Joe Duddington

[Sun Chariot]

I actually fronted the campaign for a headstone for my Great Grandfather and am still researching more about the World Record so I thank everyone for adding to my family history and the achievements of a pre-war record breaker

If you haven't already, it's worth you asking at the National Railway Museum's Archives dept - details below.
Given your Great Grandfather's provenance and his "noble steed" is in the National Collection, the NRM might have a fascinating archival information.

Research and archive | National Railway Museum

Whatever you're interested in, from engineering and industry to the social history of railways, our archives have the answer.

www.railwaymuseum.org.uk

Good luck!

 

[43096]

Indeed - the public for some reason find 4472 far more of a draw than 4468, or indeed any other steam locomotive, but it was nothing special.

• Not the first Pacific in the UK (The GWR's Great Bear was, and the North Eastern Railway was building a small feelt at the same time as the GNR)t in
• Not even the first of its class (that was 4470), of a class that eventually numbered 79
• One of several (and not the first) to make an unsubstantiated claim to be the first to reach 100mph. ("City of Truro" wants a word)
• Not the most powerful locomotive of its time (when exhibited at the British Empire Exhibition in 1924, it was shown up by Caerphilly Castle (GWR 4073) which, although smaller, could boast a bigger tractive effort).

Its main distinction was as the first privately-owned preserved main line steam locomotive on BR and, thanks to a unique deal between Alan Pegler and British Railways, for several years the only one permitted on BR track. It never ran in LNER service in the condition Pegler kept it, as an A3 No 4472 in pre-war LNER livery - it was not converted to A3 specification until 1947, by which time it had been renumbered 103. (It is sometimes, and more authentically, exhibited as BR No 60103, but this is less popular with the masses)

Let's be honest, the three most significant vehicles in British railway history are Mallard and HST power cars 43102/159.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you haven't already, it's worth you asking at the National Railway Museum's Archives dept - details below.
Given your Great Grandfather's provenance and his "noble steed" is in the National Collection, the NRM might have a fascinating archival information.

Research and archive | National Railway Museum

Whatever you're interested in, from engineering and industry to the social history of railways, our archives have the answer.

www.railwaymuseum.org.uk

Good luck!

presumably the museum kept info from this 2013 appeal

National Railway Museum seeks Mallard crew for anniversary

A search for people who crewed the record-breaking steam locomotive Mallard is launched by the National Railway Museum in York.

www.bbc.co.uk

extract

A search for people who crewed the record-breaking steam locomotive Mallard has been launched by the National Railway Museum.

The museum, in York, is looking for the engine's former drivers and firemen as part of its Mallard 75 celebrations.

The loco broke the world speed record for steam in 1938 at 126mph (203km/h).

Bob Gwynne, from the museum, said: "We wanted to ensure we could capture their experiences of working as scheduled crew on the East Coast Main Line."

The museum is hoping to host former Mallard crew in October as part of its celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the record run.

On that historic day in 1938, Mallard was driven by Joe Duddington, of Doncaster, who has since died.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @WesternLancer I had to read that extract a couple of times before I'd twigged that NRM's 2013 appeal was for drivers and fireman of Mallard during her 60022 years too... Grey cells a bit slow this evening!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the comments and really interesting to see that the record is talked about and what Mallard achieved. My Great Grandfather, Joe, was chosen because Sir Nigel knew he was the one with experience and ability to nurse “the old girl” to take the world record. I am very proud of him and of course Tommy to do what they did and put Mallard into British history

This is the doc I was thinking of

'Mallard - The Drake's Progress' by Anglia TV (so not BBC) this version as recorded from Channel 4's 'Going Loco' season which some forum readers may recall from c1989-1990 period
Written and presented by the legendary archive railway film collector the late John Huntley ( https://www.huntleyarchives.com/aboutus.asp )

I assume if you've not seen the programme you've heard the recording in it which is a recording of Joe D talking about the event at 8mins and again at 23 mins

Sadly the quality of the archive film has been degraded a bit in the you tube upload (maybe from a home video recording off the TV?) but it would not have been like that when broadcast I'm sure

 

[Sun Chariot]

Fabulous fascinating video. Thanks for finding it and sharing.
The other marvel (to me) of that 3rd July event, was that the ex-NER dynamometer car held up to such daring speeds!

