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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

Yew

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On Tuesday, the prime minister said he would cut the foreign aid budget to fund the military boost - a move welcomed by the Trump administration but labelled a "betrayal" by development charities.


Whilst I support increasing defence spending, I'm rather concerned about cutting the aid budget, as those countries that rely on us for aid will turn to China, where money often comes with unsavoury strings attached.
 
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MotCO

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Whilst I support increasing defence spending, I'm rather concerned about cutting the aid budget, as those countries that rely on us for aid will turn to China, where money often comes with unsavoury strings attached.
But how much actually finds its way to helping the poor as opposed to buying new Mercedes for the dictator? Are any audits ever carried out? Would it be better to provide actual goods (tractors, irrigation pipes etc.) rather than cash?
 

DarloRich

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But how much actually finds its way to helping the poor as opposed to buying new Mercedes for the dictator? Are any audits ever carried out? Would it be better to provide actual goods (tractors, irrigation pipes etc.) rather than cash?

To be cynical: Surely, the aid budget is not about helping people. It is to generate, within those at the top of the recipient country, positive feelings about Britain so that when they want a new jet plane to bomb "rebel separatists" they buy British!

it is an inducement that doesn't class as a bribe! ;)

( OBVIOUSLY That isn't entirely true. )
 

geoffk

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On Newsnight last night, Caroline Lucas debated the defence spending/aid budget cut with the Times' Matthew Syed. Both agreed that increased defence spending was needed and Caroline made a good case for a wealth tax on multi-millionaires and billionaires, arguing that it was a far better choice than cutting overseas aid, which is intended to help the world's poor. Britain has huge wealth inequality and I wonder why Labour hasn't chosen this option. Surely it would be in line with their core values (although I'm not really sure what those are any more).
 

JamesT

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On Newsnight last night, Caroline Lucas debated the defence spending/aid budget cut with the Times' Matthew Syed. Both agreed that increased defence spending was needed and Caroline made a good case for a wealth tax on multi-millionaires and billionaires, arguing that it was a far better choice than cutting overseas aid, which is intended to help the world's poor. Britain has huge wealth inequality and I wonder why Labour hasn't chosen this option. Surely it would be in line with their core values (although I'm not really sure what those are any more).
I suspect the main reason is that wealth taxes are very hard to implement, have unwanted side-effects, and end up not raising as much money as is desired.
 

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I am afraid that, to me, it looks like pandering to the Reform vote, although I think there is an element of taking the wind out of Farage’s sails before he can complain about money going to foreigners (and not, say it not, being kept in the hands of British millionaires). I fully agree that the Defence budget has to go to up, but cutting the Overseas Aid one is both morally and practically wrong. The only think I hope, though without any real expectation of it being fulfilled, is that they will weed out some of those less justifiable projects and only keep the worthwhile ones.

I also suspect that this is not going to be the last increase in the Defence budget, but at least next time the billionaires will have one less thing to point at and say, ‘Make them suffer, not us.’
 

RT4038

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I also suspect that this is not going to be the last increase in the Defence budget, but at least next time the billionaires will have one less thing to point at and say, ‘Make them suffer, not us.’
Billionaires don't do pointing, they'll just salt the money away somewhere else. Either way, you won't get it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

But how much actually finds its way to helping the poor as opposed to buying new Mercedes for the dictator? Are any audits ever carried out? Would it be better to provide actual goods (tractors, irrigation pipes etc.) rather than cash?
I don't think any of it goes (directly at least) for a new Mercedes for the dictator. Most of it is value for credits for British products - British consultants and advisers, British training, British higher education places, British goods, British armaments etc Lots of gush (as opposed to trickle) down to British employment.
 

