PRO -- refreshments

[rocrat]

I often attempt to call/message TOCs to request refreshments during disruption, but I am yet to be greeted with any food or vouchers anywhere.

This even includes large termini (King's Cross, St Pancras, Paddington) and catered services (LNER).

Has anyone successfully used article 18 of Passenger Rights and Obligations to obtain anything?

The EMR desk that did once have water bottles at St Pancras has recently been removed... that was the only time I ever got anything!

 

[Dr Hoo]

The EMR desk services at St Pancras are now in the booking office/ reception /assistance facility just to the side in the main shed.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I often attempt to call/message TOCs to request refreshments during disruption, but I am yet to be greeted with any food or vouchers anywhere.

This even includes large termini (King's Cross, St Pancras, Paddington) and catered services (LNER).

Has anyone successfully used article 18 of Passenger Rights and Obligations to obtain anything?

The EMR desk that did once have water bottles at St Pancras has recently been removed... that was the only time I ever got anything!

What level of disruption are we talking about?

 

[LowLevel]

No one cares a fig for the PRO, or more accurately, has any idea what it is. Any refreshments obtained will be a total coincidence. It is the epitome of daft legislation in that hardly anyone, customer or company, is aware of it's existence and no one has ever succeeded in enforcing it either so far as I know.

It's a shame as properly regarded it could be quite useful, but there you go.

 

[AlterEgo]

No one cares a fig for the PRO, or more accurately, has any idea what it is. Any refreshments obtained will be a total coincidence. It is the epitome of daft legislation in that hardly anyone, customer or company, is aware of it's existence and no one has ever succeeded in enforcing it either so far as I know.

I know several people who have enforced it after the fact. But your general principle is right, in that most passengers and staff aren’t aware of this right, mostly due to an uninterested regulator.

 

[rocrat]

What level of disruption are we talking about?

At least 60 minutes (relatively easy when travelling to/from stations with 1-2tph), but even in excess of 4hrs (as I had last night) hasn't ever generated anything...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2025 ==

I know several people who have enforced it after the fact. But your general principle is right, in that most passengers and staff aren’t aware of this right, mostly due to an uninterested regulator.

It's quite frustrating... I generally get reasonable outcomes from the Rail Ombudsman, but it is incredibly frustrating up until the point of obtaining a deadlock letter and often not worth the effort.

The only bit of PRO that ever seems to be useful in practice is the right to re-routeing. The staff at Peterborough are excellent at actioning this, and I did also have joy at Birmingham New Street on one occasion.

Outside of Peterborough, the right to re-routeing seems to come as a misinterpretation of NRCoT 28.2 (albeit in passengers' favour) rather than an understanding of PRO...

 

[LowLevel]

At least 60 minutes (relatively easy when travelling to/from stations with 1-2tph), but even in excess of 4hrs (as I had last night) hasn't ever generated anything...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Feb 2025 ==


It's quite frustrating... I generally get reasonable outcomes from the Rail Ombudsman, but it is incredibly frustrating up until the point of obtaining a deadlock letter and often not worth the effort.

The only bit of PRO that ever seems to be useful in practice is the right to re-routeing. The staff at Peterborough are excellent at actioning this, and I did also have joy at Birmingham New Street on one occasion.

Outside of Peterborough, the right to re-routeing seems to come as a misinterpretation of NRCoT 28.2 (albeit in passengers' favour) rather than an understanding of PRO...

I'd be quite surprised to find any frontline staff or controllers except those who frequent this forum who have the slightest idea what the PRO is. It certainly doesn't feature in any training at my TOC.

There's an entire National Rail page linked here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/ on Passenger Rights and Obligations, none of which makes a mention at a cursory glance of "the" PRO.

Even where things are dealt with after the event as @AlterEgo refers, I can almost guarantee nothing about it ever reaches any staff involved.

It is literally like a black hole and that is why I refer to it as pointless - I've been working on the railway for years and the only time I've ever seen it mentioned is on here.

When the Consumer Rights Act started to apply to the railway there was a bit of a rush at the time to arrange things like refreshments vouchers for Select Service Partner undertakings and even for traincrew to issue but I've not even heard that mentioned for some years now.

 

[Watershed]

I often attempt to call/message TOCs to request refreshments during disruption, but I am yet to be greeted with any food or vouchers anywhere.

This even includes large termini (King's Cross, St Pancras, Paddington) and catered services (LNER).

Has anyone successfully used article 18 of Passenger Rights and Obligations to obtain anything?

The EMR desk that did once have water bottles at St Pancras has recently been removed... that was the only time I ever got anything!

I've never had it honoured "on the ground" but I have successfully claimed back my refreshment expenses on a few occasions.

This was only after initial refusals by the TOC though. On one occasion a TOC tried to rely on the NRCoT 28.5 wording which says that they "may, in certain circumstances" provide refreshments; this is of course rather a misrepresentation of the actual legal position under the PRO.

