Livery under Great British Railways

[michael8]

It's now such a very long time since we had a consistent corporate identity across the whole network, you would need to be at least in your late forties/early fifties to remember it. People have become used to particular services having a particular branding, even if that branding only registers with them superficially. I was travelling from Havant to Brighton in September and a Waterloo bound service arrived just before the Brighton train and one of the two woman immediately in front of me asked her friend if this was their service to which her friend replied, 'no, we need a green one.'

To save the huge expense of going through yet another cycle of years of re-branding (in my area it took around five years for the SWR brand to become firmly established), I feel the GBR should the holding company and for now at least, we should keep things largely as they are. After all, it's quite possible that we'll have another government in four years time and they may well decide that the railways should go back to being run by the private sector contractors again.

What a good idea. GBR as a back-office holding company, and keep the current "operators" as they are - it works extremely well in my opinion. Just a good way to make some efficiencies and greater co-operation, perhaps.

 

[generalnerd]

What a good idea. GBR as a back-office holding company, and keep the current "operators" as they are - it works extremely well in my opinion. Just a good way to make some efficiencies and greater co-operation, perhaps.

The issue with that is you then have to keep on buying different staff uniforms, painting trains upon transfer, etc. it think that will happen for a while but eventually it will become more economic to have them all as one brand

 

[Bletchleyite]

it works extremely well in my opinion

Thus spake someone who never uses either Northern or Avanti West Coast.

The railway does not work extremely well. It's an absolute and utter mess.

 

[Mike Machin]

I agree, there's an awful lot of issues that need to be resolved to create a better functioning railway, but much of this is 'behind the scenes.' On the question of uniforms for example, yes of course these should be standardised in time, but individual operating departments could easily be identified by staff badging etc.

As I said, SNCF is one organisation with a multitude of unit and locomotive liveries, but everyone knows that it is SNCF operating the system. With tight finances and a real need to keep the lid on public-sector spending, I suspect that other than the sort of small changes I mentioned in my previous post, the passenger railways in five or ten years time won't look drastically different from how they appear now. But, hopefully, we shall be seeing the benefits of GBR with better services and improved customer satisfaction.

 

[generalnerd]

Thus spake someone who never uses either Northern or Avanti West Coast.

The railway does not work extremely well. It's an absolute and utter mess.

I think he’s talking about the brands, not the operators themselves

 

[michael8]

Thus spake someone who never uses either Northern or Avanti West Coast.

The railway does not work extremely well. It's an absolute and utter mess.

You're right, my experience is limited to mostly the South East (which I think generally outperforms the rest of the network?) with the occasional trip on Avanti.. But...

I think he’s talking about the brands, not the operators themselves

You also are right, I just meant the way the "regions" are sort of divided up into regional networks or brands seems to be mostly very sensible ?

 

[Mike Machin]

I've just been reading through an article in 'The Railway Gazette this morning and looks as though to start with at least, the main functions of GBR will be to facilitate the pathways within the various parts of the railway network and its various constituent parts and to smooth the travelling process for passengers, as well as helping to promote freight.

I have access to the article because as a graphic designer, one of my clients in Norway is a major supplier of construction materials for railway tunnels worldwide so I am a subscriber, I will post a link to the article but I suspect many won't be able to access it. I don't want to risk copy and pasting it on the forum as to do so would break the journal's copyright.

But in essence, it looks like GBR is very much a 'behind the scenes' vehicle to facilitate change within the industry and although I could be wrong, I somehow doubt that we shall see much in the way of new liveries on trains for a considerable length of time - if at all.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/g...utm_source=RGeditorial&utm_content=newsletter

 

[Helvellyn]

It doesn't matter, because unless it's Grand Central or Lumo or you're in Wales/Scotland it's GBR.

Do you know something that Hull Trains, Merseyrail, London Overground and Elizabeth Line don't?

 

[eldomtom2]

I've just been reading through an article in 'The Railway Gazette this morning and looks as though to start with at least, the main functions of GBR will be to facilitate the pathways within the various parts of the railway network and its various constituent parts and to smooth the travelling process for passengers, as well as helping to promote freight.

I have access to the article because as a graphic designer, one of my clients in Norway is a major supplier of construction materials for railway tunnels worldwide so I am a subscriber, I will post a link to the article but I suspect many won't be able to access it. I don't want to risk copy and pasting it on the forum as to do so would break the journal's copyright.

