my other luggage then there's no way I could have tackled a meaningful flight of stairs without going up and down again and nor could 90% of the population.

 

[TheAlbanach_]

Have to say this annoys me no end; when travelling off duty as a passenger, if I see a parent with a pushchair, my first response is usually "Want a hand getting on / off?" similarly if I spot a woman with heavy luggage (Old fashioned I know but there you have it) Tellingly, many times I ask, people are happy for the help and are often shocked to be offered it. The fact that it is railway staff involved in this situation is frankly shameful.

When did helping each other become such an unusual occurrence?

If the luggage is too heavy for the passenger, is it not too heavy for the staff member too?

The staff should have still helped with the luggage and let the parent deal with the buggy safely, if they were already there with them it would have surely been easier than leaving the passenger alone.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I agree it's incredibly easy to do as a man but many women / non able bodied men can't. I'm interested in how you've seen it being done dangerously though - it seems a bit of a binary thing to me, you can either do it or you can't. What are they doing that's literally dangerous?

Most common is pushchair first when leaving the train, usually tipping the child downwards. I've seen several children tipped out of the pushchair this way.

The other is where the front wheel on a 3 wheel pushchair hasn't been placed in the lock position and so when the weight it transferred to the single wheel on its own, the pushchair lurches to the side as it's almost impossible to perfectly balance when elevated. This almost always results in a total loss of control with the pushchair smashing into the side of the train.

Obviously these are simply my observations, not fact, but it is what I see pretty much daily.

I would say it's not totally down to physical ability as when I regularly show passengers how to beat board or leave a train they can quite easily do it, they just don't see the risks.

 

[KNN]

Passenger Assist shouldn't have booked it. I can understand why the station staff would be annoyed, as some people mistake it for a free porter service. Passenger Assist is intended for people who couldn't travel otherwise, not people who couldn't travel with as much luggage as they want.

But it's still worth complaining, it's not your family member's fault so the staff reaction was unacceptable (unless they lied when booking).

In my experience, had there been no booking then the person would likely have helped your family member get on the train, or another passenger would.

Personally I think there is a wider problem of entitlement and luggage with passengers. And it should be made far more clear that if you can't carry it yourself, or it's big enough to fit a body in, it's not suitable to bring. But that's been covered elsewhere.

 

[43066]

The fact that it is railway staff involved in this situation is frankly shameful.

I would, depending on the situation, offer to help someone with luggage or a buggy if I wasn’t at work (although keep in mind that in 2025 a lot of women don’t want men coming up to them and offering assistance).

If I was at work, I absolutely wouldn’t offer. That’s because I’m acting on behalf of my employer and, if I drop something and injure someone, that could have consequences for my ongoing employment. I’m afraid that means any concerns around chivalry or “doing the right thing” go out of the window.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2025 ==

On the national rail website it sets out the terms for helping with luggage (my emphasis)

I can understand the confusion, and it's probably worth being made clear when booking but, I assume it's blanket policy to only assist Disabled and Older passengers. I'd imagine this stops able people from abusing the system.

It seems perfectly clear from the text you’ve quoted that someone able bodied travelling with a buggy and too much luggage isn’t within the scope of what the scheme is intended for - ie a wheelchair user, blind person, very elderly person etc. and it seems a little selfish for people to try to use the system other than in those circumstances - it is not intended to be a free porter service!

 

[side effect]

I would, depending on the situation, offer to help someone with luggage or a buggy if I wasn’t at work (although keep in mind that in 2025 a lot of women don’t want men coming up to them and offering assistance).

If I was at work, I absolutely wouldn’t offer. That’s because I’m acting on behalf of my employer and, if I drop something and injure someone, that could have consequences for my ongoing employment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2025 ==



It seems perfectly clear from the text you’ve quoted that someone able bodied travelling with a buggy and too much luggage isn’t within the scope of what the scheme is intended for - ie a wheelchair user, blind person, very elderly person etc. and it seems a little selfish for people to try to use the system other than in those circumstances - it is not intended to be a “porter” service!

One of the reasons I left my hospital porters job was the rule that if a patient falls not to try and prevent them falling.

I could just imagine letting a patient fall with loved ones close by putting me in hospital.

Your job becomes more and more difficult as I would've have been fuming if that was my daughter who had experienced that rudeness, especially from trained staff.

Then again from my grammar I'm not the smartest egg in the basket.

