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I think it is very difficult to speculate - if the conditions for deregulation were not there (i.e. Margaret Thatcher's government), why would there have been New Labour about 10 years later? It is pretty inconceivable that Margaret would not have done something to reduce the bus subsidy budget, in the conditions of rising costs and falling passenger numbers, and the general economic situation of the time. If you want to think about what would have happened if Margaret had not won in 1979, we might as well be speculating as to what might have happened if the 1930 act regulating buses in the first place had not happened. Country sinking into an economic swamp and living standards reducing thereby increasing public transport use, but that public transport being provided by desperate self employed minibus drivers as in many 3rd world countries? Who knows? All pretty worthless considering really, because we are where we are.
Obviously it is all speculation, but isn't that the whole point of this thread? I don't think deregulation was inevitable because of the Thatcher government as privatisation and competitive tendering short of deregulation would have been entirely in line with the style of government.
High public transport use is not necessarily as a result of poorer living standards. Some of the highest public transport mode shares are in some of the richest cities on earth.
To be fair to Northern General - the 'Go-ahead Northern' brand came out a couple of years before deregulation. It was certainly seen as forward thinking at the time, compared to other NBC concerns in the area and wider afield.
Well...sort of... They did begin to experiment with the brand about 18 months beforehand, and the marketing was ratcheted up in the months leading up to d-day. However, as many of their operations were in Tyne and Wear, there was a limit on what they could do. IIRC, the 1985 Olympians were delivered in yellow/white with T&W fleetnames. The 1986 Metrobuses were in the same livery but with Go Ahead Northern fleetnames, plus 11 coach seated ones (for the Co. Durham expresses) and they were in GAN Expresslink livery.
That said, they were very quick to repaint the fleet and the marketing was excellent in those days. I reckon that the old poppy red/yellow & white was gone within 18 months - FirstBus take note
I think it is very difficult to speculate - if the conditions for deregulation were not there (i.e. Margaret Thatcher's government), why would there have been New Labour about 10 years later? It is pretty inconceivable that Margaret would not have done something to reduce the bus subsidy budget, in the conditions of rising costs and falling passenger numbers, and the general economic situation of the time. If you want to think about what would have happened if Margaret had not won in 1979, we might as well be speculating as to what might have happened if the 1930 act regulating buses in the first place had not happened. Country sinking into an economic swamp and living standards reducing thereby increasing public transport use, but that public transport being provided by desperate self employed minibus drivers as in many 3rd world countries? Who knows? All pretty worthless considering really, because we are where we are.
Exactly. If we'd not had the winter of discontent, would we have seen the end of the post war consensus? I have always found it incredible that Thatcher got in by only 43 seats...
There are so many factors that are linked. Take minibuses... if deregulation wasn't coming down the line, would they have been introduced? Probably not. Then again, if the manufacturing sector hadn't been so impacted by job cuts, there wouldn't have been a massive pool of unemployed labour (11.9% in 1984) that could be employed driving bread vans.
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Obviously it is all speculation, but isn't that the whole point of this thread? I don't think deregulation was inevitable because of the Thatcher government as privatisation and competitive tendering short of deregulation would have been entirely in line with the style of government.
Compulsory competitive tendering was used in certain business areas like refuse collection. You have certain environments where it is simply more difficult to fully deregulate. How do you ensure that government offices are cleaned, or school meals cooked? Those are environments or services that meant CCT was the best means of increasing competition whilst ensuring that services were delivered. The winter of discontent showed what people do when bins are emptied!
For the most part, the government were very much in favour of privatisation and deregulation. Even though it was difficult, they still sold British Telecom and enabled new entrant Mercury to have their own phone kiosks, knowing that technological change would increase competition further.
Deregulation came to the express coach industry in 1980 so it was definitely going to be the way for the bus industry.
Obviously it is all speculation, but isn't that the whole point of this thread? I don't think deregulation was inevitable because of the Thatcher government as privatisation and competitive tendering short of deregulation would have been entirely in line with the style of government.
High public transport use is not necessarily as a result of poorer living standards. Some of the highest public transport mode shares are in some of the richest cities on earth.
Competitive tendering was not being considered in the provinces at that time. Competitive tendering still requires privatisation (or commercialisation of state undertakings) and the industry was being distracted by this privatisation and the implications of deregulation. It only came to London as a stop gap measure to try and reduce costs because the Government got cold feet on introducing deregulation there.
By and large Local Authorities did not have the expertise to do franchising then (or now!), and anyway, Margaret's Government were largely at odds with the State (Local or National) controlling where the routes went, the fares etc.
Never said that high public transport use is necessarily only the result of poorer living standards. But, the places you mention do not have the same social, cultural, historical and economic framework as ours. So they are not comparable, and there is no way of putting the private vehicle/ low density housing genie back in the bottle and attempting to change and emulate these other places.
Well quite possibly. We might have ended up with an AMTRAK type situation; hardly any buses but the skeleton service still operating costing an arm and a leg to provide?
To be honest, if comparing to America I wouldn't be surprised if our bus network would've ended up similar to over there.
Decent enough network in the big cities which had their own PTE's with better integration than we do now.