The TOC said as that they'd decided not to provide refreshments on this occasion, this was the end of the matter! Suffice it to say, that argument was given short shrift...

 

[rocrat]

I'd be quite surprised to find any frontline staff or controllers except those who frequent this forum who have the slightest idea what the PRO is. It certainly doesn't feature in any training at my TOC.

There's an entire National Rail page linked here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/ on Passenger Rights and Obligations, none of which makes a mention at a cursory glance of "the" PRO.

Even where things are dealt with after the event as @AlterEgo refers, I can almost guarantee nothing about it ever reaches any staff involved.

It is literally like a black hole and that is why I refer to it as pointless - I've been working on the railway for years and the only time I've ever seen it mentioned is on here.

When the Consumer Rights Act started to apply to the railway there was a bit of a rush at the time to arrange things like refreshments vouchers for Select Service Partner undertakings and even for traincrew to issue but I've not even heard that mentioned for some years now.

I do agree that in practical terms, it does seem to be pointless! It's a bit reassuring that I've not just had a bad run and that training really is so scarce on this, though that doesn't surprise me at all.

The Consumer Rights Act has generated me a fairly large amount of complimentary tickets and better compensation for XC catering fails...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Feb 2025 ==

I've never had it honoured "on the ground" but I have successfully claimed back my refreshment expenses on a few occasions.

This was only after initial refusals by the TOC though. On one occasion a TOC tried to rely on the NRCoT 28.5 wording which says that they "may, in certain circumstances" provide refreshments; this is of course rather a misrepresentation of the actual legal position under the PRO.

The TOC said as that they'd decided not to provide refreshments on this occasion, this was the end of the matter! Suffice it to say, that argument was given short shrift...

It does always entertain me when TOCs take the "may, in certain circumstances" take on this one...

I'm greatly looking forward to my initial refusal by the TOC in question!

 

[RPI]

I must say, I've never been made aware of this, I should probably know better, we are issued with refreshments vouchers though to give to passengers in times of disruption and are encouraged to use them, but as a goodwill gesture rather than any legal requirement. These can be redeemed at most SSP outlets and the on train catering trollies.

 

[Haywain]

The only bit of PRO that ever seems to be useful in practice is the right to re-routeing. The staff at Peterborough are excellent at actioning this, and I did also have joy at Birmingham New Street on one occasion.

The staff at Peterborough will have no more idea of PRO than staff elsewhere on the rail network and, in any event, would only have any PRO obligations if your delay has been caused by LNER. And if it has been caused by LNER they will assist because that is what they do, not because of PRO.

 

[Belperpete]

On a couple of occasions when there has been a severe delay, TfW have sent their trolley through dispensing free snacks and non-alcoholic drinks.

In contrast, when I pointed out to Avanti that they had caused me a 3 hour delay at New Street and that they should have offered me refreshments, their response was that the responsibility was shared between all the TOCs concerned. As they had no facility for providing refreshments at New Street, it was therefore up to either NR or TfW to provide them. And having claimed that it was NR's responsibility, they also helpfully pointed out that it was NR's policy not to provide them!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

There's an entire National Rail page linked here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/ on Passenger Rights and Obligations, none of which makes a mention at a cursory glance of "the" PRO.

For the bit I've put in italics, so what? Surely the important thing is that a customer gets what they're entitled to (and without any difficulty) rather than that the chapter and verse of why they're entitled to it is spelt out at every opportunity.

 

[LowLevel]

For the bit I've put in italics, so what? Surely the important thing is that a customer gets what they're entitled to (and without any difficulty) rather than that the chapter and verse of why they're entitled to it is spelt out at every opportunity.

Because they generally don't get what they're entitled to, let alone without difficulty - try asking a TOC to buy you a ticket for another TOC after a 1 hour delay . I just think it's quite funny that staff aren't told the PRO exists, they aren't trained to comply with it (which as you sort of say above) is the more important thing, and the passengers aren't educated on their rights - either what they are or how they are derived - if it was explicitly mentioned it would give the passengers some backup and it would also potentially help frontline staff understand the context of their requests.

Meanwhile even Ryanair have a detailed section referring to EU261 regulations etc on their website:

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/sections/12488602662545-Passenger-Rights

Personally, I've now educated myself as a guard and do my best, though rerouting can be a particularly difficult thing to achieve when other TOCs are involved - for my own TOC I just authorise it myself.

 

[Belperpete]

The regulator required the TOCs to better inform passengers of their rights to Delay Repay, by putting up posters and making announcements. This not only educates the public, but staff too. It is surely time that something similar was done to force TOCs to publicise passenger's rights during disruption. I doubt the TOCs will do it voluntarily.

 

[185143]

Greater Anglia at Norwich were very quick to offer me a refreshment voucher at Norwich in 2020 when I missed my connection to Berney Arms. I took the opportunity to partake in a 'Spoons breakfast anyway, so it was never actually issued.