But in essence, it looks like GBR is very much a 'behind the scenes' vehicle to facilitate change within the industry and although I could be wrong, I somehow doubt that we shall see much in the way of new liveries on trains for a considerable length of time - if at all.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/government-sets-out-its-plan-for-how-great-british-railways-will-work/68333.article?CMID=88A17C323-CMP257CON287-RCP2I88793O31&utm_campaign=RG-RBUK-RBA 2025-200225-JM&utm_medium=email&utm_source=RGeditorial&utm_content=newsletter

This article seems to be based on the A Railway Fit For Britain’s Future consultation - which definitely doesn't envisage GBR being "behind the scenes".

 

[Wivenswold]

Looking at this from a political point of view; renationalisation is popular with the electorate, it was in the Labour manifesto.
The PM will want to show everyone he's delivering on his promise. Therefore I think a few units will get the new livery on day 1. It's a political tap-in, to use a football phrase.

The existing liveries will be around for a bit. It took the original BR 15 years to fully* implement BR Blue and the Blue/Grey liveries by which time the BR Blue era was coming to an end.
*I'm excluding 40106, as that was repainted Green as a one off..at the time.

 

[Meerkat]

Looking at this from a political point of view; renationalisation is popular with the electorate, it was in the Labour manifesto.
The PM will want to show everyone he's delivering on his promise. Therefore I think a few units will get the new livery on day 1. It's a political tap-in, to use a football phrase.

The existing liveries will be around for a bit. It took the original BR 15 years to fully* implement BR Blue and the Blue/Grey liveries by which time the BR Blue era was coming to an end.
*I'm excluding 40106, as that was repainted Green as a one off..at the time.

If this was true they could have commissioned a livery and had it on one of the already government run TOCs by now.

 

[vuzzeho]

If this was true they could have commissioned a livery and had it on one of the already government run TOCs by now.

I think they'll want to do it when the benefits of GBR become more apparent to the OLR operators. Additionally, they're not technically GBR yet, so painting them in GBR livery would be improper.

Speculating on the livery, with LNER reintroducing IC Swallow on the IC225s, and SE bringing back NSE for that Networker, I think GBR is probably going to be retro-inspired.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Speculating on the livery, with LNER reintroducing IC Swallow on the IC225s, and SE bringing back NSE for that Networker, I think GBR is probably going to be retro-inspired.

They're both old, outgoing trains. Wouldn't it look odd on modern stock which will be like 95% of the railway by then?

 

[vuzzeho]

They're both old, outgoing trains. Wouldn't it look odd on modern stock which will be like 95% of the railway by then?

That's why I said retro-inspired. Not the same liveries, but inspired by them.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's why I said retro-inspired. Not the same liveries, but inspired by them.

These are tiny proportions of their fleet done in these liveries to please enthusiasts though. If it was the desire for their primary brand to be a throwback, you’d think the Azumas and Javellins would have one too

 

[ollyexe2808]

What a good idea. GBR as a back-office holding company, and keep the current "operators" as they are - it works extremely well in my opinion. Just a good way to make some efficiencies and greater co-operation, perhaps.

This doesn't fit with the current plans though - and indeed if GBR plan to have a single, unified ticket platform, then things could get quite confusing if you have a GWR brand owned by GBR, and you buy your GWR ticket from the GBR website or no longer have a functioning GWR app and have to use the GBR app etc.

I would have thought it will be a case that the operators will stay "as is" in the short term until a single unified brand identity and brand guidance is produced (and until a single ticketing platform is produced). IMO, I think a unified GBR brand would be better, with perhaps local variation to create local identities - for example, nothing wrong with having GWR Green "stripes" or similar alongside the BR Double Arrows.

 

[Helvellyn]

Speculating on the livery, with LNER reintroducing IC Swallow on the IC225s, and SE bringing back NSE for that Networker, I think GBR is probably going to be reretro-inspired.

Only one Class 91 carries InterCity Swallow. The rest of the IC225 fleet carries an InterCity inspired livery in layout terms but the colour pallette is firmly LNER's. The trains were due a repaint (they had Virgin Trains East Coast vinyls over the East Coast paint) and the livery design and LNER colours nicely allowed the livery they now carry.