I'd love to be able to write creatively like most of you on here.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

It does say "less mobile" and surely a mum (or dad!) will be much less mobile with luggage and a pram? Do you take the baby off first and leave it on the platform while you struggle to get the luggage off , or vice versa?

Less mobile is some one with a injury or condition the limits there mobility such as arthritis.

 

[Nippy]

Have to say this annoys me no end; when travelling off duty as a passenger, if I see a parent with a pushchair, my first response is usually "Want a hand getting on / off?" similarly if I spot a woman with heavy luggage (Old fashioned I know but there you have it) Tellingly, many times I ask, people are happy for the help and are often shocked to be offered it. The fact that it is railway staff involved in this situation is frankly shameful.

When did helping each other become such an unusual occurrence?

Yep, me too. When travelling off duty if I see anyone who may need help with a buggy or looking lost I offer assistance.

 

[TUC]

This does beg the question of what they would do about a disabled passenger needing assistance who had a child in a pushchair with them?

 

[styles]

This does beg the question of what they would do about a disabled passenger needing assistance who had a child in a pushchair with them?

That's entirely within the scope of the passenger assist scheme. Disabled passengers may need assistance with all sorts of different things depending on the disability - if it doesn't fit into one of the ~10 neat tickboxes on the Passenger Assist app, there's a free-text textbox at the end where you could detail that, e.g. you have an upper limb mobility issue and require help lifting a pram (or use of a ramp).

 

[TUC]

That's entirely within the scope of the passenger assist scheme. Disabled passengers may need assistance with all sorts of different things depending on the disability - if it doesn't fit into one of the ~10 neat tickboxes on the Passenger Assist app, there's a free-text textbox at the end where you could detail that, e.g. you have an upper limb mobility issue and require help lifting a pram (or use of a ramp).

I'm sure it does. My question was more speculating how the staff referenced in the OP would deal with such an issue, given their unhelpful approach?

 

[styles]

I'm sure it does. My question was more speculating how the staff referenced in the OP would deal with such an issue, given their unhelpful approach?

I expect (hope) quite differently.

Though I don't think they needed to take the attitude they did in OP's case either - there's a polite way of telling somebody Passenger Assist is for disabled, older, or less mobile passengers. Even then I'd have likely helped get the pushchair down safely given they were there anyway.

 

[Mat17]

...similarly if I spot a woman with heavy luggage...

Talking strictly about able bodied pax here:

Why are they carrying luggage heavier than they can handle and then expect a member of rail staff to assist, when they can't handle it themselves?

I wouldn't expect someone to do something I couldn't do myself.

Just a thought.

Obviously disabilities are a different scenario, although that said, rail staff may have hidden disabilities too - back issues, hernias, arthritis etc. Which may proclude lifting heavy luggage.

 

[RPM]

I expect (hope) quite differently.

Though I don't think they needed to take the attitude they did in OP's case either - there's a polite way of telling somebody Passenger Assist is for disabled, older, or less mobile passengers. Even then I'd have likely helped get the pushchair down safely given they were there anyway.

There is a polite way of doing it, but more pertinently, a correct time to do it; i.e. at the time of booking.

 

[WelshBluebird]

or registered disabled

May be nitpick but there is no such thing as "registered disabled".

The reason I think it's important to point out is two fold:

1. Lots of people have conditions that make them eligible for additional help, and this nonsense idea that you have to be "registered disabled" stops those people getting they help they should have access to because they don't even think they are eligible.
2. Lots of people seem to think that you are only edible for help with disabilities if you are "registered disabled", despite that not being able things and so will incorrectly deny assistance to people who they should be helping.

Not what has happened in OPs case here, but it's important to keep in mind because it leads to things like my now late friend who used to get hell all the time from people for sitting when elderly people stood, despite the fact my friend was undergoing serious chemotherapy for leukemia, or to another friend with IBS issues being refused use of disabled toilets etc.

Some councils do allow you to register with them but that is more for them to be able to better signpost you to services and help, and has nothing to do with if you are eligible for that help or not.

 

[RPM]

May be nitpick but there is no such thing as "registered disabled".

The reason I think it's important to point out is two fold:

1. Lots of people have conditions that make them eligible for additional help, and this nonsense idea that you have to be "registered disabled" stops those people getting they help they should have access to.
2. Lots of people seem to think that you are only edible for help with disabilities if you are "registered disabled", despite that not being able things and so will incorrectly deny assistance to people who they should be helping.