Richard Scott

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On Newsnight last night, Caroline Lucas debated the defence spending/aid budget cut with the Times' Matthew Syed. Both agreed that increased defence spending was needed and Caroline made a good case for a wealth tax on multi-millionaires and billionaires, arguing that it was a far better choice than cutting overseas aid, which is intended to help the world's poor. Britain has huge wealth inequality and I wonder why Labour hasn't chosen this option. Surely it would be in line with their core values (although I'm not really sure what those are any more).
The issuwith taxing the wealthy is they move to another country where they pay less tax and Britain gets nothing at all. Better to tax them less but at least get something from them. Whilst that might not sit well with some people that is reality.
 

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The issuwith taxing the wealthy is they move to another country where they pay less tax and Britain gets nothing at all. Better to tax them less but at least get something from them. Whilst that might not sit well with some people that is reality.
Land Value Tax can’t easily be avoided but is conveniently always left out of the discussion
 

MotCO

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I don't think any of it goes (directly at least) for a new Mercedes for the dictator. Most of it is value for credits for British products - British consultants and advisers, British training, British higher education places, British goods, British armaments etc Lots of gush (as opposed to trickle) down to British ememployment.
That's good if it's true, but do you have any examples of this?
 

Yew

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But how much actually finds its way to helping the poor as opposed to buying new Mercedes for the dictator? Are any audits ever carried out?
I've not seen any evidence to point to substantial evidence of significant levels of corruption. I'm sure that there will be at a low level, simply due to the level of corruption in the countries that these programmes are operating in, hwoever it seems that the Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office has active programmes of countermeasures in place to minimise such issues.

If you're going to assert that there is corruption at a substantial level, you're going to have to substantiate those claims.
Would it be better to provide actual goods (tractors, irrigation pipes etc.) rather than cash?
Perhaps, though it is important to remember the impact of Purchasing Power Parity, a given amount of cash will get you more assets in a developing country than it would in the UK.

Secondly, we have to consider the suitability of the materials provided. For example complex European tractors with supply chains needing precision components are unlikely to not exist in developing nations, are likely to be less useful than simple machines that can be maintained easier locally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's good if it's true, but do you have any examples of this?
The term that you're looking for is "Soft Power" it's a well known geopolitical concept.
 

zero

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Land Value Tax can’t easily be avoided but is conveniently always left out of the discussion

Exactly, and in this case the money is even supposed to be meant for defending the (value of the) land that is being taxed!
 

The Ham

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Land Value Tax can’t easily be avoided but is conveniently always left out of the discussion

If a land tax was introduced, then those trying to avoid it by selling up and moving would actually generate more money to HMRC through the tax still being paid by the new owner but also by the new owner likely to have paid stamp duty on the purchase.
 

zero

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If a land tax was introduced, then those trying to avoid it by selling up and moving would actually generate more money to HMRC through the tax still being paid by the new owner but also by the new owner likely to have paid stamp duty on the purchase.
Ideally a land value tax should entirely replace stamp duty.
 

Tetchytyke

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The issuwith taxing the wealthy is they move to another country where they pay less tax and Britain gets nothing at all.
They move their money to another country. They don’t actually move themselves because, ultimately, they don’t actually want to live where their money lives.

Example one: Michelle Mone. You’re more likely to see Lord Lucan in Douglas than you are to see her, even though she is supposedly resident here for tax purposes.

That nicely leaves us plenty of options to force them to live where their money lives. Start by doing away with the 180-day rule. But there’s no political will to do that. Given both parties are bankrolled by foreign billionaires, it remains a mystery why not.
 

geoffk

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Ideally a land value tax should entirely replace stamp duty.
I thought the original idea was that Land Value tax should be hypothecated to public transport investment, the argument being that house prices are enhanced by the presence of a rail or light rail route alongside - essentially taxing the "windfall" profit which landowners receive from improved accessibility and development potential.
 