 

[vuzzeho]

This is nothing, and I'm not suggesting it's something. But the latest version of the NR Wayfinding style guide has 2 IC Swallow HSTs on page 2. That's kinda funny.

 

[Class15]

This is nothing, and I'm not suggesting it's something. But the latest version of the NR Wayfinding style guide has 2 IC Swallow HSTs on page 2. That's kinda funny.

Out of interest which station is that supposed to be?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Out of interest which station is that supposed to be?

I think it might be Paddington

 

[Tobberz]

It wouldn't make sense to implement GBR livery now, even on govt operated TOCs. If GBR is meant to truly overhaul how British railways operate, then applying GBR branding before that had taken place would mean the public associate GBR with the same issues we currently have on the network. i.e., negatively.

Conversely, if the reforms are implemented behind the scenes over the next half-decade, and then GBR is "revealed" after said groundwork has been laid, it is more likely the public will associate the brand with positive change. Which, obviously, Labour wants.

 

[Skimble19]

This is nothing, and I'm not suggesting it's something. But the latest version of the NR Wayfinding style guide has 2 IC Swallow HSTs on page 2. That's kinda funny.

Even more bizarrely, they’ve got First Great Western liveried Class 150s behind them as carriages, so I definitely wouldn’t read into it

 

[vuzzeho]

Out of interest which station is that supposed to be?

Looks like Liverpool Street to me.

 

[Ghostbus]

Based on the below post and this apparent sense GBR is going to be a background thing for a while yet, here's an idea of what might happen....

There won't be a GBR livery until there are new train fleets being introduced. And it will only be applied to new trains until it's on half the fleet, then the remaining legacy units will be rebranded.

Before then, you can expect maybe only one off liveries to promote new fares and other major changes specifically announced and delivered by this Labour Administration in pursuit of its rail policy.

However, certain toxic brands might also get phased out, to be replaced by a very minimalist scheme. Maybe white with just a thin relief line and a small double arrow logo. Nothing brash, just subtle. Maybe in regional colours. Green for southern etc.

This will solidify on the minds of the public the connection of the GBR brand/s with the turning of the page, Starmer's promise. And for those paying attention, the benefits of a publicly owned railway being able to offer the private railway industry a planned and thus smoothed demand for new trains, to be rolled out with other Route level upgrades.

Looking at this from a political point of view; renationalisation is popular with the electorate, it was in the Labour manifesto.
The PM will want to show everyone he's delivering on his promise. Therefore I think a few units will get the new livery on day 1. It's a political tap-in, to use a football phrase.

I think you might be misremembering.

Here's the political dimension of railway renationalisation as I see it....

It was Jeremy's idea, a way to differentiate his new vibrant back to the grassroots Labour from the tired old spin machine and a man who couldn't eat a bacon sandwich (and I bet most people still dont realise he is now actually Energy Minister!). It was wildly popular, but evidently not so popular people were willing to overlook his alleged support for Hamas and all round revolutionary vibes.

It also wasn't exactly a smooth ride for Jeremy. He got caught allegedly spreading disinformation about one of our nation's most successful business leaders. So people got a massive reminder that this fantastic policy might not be grounded in reality at all. It might be just Jeremy playing on the naivety of people too young and stupid to have never even researched just how bad things were under British Rail. Something inextricably tied up with how bad things were under 70s Labour. Jeremy's brand. His general aim being to bring the band back together.

Last but not least, it was under Jeremy that it was first decided that for all the hopplah and razzmatazz of "Bring Back British Rail", they were only going to take back TOCs, and only as they expired. The kids didn't care because they didn't really even know any of that meant. But for wise and wizzened voters, it must have been very underwhelming. Adding to Jeremy's poor performance when it mattered.

So unless he's very careful, if he tries to wrap himself up in some brand relaunch, Starmer could end up needlessly reminding people about lots of bad things about various iterations of Labour. Reminding people it's not a very transformative policy, and it wasn't even his policy. Reminding people he purged Labour of the man who came up with it, and everyone for whom it was priority number 1. Absolutely symbolic of the revolution.

Reminding people that there's no way Jeremy would have been this slow to get things moving on GBR. Reminding people Starmer, like Jeremy, has already put out out several spin heavy statements regarding this policy. Announcing the Hitachi order for an open access operator, for example. I'm pretty sure they're not going to be in GBR livery eh?