Once you leave the PTE's I could imagine it being a different kettle of fish, with a pretty much non existent service as they have better things to be spending money on with some areas being absolutely dire as an understatement especially areas which have a lot of council boundaries cutting through. The Darlington to Bishop Auckland or Durham to Hartlepool type routes etc.
Well...sort of... They did begin to experiment with the brand about 18 months beforehand, and the marketing was ratcheted up in the months leading up to d-day. However, as many of their operations were in Tyne and Wear, there was a limit on what they could do. IIRC, the 1985 Olympians were delivered in yellow/white with T&W fleetnames. The 1986 Metrobuses were in the same livery but with Go Ahead Northern fleetnames, plus 11 coach seated ones (for the Co. Durham expresses) and they were in GAN Expresslink livery.
That said, they were very quick to repaint the fleet and the marketing was excellent in those days. I reckon that the old poppy red/yellow & white was gone within 18 months - FirstBus take note
The old poppy red/yellow and white was definitely gone within 18 months. The leftover stocks of poppy red and yellow paint weren't wasted, thoug, as they were mixed together to create the Big Orange - GAN's response to any competitive strikes that were launched against it. Leftover stocks of blue paint were used for the wheels.
Seem to recall that the 1986 Metrobuses were delivered with the first 14 in yellow & white and the other 16 in red & white. However, the yellow was a lighter shade than the one used by the PTE.
The old poppy red/yellow and white was definitely gone within 18 months. The leftover stocks of poppy red and yellow paint weren't wasted, thoug, as they were mixed together to create the Big Orange - GAN's response to any competitive strikes that were launched against it. Leftover stocks of blue paint were used for the wheels.
Seem to recall that the 1986 Metrobuses were delivered with the first 14 in yellow & white and the other 16 in red & white. However, the yellow was a lighter shade than the one used by the PTE.
I do remember that innovative way to use up the old paint stocks! You remember the transition better than me (1986 deliveries); it was certainly a transformation in a short time.
By and large Local Authorities did not have the expertise to do franchising then (or now!), and anyway, Margaret's Government were largely at odds with the State (Local or National) controlling where the routes went, the fares etc.
Exactly - it was for the market to decide what provision was made (with the provision of support for socially necessary services being a piece of political expediency tacked on).
I was a student in Salford in the early-1970s and most Salford Corporation buses terminated at Victoria bus station on the Salford side of the River Irwell. From there it was necessary to cross the bridge on foot to access Manchester. There was a through service, I think the 95 & 96, operated jointly with Manchester Corporation but if any other Salford bus encroached on Manchester there would be uproar. It all seems rather pathetic now, but even under SELNEC the nonsense persisted.
Add to that other operators - Bolton, Leigh, Lancashire United. If it wasn't a joint-with-Manchester-Corporation service the route was cast out to the edges. It's also why Mayne were limited to Stevenson Square; they weren't allowed anywhere near Piccadilly! Only North Western got anywhere close, using Lower Mosley Street and Chorlton Street, but only "by arrangement" with MCT (as the timetable alluded).
Pre-deregulation, in many places where there were towns and cities with a predominant municipal operator, the council would make Tilling Group/BET or independent operators charge a minimum fare and/or pick-up/set-down conditions to protect the municipal operator, this persisted to some extent during National Bus Co days. Exceptions occurred where there were cooperative agreements, eg Portsmouth, Brighton.
Pre-deregulation, in many places where there were towns and cities with a predominant municipal operator, the council would make Tilling Group/BET or independent operators charge a minimum fare and/or pick-up/set-down conditions to protect the municipal operator, this persisted to some extent during National Bus Co days. Exceptions occurred where there were cooperative agreements, eg Portsmouth, Brighton.
Pre-deregulation, in many places where there were towns and cities with a predominant municipal operator, the council would make Tilling Group/BET or independent operators charge a minimum fare and/or pick-up/set-down conditions to protect the municipal operator, this persisted to some extent during National Bus Co days. Exceptions occurred where there were cooperative agreements, eg Portsmouth, Brighton.
It was a source of frustration that I could buy an NBC Explorer ticket and set off for trips up to Berwick, and as far as Whitehaven, Hull or Leeds (I could've got further but had to get home somehow). However, you couldn't use it on a United or Northern bus for journeys wholly within Tyne and Wear. Sadly, I had to wait until 1986 to see what Winlaton looked like
It was a source of frustration that I could buy an NBC Explorer ticket and set off for trips up to Berwick, and as far as Whitehaven, Hull or Leeds (I could've got further but had to get home somehow). However, you couldn't use it on a United or Northern bus for journeys wholly within Tyne and Wear. Sadly, I had to wait until 1986 to see what Winlaton looked like
Especially when the 310 (Blyth-Sunderland via the Tyne Tunnel, and thereby 'cross-border') was cutback to Sunderland-Whitley Bay 'Bandstand'. Doh! Had to buy many a ticket on that.
A favourite trip was travelling on the United to North Blyth (Cambois) and then crossing Blyth Harbour on the little motor boat ferry!
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I don't think deregulation was inevitable because of the Thatcher government as privatisation and competitive tendering short of deregulation would have been entirely in line with the style of government.