Not what has happened in OPs case here, but it's important to keep in mind because it leads to things like my now late friend who used to get hell all the time from people for sitting when elderly people stood, despite the fact my friend was undergoing serious chemotherapy for leukemia, or to another friend with IBS issues being refused use of disabled toilets etc.

Some councils do allow you to register with them but that is more for them to be able to better signpost you to services and help, and has nothing to do with if you are eligible for that help or not.

Not a nitpick at all. It all seems rather discriminatory.

 

[norbitonflyer]

May be nitpick but there is no such thing as "registered disabled".

Quite - you may be in a wheelchair because of a temporary disability like a broken ankle. I have nothing but praise for the help we had from Avanti when travelling to and from Manchester with my wife when she had done just that. (although Caledonian Sleeper were less helpful on a jpourney to Inverness)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2025 ==

Less mobile is some one with a ..... condition the limits there mobility such as arthritis.

Why does being six months old not count?

 

[43066]

I'm sure it does. My question was more speculating how the staff referenced in the OP would deal with such an issue, given their unhelpful approach?

Unhelpful to someone who, from what has been stated, wasn’t using the system as intended, and was potentially taking those same staff away from other people who legitimately needed their assistance.

there's a polite way of telling somebody Passenger Assist is for disabled, older, or less mobile passengers.

If they’ve already booked it, they should surely already know exactly what it’s for.

May be nitpick but there is no such thing as "registered disabled".

You aren’t required to be “registered disabled” to use the assistance scheme, though. However it’s clear that “too much luggage” isn’t what’s it’s intended for. As I say, it isn’t supposed to be a porter service.

Why does being six months old not count?

Because the assistance isn’t being rendered to the six month old, who isn’t travelling on their own, but with a parent. And buggies/pushchairs are excluded?

 

[styles]

If they’ve already booked it, they should surely already know exactly what it’s for.

Sure, but passengers who book Advance fares should also know that they're only valid on that particular train; passengers who hold Family & Friends Railcards should know they need to travel with a child to use the discount; passengers should know that at penalty fare stations if they board without a ticket and buy it on their phone on-board, it's not valid. But people make mistakes or mis-read things, etc. There's a polite but firm way of informing a passenger that Passenger Assist isn't simply for heavy luggage or pushchairs, there's no need to be rude unless the passenger is aggressive or is fully aware that they're abusing the system. I've got the Passenger Assist app on my phone as I use it when I travel with my mum (electric wheelchair user) - I can't remember if it gave any info when I installed it, but certainly if I make a booking now it doesn't state what type of passenger it is for. I can simply select 'Help with luggage' and make a booking.

 

[Adam Williams]

I've got the Passenger Assist app on my phone as I use it when I travel with my mum (electric wheelchair user) - I can't remember if it gave any info when I installed it, but certainly if I make a booking now it doesn't state what type of passenger it is for. I can simply select 'Help with luggage' and make a booking.

It's definitely not particularly explicit in the booking.passengerassistance.com booking flow as to the limitations/requirements discussed in this thread.

You are required to select an "access consideration" when first creating a profile. "Other mobility impairment" is one such option along with a free text field that the user could type literally anything into, but I couldn't find any guidance displayed to the user that would clearly suggest the use in this thread wouldn't be permitted.

I'm not saying people are wrong about the rules here - but the user interface doesn't do a good enough job at dissuading people from taking the mick.

Unfortunately I see this attitude from a retail perspective as well - TrainSplit has a "wheelchair access issue" reason for requesting a refund meant for e.g. failed assists, and it's routinely abused by able-bodied passengers despite a massive red warning block that is clear that it's for passengers with a disability who were let down on the day of travel. Usually because they bought an Advance and have changed their mind about travelling.

 

[styles]

Unfortunately I see this attitude from a retail perspective as well - TrainSplit has a "wheelchair access issue" reason for requesting a refund meant for e.g. failed assists, and it's routinely abused by able-bodied passengers despite a massive red warning block that is clear that it's for passengers with a disability who were let down on the day of travel. Usually because they bought an Advance and have changed their mind about travelling.

I agree that these things can be abused, and those known to be abusing it shouldn't expect a particularly amicable exchange with staff.

I do think in RPM's pal's case, there was a much better way of handling it and educating them. In fact, if their account is accurate (appreciate we only have one side here), then the staff have actually made a judgement about their disability or lack thereof, if they literally took one look at the pram and said, "We don't do prams."