 

[Mallard4468]

Thank you for sending those. I have been privileged to have represented the family in 2013 and at the Great Gathering and also in 1988 with my late mother. It is humbling to see the messages on here now and I am just trying to further my knowledge and have recognised the Duddington/Bray achievement for them as well as “the old girl”

 

[Bevan Price]

Experts believe that there was no way that City Of Truro could have produced enough steam / power to have reached 100 mph at the alleged location. Many consider that an error was made timing mileposts in the dark with a mechanical stopwatch.

Although less efficient than GWR "Castles", the Gresley Pacifics were "competent" performers - unlike the GWR's "The Great Bear", or the Raven NER Pacifics.

Flying Scotsman is probably better known because it has (mostly) been kept in working order since 1968, whilst Mallard is "fragile" and has mostly sat in museums.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for sending those. I have been privileged to have represented the family in 2013 and at the Great Gathering and also in 1988 with my late mother. It is humbling to see the messages on here now and I am just trying to further my knowledge and have recognised the Duddington/Bray achievement for them as well as “the old girl”

Thanks for your work to raise the awareness over the years and keep this important event in people's minds.

Your post has made me think that there really ought to be a statue or mural or some such (probably in Doncaster) of the record breaking crew perhaps along with Nigel Gresley, to commemorate the event given the record has remained for so long now.

I always watch out for the steel outline sign at the location of the record when travelling to or from Grantham.

 

[Spamcan81]

Hello @Mallard4468
Many thanks for sharing your family tie to Joe Duddington.
This page on LNER.info gives a brief story of his deserved place in UK railway history:

LNER Encyclopedia: The Gresley A4 Pacifics

Describes the streamlined Gresley A4 Pacifics

www.lner.info

I've attached the pertinent info, as the web page covers the A4 locos in more general terms too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2025 ==


Was that a secret and highly unofficial run, one month before British Railways' "Fifteen Guinea Special" steam finale?

I’d like to blame AI autocorrect but was a case of very bad brain fade.

 

[Mallard4468]

I didn’t want to raise that subject but it is one of my ambitions that they are both immortalised by at least a plaque as much as Mallard is. I am still in Doncaster and the town is almost a shrine to Mallard but as my original post asked . Does anyone know of Joe Duddington?

 

[WesternLancer]

I didn’t want to raise that subject but it is one of my ambitions that they are both immortalised by at least a plaque as much as Mallard is. I am still in Doncaster and the town is almost a shrine to Mallard but as my original post asked . Does anyone know of Joe Duddington?

It rather seems a bit obvious to me to have better local recognition - crew lived / worked / buried in Doncaster. 'Modern' historians tend to favour telling the stories of 'ordinary people' involved in achievements rather than just the 'great and good' that were typically celebrated in the days of yore. Assuming Doncaster Council are a labour authority you might think they would be well open to such an idea (funds permitting....). Assuming the crew were union members the rail unions might well support it too.

Do the houses where the crew lived still exist? (not demolished in some housing clearance programme since) - if so maybe the Civic Society might consider erecting locally organised blue plaques if they do that sort of thing in Doncaster.

Doncaster Civic Trust | Doncaster Civic Trust is an independent group of local people interested in Doncaster’s heritage.

Doncaster Civic Trust is an independent group of local people interested in Doncaster’s heritage. Founded in 1946, our aim is to help in the work of conserving and improving our town and its surroundings.

www.doncastercivictrust.org.uk

Just my personal musings.

