Greater Anglia recommended buying tickets on the train

[saismee]

It is a legal requirement to have a valid ticket before you board and you commit a crime under the Railway Bylaws if you don't (and the station you boarded at has a ticket office or machine).

The key point is likely to be that the boarding station has a ticket machine and perhaps a staffed booking office. Therefore you are expected to buy tickets before boarding a train.

mods note - split from here

A guard on a Greater Anglia service recommended that I always buy a ticket from the guard as there is no way to get an invalid/incorrect ticket (during some troubles with ticketing). The station I get on is unstaffed but does have working ticket machines... would this technically be illegal as well? Sometimes a guard doesn't come through, which is why I have only done this when trying to buy tickets unavailable at the machines (which I have checked to be legal).

 

[AlterEgo]

A guard on a Greater Anglia service recommended that I always buy a ticket from the guard as there is no way to get an invalid/incorrect ticket (during some troubles with ticketing). The station I get on is unstaffed but does have working ticket machines... would this technically be illegal as well?

An offence under Bylaw 18 if it accepts your payment method.

Sometimes a guard doesn't come through, which is why I have only done this when trying to buy tickets unavailable at the machines (which I have checked to be legal).

That is not actually a defence under Bylaw 18. You are required to buy "a ticket" where the was the opportunity to "buy one" (note: not necessarily the exact ticket you want) for your journey.

Want to buy an annual season but can't, because the TVM at the small shack at Littletown obviously won't sell them and you need to get to Bigtown Central to buy the season? You have to buy at least a single to cover your journey to Bigtown Central. Condition 3 of the old NRCoC used to explain this very succinctly and explain you could effectively exchange that ticket for the one you wanted by paying the difference, but it was removed and the passenger is not instructed what to do in the current Conditions of Travel.

These say only:

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:

6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or

6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard an audible announcement to this effect; or

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, because

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or

6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or

6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not accessible to you.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed

 

[saismee]

An offence under Bylaw 18 if it accepts your payment method.


That is not actually a defence under Bylaw 18. You are required to buy "a ticket" where the was the opportunity to "buy one" (note: not necessarily the exact ticket you want) for your journey.

Want to buy an annual season but can't, because the TVM at the small shack at Littletown obviously won't sell them and you need to get to Bigtown Central to buy the season? You have to buy at least a single to cover your journey to Bigtown Central. Condition 3 of the old NRCoC used to explain this very succinctly and explain you could effectively exchange that ticket for the one you wanted by paying the difference, but it was removed and the passenger is not instructed what to do in the current Conditions of Travel.

These say only:

Interesting... I guess the machine must have been non-functioning on that day then!

 

[MrEd]

mods note - split from here

A guard on a Greater Anglia service recommended that I always buy a ticket from the guard as there is no way to get an invalid/incorrect ticket (during some troubles with ticketing). The station I get on is unstaffed but does have working ticket machines... would this technically be illegal as well? Sometimes a guard doesn't come through, which is why I have only done this when trying to buy tickets unavailable at the machines (which I have checked to be legal).

I find it very surprising that a guard would have said that, bearing in mind that there are very few stations left on the Greater Anglia network without any ticket issuing facilities at all. Most Greater Anglia services run within or into areas in which penalty fares apply and most major stations on this network have barriers. Revenue protection is generally quite robust. Most guards in my experience (certainly on the Cambridge-Norwich route) remind passengers that they are expected to buy before boarding if facilities are available - this is normal throughout the UK. For a guard to say otherwise is somewhat reckless and goes against the grain of Greater Anglia's revenue protection policy. They have not invested however many thousands of pounds installing ticket machines at stations throughout rural Norfolk and Suffolk to look pretty.

Unless your starting station has absolutely no ticket issuing facilities in working order, you are playing with fire by boarding a train without a valid ticket, as has been stated above. If there is a working ticket machine or a staffed ticket office, you *must* buy a ticket before boarding. If the facilities cannot sell the ticket which you require, best practice is to buy a ticket which at least allows you to commence your journey, then exchange this for the required one with the guard on the train or at the next stop if this has a staffed booking office.

P.S. guards are not infallible and can sometimes issue incorrect tickets which would leave you open to challenge if later inspected by a revenue protection officer. I have personally known guards to issue tickets with the wrong railcard discount applied or even for the wrong date. Not a criticism of guards - they do a very difficult job, of which revenue protection is far from the most important part. Guards are there primarily for safety and should not be treated as mobile ticket offices. Except in a few isolated very rural locations or where facilities are inoperable, it is your responsibility as a passenger to ensure that you have the correct ticket (or one that you will enable you at least to commence your journey) before boarding.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes, it says that you must have a valid ticket, but valid for what? Surely it means valid for the journey that you are making, from your departure station right through to your intended destination? So if the TV.M is unable to issue that ticket, you are entitled to board and buy your ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

I had an incident several years back, where the guard was unable to issue me a ticket to my cross-London destination, so insisted that I would have to buy a ticket to Euston and buy the excess there. When I got to Euston, the booking office there refused to sell me an excess. When I complained to the TOC, they refunded me, and clarified that I was entitled to travel to the first place that could sell me the correct ticket. I carried a printout of this with me for many years, but unfortunately the only time I had need of it, the guard refused to believe it.

 

[87electric]

Yes, it says that you must have a valid ticket, but valid for what? Surely it means valid for the journey that you are making, from your departure station right through to your intended destination? So if the TV.M is unable to issue that ticket, you are entitled to board and buy your ticket at the first reasonable opportunity.