MotCO

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If you're going to assert that there is corruption at a substantial level, you're going to have to substantiate those claims.
It was a genuine question and no suggestion of 'substantial' corruption.
 

geoffk

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That nicely leaves us plenty of options to force them to live where their money lives. Start by doing away with the 180-day rule. But there’s no political will to do that. Given both parties are bankrolled by foreign billionaires, it remains a mystery why not.
On tonight's Peston (ITV), Rebecca Long Bailey MP argued for a wealth tax to fund the increased defence spending, echoing Caroline Lucas on Newsnight yesterday. RL-B has recently served a 6-month suspension from the party over the continuation of the two child benefit cap. It seems that Labour has no intention of reforming Britain's regressive tax system.
 
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Gostav

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I've not seen any evidence to point to substantial evidence of significant levels of corruption. I'm sure that there will be at a low level, simply due to the level of corruption in the countries that these programmes are operating in, hwoever it seems that the Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office has active programmes of countermeasures in place to minimise such issues.
Unlike physical objects and actual projects, the biggest problem with "soft power" projects is that they are difficult to quantify, which makes it difficult to judge whether the project is a success or a failure, or whether it is complete corruption and fraud.

There are lot of stories about how those projects wasting money overseas , yes, all legal, no corruption. This is not to say that overseas aid is completely useless, but that the input and results are completely disproportionate. The worse is that their efficiency is so low that it has affected the normal operation of society.
 
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zero

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They move their money to another country. They don’t actually move themselves because, ultimately, they don’t actually want to live where their money lives.

Example one: Michelle Mone. You’re more likely to see Lord Lucan in Douglas than you are to see her, even though she is supposedly resident here for tax purposes.

That nicely leaves us plenty of options to force them to live where their money lives. Start by doing away with the 180-day rule.

Members of the House of Lords are tax resident in the UK no matter what, an oversight which recently made Lord Sugar have to pay £186 million of tax that he had thought he could avoid.

You imply that Mone spends most of her time in the UK yet is IOM tax resident. I don't know her circumstances nor the tax rules of the IOM, but how would getting rid of that rule change things?

If you are in the UK for 183 or more days in a tax year you will always be tax resident in the UK. This can be overridden only by a double tax treaty with another jurisdiction. If you physically spent the majority of your time in the UK, then the only way you would not be UK tax resident would be to have very much stronger personal and economic links to the other jurisdiction where you want to be taxed, and your reasons for being in the UK would have to be incidental (such as mainly for holidays). The UK would not agree to a double tax treaty stating otherwise.

I am currently not UK tax resident. Under the UK statutory residence test which is very clear, once I spend more than 45 days in the UK in a tax year, I will become UK resident again.

I believe a double tax treaty applies to me where I could spend up to 182 days in the UK without becoming resident, but I don't wish for this to be tested at a tax tribunal and therefore I am limiting my days in the UK to 45.
 

Magdalia

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On tonight's Peston (ITV), Rebecca Long Bailey MP argued for a wealth tax to fund the increased defence spending, echoing Caroline Lucas on Newsnight yesterday. RL-B has recently served a 6-month suspension from the party over the continuation of the two child benefit cap. It seems that Labour has no intention of reforming Britain's regressive tax system.
Rebecca Long Bailey was shadow business secretary in the Corbyn shadow cabinet and came second behind Sir Kier Starmer in the 2020 leadership election, where she was widely regarded as the "continuity Corbyn" candidate.
 

Yew

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Unlike physical objects and actual projects, the biggest problem with "soft power" projects is that they are difficult to quantify, which makes it difficult to judge whether the project is a success or a failure, or whether it is complete corruption and fraud.
Focusing on easy to measure metrics is what has led to a lot of stagnation in businesses over the last 40 years. Let's not make the same errors in running our country. If developing nations can't get money from us, they will turn to China, which often attaches much more sinister strings to its funds.
There are lot of stories about how those projects wasting money overseas , yes, all legal, no corruption. This is not to say that overseas aid is completely useless, but that the input and results are completely disproportionate.
I'm going to require you to provide some substantial evidence to back up these claims, as you seem to be asserting that the majority of aid is wasted.
The worse is that their efficiency is so low that it has affected the normal operation of society.
Could you clarify what you mean by that?
 