 

[Mallard4468]

Thank you for your thoughts and input and it is something I will look in to

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2025 ==

And again, I would like to add that the amount of comments posted on this thread is very humbling and appreciated. The posts have been remarkable to me and gave me plenty of insight

 

[WesternLancer]

Sir Nigel Gresley, Mallard And The Steam World Speed Record - Northern Life Magazine

The 1930’s was the Golden Age of the railways, a time of great developments and iconic locomotives, driven by the race to provide the fastest service to

northernlifemagazine.co.uk

I wonder when that recording of Joe was originally made and when it was first broadcast?

eg was it recorded in the immediate aftermath of the event, or later in his career or retirement looking back on the event

 

[Harvester]

I wonder when that recording of Joe was originally made and when it was first broadcast?

eg was it recorded in the immediate aftermath of the event, or later in his career or retirement looking back on the event

Not immediately after the event as initially only 125 mph was claimed. He mentions 126 mph, which was not declared until some later date when the recorded data was fully analysed. The speed of 85 mph at Stoke summit is incorrectly stated, perhaps through memory, or maybe a typing error in the script?

 

[E27007]

I actually fronted the campaign for a headstone for my Great Grandfather and am still researching more about the World Record so I thank everyone for adding to my family history and the achievements of a pre-war record breaker

You may wish to buy a copy of Trained by Sir Nigel Gresley, Eric Bannister.
Bert Spencer and Eric Bannister were two key members of the Gresley entourage, Bannister was involved in the record setting run
Bannister had some hair raising exploits to relate, investigating bad yawing action of the Gresley Pacifics, Bannister had a seat installed in the narrow space in the frames, as the locomotive ran at express speeds, Bannister was in the seat observing the action of the Cartazzi axle

 

[778]

The reference would have been to the LMS record of 114 mph held by Coronation 6220. It is quite interesting to compare the run with that of 60007 on 23/5/1959 on a Stephenson Locomotive Society special. Bill Hoole had past Grantham at 75 mph on the latter, which he held to Stoke summit without having to thrash the engine. Mallard passed the summit at 74.5 mph (not 85 mph) and both were doing just over a 100mph at Corby Glen with 60007 running the better at this stage with plenty in hand. At 112 mph a few miles further on, Bill was told to ease off by the inspectors on the footplate, when speed passed the prearranged 110 mph.

I think I read somewhere that there was going to be another record attempt, but WW2 stopped it from happening?

Let's be honest, the three most significant vehicles in British railway history are Mallard and HST power cars 43102/159.

I don't think that these 3 vehicles are any more significant than Stephensons Rocket.

 

[Spamcan81]

I think I read somewhere that there was going to be another record attempt, but WW2 stopped it from happening?

Gresley was going to have a crack at 130 but the Austrian Corporal put paid to that.

 

[778]

Gresley was going to have a crack at 130 but the Austrian Corporal put paid to that.

Was is likely that Joe would have been been given the chance to break his own record?

 

[Harvester]

I don't think that these 3 vehicles are any more significant than Stephensons Rocket.

Rocket does indeed fit the progression (Rocket - Mallard - 43102/43159) of new speed records through the ages!

 

[Spamcan81]

Was is likely that Joe would have been been given the chance to break his own record?

No way of knowing that.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Cecil J Allen timed most of the notable high speed runs leading up to and including Mallard's record.
He gives an account of several in his book "British Pacific Locomotives"; copies of which are regularly available on e-bay etc.

In describing the Sir Nigel Gresley and the LNER's determination to clearly outdo the Coronation's 114mph he says:
"In Mallard he found the perfect instrument for his purpose, and in Driver Duddingston, of Doncaster, a fearless collaborator".

Obviously any driver entrusted with such a run will have been held in the highest regard, but that is a tribute from someone who was there on the day.

 

[Harvester]

By "Coronation", 29th June 1937. Arrived in Crewe rather too fast!

The 114mph was disputed by some recorders on board. The train was a press run for the ‘Coronation Scot’ due to be introduced the following week, but also an attempt to beat A4 Silver Fox’s 113mph set the previous year. Cecil J Allen for one, wrote that his timings gave 112.5 mph max before the brakes were slammed on, just 2 miles south of Crewe station. It was amazing that 6220 stayed on the rails after hitting the first reverse curve crossover approaching the station, from fast to slow, at 57 mph!