Reminding people that Starmer's Labour is a lot more bacon eater and call me Tony that is or ever will be a real movement for real change. It is what it appears to be. Slow and steady. Not exactly in a rush on railways in particular. Last but not least, people know exactly what Starmer is trying to do when he stands behind Union Flags for the cameras, so it really won't wash if he stands behind a Union Flag adorned train.

He might not dare risk even doing it until he is absolutely certain that train won't be cancelled due to a driver shortage, points failure or strikes in its first month of service.

 

[Flinn Reed]

If all operators/regions are to get a standardised livery, I don't think this should be based on the flag. Looking at nationalised railways in other countries, very few brands are based on their flags. I think the NSE blue/red/white is quite jarring (and am not a fan of the London Underground livery either). None of the current privatised operators use a red and blue livery - Chiltern dropped red from theirs, and their current branding does look a lot better.

For a nationwide livery/brand, something more retro would make more sense, similar to GWR and EMR. The UK was one of the first countries to have a rail network, and has a lot of history around the railways, so this should ideally be reflected. A dark green livery would work well, having been used a lot historically - and in addition to GWR, is also now used by Caledonian Sleeper, Avanti, London Northwestern and Southern. Also, as the livery is likely to be used mostly for intercity/regional/rural services, a green livery would blend in better with the countryside compared to red/blue.

Alternatively, if they want to go for something a lot more modern, I quite like the idea of an orange livery, as used for paper tickets (as well as the Network Rail brand). Something similar to the old TGV livery could work well. I've also not seen Grand Central mentioned in these discussions - as a simple but unique livery. Perhaps an orange version of an EMR/Gatwick/ScotRail style livery for most services, inverted to something similar to Grand Central for intercity?

 

[eldomtom2]

It was Jeremy's idea

Was it? Do you have any evidence for renationalisation being reintroduced into the public conversation by Corbyn?

 

[Sorcerer]

If all operators/regions are to get a standardised livery, I don't think this should be based on the flag. Looking at nationalised railways in other countries, very few brands are based on their flags. I think the NSE blue/red/white is quite jarring (and am not a fan of the London Underground livery either). None of the current privatised operators use a red and blue livery - Chiltern dropped red from theirs, and their current branding does look a lot better.

For a nationwide livery/brand, something more retro would make more sense, similar to GWR and EMR. The UK was one of the first countries to have a rail network, and has a lot of history around the railways, so this should ideally be reflected. A dark green livery would work well, having been used a lot historically - and in addition to GWR, is also now used by Caledonian Sleeper, Avanti, London Northwestern and Southern. Also, as the livery is likely to be used mostly for intercity/regional/rural services, a green livery would blend in better with the countryside compared to red/blue.

Alternatively, if they want to go for something a lot more modern, I quite like the idea of an orange livery, as used for paper tickets (as well as the Network Rail brand). Something similar to the old TGV livery could work well. I've also not seen Grand Central mentioned in these discussions - as a simple but unique livery. Perhaps an orange version of an EMR/Gatwick/ScotRail style livery for most services, inverted to something similar to Grand Central for intercity?

While many nationalised operators don't have a livery based on the flag, using the flag's colours can still work, and in the case of GBR the transition team have used red, white and blue in their logo. Therefore using something like green or orange wouldn't be on brand. I also think that while the UK has lots of railway history, it would be hard to reflect that in a single brand since so much of it's history was under private companies. Hard to pay tribute to history if we use green on a part of the network where red might be more suited such as on former LMS routes. I don't think blending in with the countryside should be much of a factor either to be honest.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think the Networker painted into NSE livery today proves NSE is not an outdated brand. It looks glorious. Just needs the red stripe over the doors and it’ll look brilliant

 

[Class15]

I think the Networker painted into NSE livery today proves NSE is not an outdated brand. It looks glorious. Just needs the red stripe over the doors and it’ll look brilliant

I absolutely agree. It looks amazing and, despite being born well after privatisation, I think it looks far better than the liveries we have today, and the fragmented railway system in the South-East.

 

[Ghostbus]

Was it? Do you have any evidence for renationalisation being reintroduced into the public conversation by Corbyn?

Well "reintroduced into public conversation" is obviously a little bit broader than the context of what I said (an actual Labour manifesto), is it not?