I had an incident several years back, where the guard was unable to issue me a ticket to my cross-London destination, so insisted that I would have to buy a ticket to Euston and buy the excess there. When I got to Euston, the booking office there refused to sell me an excess. When I complained to the TOC, they refunded me, and clarified that I was entitled to travel to the first place that could sell me the correct ticket. I carried a printout of this with me for many years, but unfortunately the only time I had need of it, the guard refused to believe it.

There is not the option on the TVM at Newbridge for an Explore Valleys dayticket. I always buy on the train, which is an accepted practice. In fact any ticket is sold by the guards on the train on the Ebbw line towards Cardiff. Has been for years, even though there are buy before boarding posters all around.
I also do not understand the idea of buying any ticket from a TVM if the ticket that is actually desired is not available. That needs clarification if it is actually still a relevant instruction. It is not obvious. Permit to Pay I do understand, wherever that is a working practice. Rail ticketing is a minefield, we all know it.

 

[MikeWM]

There is not the option on the TVM at Newbridge for an Explore Valleys dayticket. I always buy on the train, which is an accepted practice. In fact any ticket is sold by the guards on the train on the Ebbw line towards Cardiff. Has been for years, even though there are buy before boarding posters all around.
I also do not understand the idea of buying any ticket from a TVM if the ticket that is actually desired is not available. That needs clarification if it is actually still a relevant instruction. It is not obvious. Permit to Pay I do understand, wherever that is a working practice. Rail ticketing is a minefield, we all know it.

It is not obvious at all - I've asked the question here a number of times relating to the Anglia Plus day ticket, which is not available from TVMs, and while Ely has a ticket office it seems to be closed more often than it is open nowadays.

As eg. I said here over 18 months ago

I've raised this in other threads a few times now - the answer appears to be 'nobody will tell you what the proper answer is' and so you don't have anything official to refer to if challenged.
Is it to buy a single to the first place that does have a staffed ticket office, and try to exchange? Or is it just to get on board a penalty fare DOO service and hope eventually someone will be able to sell you the ticket, and you don't get into trouble inbetween? However in the right I may or may not be, I'm not at all convinced that say a GN RPI between Ely and Cambridge would be happy with the answer that I'm trying to buy an Anglia Plus and that's why I currently have no ticket at all.

We don't appear to have made any progress whatever on answering this, which given how keen the railway appears to be nowadays to aggressively pursue any ticketing irregularity whatsoever, is an appalling experience for the passenger.

 

[The exile]

It is not obvious at all - I've asked the question here a number of times relating to the Anglia Plus day ticket, which is not available from TVMs, and while Ely has a ticket office it seems to be closed more often than it is open nowadays.

Indeed it must surely be possible in some areas to spend an entire day using a day ranger which tvms wont sell and never be at a station with a ticket office. Might take a bit of planning, but surely doable (especially as you cannot be expected to miss a connecting train to purchase a ticket at an intermediate station, I believe)

 

[saismee]

Today the same guard told another person to buy their tickets off the guard as its impossible to get it wrong (and if it is wrong, they have someone to blame). Interesting that someone is now also mentioning that they got PFed (Penalty Fare) for this same thing on GWR. Is it just "luck" or are the rules actually different? I know multiple people who buy their tickets from the guards because they are easier, and I've never seen anyone get a PF on a GA train.

Asking about Penalty Notice, I need advice!

Hi all, I originally posted this on reddit and they told me to come here. Today I received an unpaid fair notice for 59.80 for not buying a ticket for 2 stops. I asked the woman to buy a ticket on the train- something I have done many times if I have forgotten to buy a ticket and which every...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Hadders]

From a legal point of view you must buy a ticket before you board the train if there is an open ticket office or ticket vending machine that accepts your chosen method of payment. If you pass an opportunity to purchase a ticket for your journey then you commit a criminal offence.

If there are no ticket purchasing facilities where you start your journey then you can board the train and buy a ticket at the first opportunity, which will often be from the guard on board the train.

While I'm sure the guard is trying to be helpful what they said actually causes results in more confusion. Most guards are great but occasionally they will get things wrong - I'm sure some would struggle with some of my more complex ticketing purchases! I do wonder if what the guard said is motivated by the fact that they earn commission on tickets sold?

 

[sheff1]

From a legal point of view you must buy a ticket before you board the train if there is an open ticket office or ticket vending machine that accepts your chosen method of payment. If you pass an opportunity to purchase a ticket for your journey then you commit a criminal offence.

Rather difficult to buy a ticket if the open ticket office refuse to sell you the perfectly valid ticket you want. The argument then, surely, is that you have not passed an opportunity to purchase - would be interesting to see how that played out in court (and the media).

 

[Hadders]

Rather difficult to buy a ticket if the open ticket office refuse to sell you the perfectly valid ticket you want. The argument then, surely, is that you have not passed an opportunity to purchase - would be interesting to see how that played out in court (and the media).

We're talking hypothetical situations here. While I do know that some ticket offices have form for this (Sheffield springs to mind) we'd need to know the full circumstances to be able to advise properly.

Hopefully, as tickets like Rovers and Rangers become available at TVMs this sort of problem is likely to occur less frequently than before.

 

[sheff1]

We're talking hypothetical situations here. While I do know that some ticket offices have form for this (Sheffield springs to mind) we'd need to know the full circumstances to be able to advise properly.

It is indeed Sheffield to which I was referring. For example, they refuse to sell TfGM Wayfarers at all because "they" won't let them (No problem buying that ticket from various other out of area ticket offices of course). When they first refused to sell one to me I chose to buy a more expensive ticket and then put in a strongly worded complaint* which resulted in a full refund, so my journey was actually free. I believe I should have been entitled to board with a ticket just for the section from Sheffield to the Wayfarer boundary but was unsure how that would play out in practice on a non stop train.

* Unsurprisingly the complaint did not result in any change of policy at the ticket office.