 

[Rescars]

The speed competition between the East and West coast routes has a long history, going back at least as fas as the Races to the North in 1888 and 1895. Then it wasn't just a mild bit of press coverage, but crowds out to watch the flyers, bookies taking bets, gangers fettling the line, etc. IIRC some of the loco crews were heroes in their day. All rather exciting and stirring stuff, even if not necessarily that safe. Today there are sorts of systems, controls and oversight to prevent any of this sort of thing happening again. Fortunately or sadly depends on your point of view, I guess.

 

[Taunton]

Did we do a link to the last time this was discussed on here a few years ago?

Joe Duddington memorial

There's a link below to a Doncaster Free Press article, about the Friends of Hyde Park Cemetery (in Doncaster) campaign to fund a memorial on Joe Duddington's currently unmarked grave in the cemetery. Speed record train driver lies in an unmarked Doncaster grave - let's campaign to change that...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[E27007]

The speed competition between the East and West coast routes has a long history, going back at least as fas as the Races to the North in 1888 and 1895. Then it wasn't just a mild bit of press coverage, but crowds out to watch the flyers, bookies taking bets, gangers fettling the line, etc. IIRC some of the loco crews were heroes in their day. All rather exciting and stirring stuff, even if not necessarily that safe. Today there are sorts of systems, controls and oversight to prevent any of this sort of thing happening again. Fortunately or sadly depends on your point of view, I guess.

Pete Norman Townend , Shedmaster at Kings Cross Topshed, made a comment of fast reliable daily services bring in revenue, not speed records

 

[WesternLancer]

Pete Norman Townend , Shedmaster at Kings Cross Topshed, made a comment of fast reliable daily services bring in revenue, not speed records

No doubt - but I would say that speed records get you good publicity. Good publicity gets you customers, fast reliable daily services keeps your customers. All taken together it increases your revenue.

 

[Harvester]

- but I would say that speed records get you good publicity.

And bad. Coronation 6220’s speed record, mentioned up thread, certainly didn’t generate any good publicity. It almost ended in disaster, and the LMS ended up apologising to the travelling press and guests for the violent lurches and crashing crockery experienced approaching Crewe. In fact the LMS never made another speed record attempt, and there are not many reports since of Duchesses travelling above 100mph.

 

[Bevan Price]

And bad. Coronation 6220’s speed record, mentioned up thread, certainly didn’t generate any good publicity. It almost ended in disaster, and the LMS ended up apologising to the travelling press and guests for the violent lurches and crashing crockery experienced approaching Crewe. In fact the LMS never made another speed record attempt, and there are not many reports since of Duchesses travelling above 100mph.

The LMSR did not have many locations where it was safe to exceed 100 mph, and in any case typical WCML train loads were often too heavy to allow really high speeds to be attained -- loads of up to 16/17 coaches were not uncommon until the 1950s and early 1960s.

The great unknown is whether on the ECML descent from Stoke Summit, what speeds might have been achievable with light loads by a Duchess - or even a rebuilt Merchant Navy. Alas, we will never know the answer.

 

[Taunton]

The great unknown is whether on the ECML descent from Stoke Summit, what speeds might have been achievable with light loads by a Duchess - or even a rebuilt Merchant Navy. Alas, we will never know the answer.

Or City of Truro .

A 3-cylinder loco is I suspect better for really high speeds because the cylinders were set to give 6 equally spaced thrusts per revolution. A 4-cylinder loco was almost always set to have an outside and an opposite inside cylinder thrust together, giving just 4 thrusts per revolution, not as smoothly balanced. I believe the Southern tried setting the cranks at 135 degrees to give 8 equal thrusts per revolution on the 4-cylinder Lord Nelson locos, but they never really attempted high speeds with them