Tetchytyke

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I am currently not UK tax resident. Under the UK statutory residence test which is very clear, once I spend more than 45 days in the UK in a tax year, I will become UK resident again.
You will note my location, I’m well aware of the tax rules. It is very easy to manipulate your situation so that you don’t meet any of the tests- or at worst only meet the 90 day test- yet still spend 180 days a year in the UK.

Trusts are another way of getting around it, again with loopholes you could drive an oil tanker through.

Rebecca Long Bailey was shadow business secretary in the Corbyn shadow cabinet and came second behind Sir Kier Starmer in the 2020 leadership election, where she was widely regarded as the "continuity Corbyn" candidate.
And that’s why Keir threw her out of the party.

Blair, one of the best leaders the UK has had, generally kept the left-wingers inside the tent urinating outwards. He understood the value. Yes, even with Livingstone, who was re-admitted to Labour before his second Mayoral term.
 

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semantics - she was lobbed out of the party for a bit for breaching a three line whip
It isn't semantics, there is an important difference between suspension and expulsion.

Breaching a three line whip has always had potential consequences, it is how parliamentary party discipline is maintained.

Various events from the last 10 years shows what can happen when parliamentary party discipline breaks down.
 

Tetchytyke

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It isn't semantics, there is an important difference between suspension and expulsion.
She was (temporarily) thrown out.

Various events from the last 10 years shows what can happen when parliamentary party discipline breaks down.
I’d say the last ten years more shows what happens when any dissent within a political party is not tolerated. The Tories are in such a mess because Johnson defenestrated all the sensible moderate One Nation Tories and replaced them with headbangers.

Blair actively blocked attempts by others to have Corbyn thrown out of Labour, despite Corbyn routinely voting against the government. Blair understood the value of giving dissent an outlet. That’s why Blair was one of the best Prime Ministers this country has had and why Starmer, well, isn’t.

Refusing to tolerate a handful of rebels when you have a majority of 167 doesn’t make you a strong leader, it makes you a weak leader.
 

takno

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She was (temporarily) thrown out.


I’d say the last ten years more shows what happens when any dissent within a political party is not tolerated. The Tories are in such a mess because Johnson defenestrated all the sensible moderate One Nation Tories and replaced them with headbangers.

Blair actively blocked attempts by others to have Corbyn thrown out of Labour, despite Corbyn routinely voting against the government. Blair understood the value of giving dissent an outlet. That’s why Blair was one of the best Prime Ministers this country has had and why Starmer, well, isn’t.

Refusing to tolerate a handful of rebels when you have a majority of 167 doesn’t make you a strong leader, it makes you a weak leader.
Blair inherited a party which had been systematically stripped of extreme elements by Kinnock and Smith, and even then he had to deal with people like Galloway. Starmer inherited a party which had most recently actually been led by problematic elements. While some of them like Corbyn have been around forever without causing much damage, their period of leadership led to the recruitment of a whole new generation of problems.

In the current era of social media news, and a much higher level of extremely passive black-and-white interest on political issues, I don't think it's possible to effectively run the kind of large-tent parties that we've had in the past. Arguably you'd be better off with more coalition governments or alliances (like the SDP/Liberal alliance or the groups in Polish politics), where the differences and compromises are out in the open.
 

MotCO

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Blair inherited a party which had been systematically stripped of extreme elements by Kinnock and Smith, and even then he had to deal with people like Galloway. Starmer inherited a party which had most recently actually been led by problematic elements. While some of them like Corbyn have been around forever without causing much damage, their period of leadership led to the recruitment of a whole new generation of problems.
I think Blair was a politician first and lawyer second (in approach priorities, behaviour etc, not careerwise) whereas Starmer still acts like a lawyer and is not a natural leader.

Blair could read the country, or had good advisors - witness how he reacted and led the queen after Princess Diana died - whereas Starmer completely misreads it and ignores all the signs - just look at the Winter Fuel Allowance, the freebies etc.
 

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