Scotrail M-tickets withdrawn on certain routes.

[Russel]

mTickets need to be withdrawn full stop, the problem is ScotRail haven't migrated to eTickets unlike the rest of the industry.

Do we know why Scotrail are so reluctant to switch from mTickets to eTickets?

 

[Peter0124]

Do we know why Scotrail are so reluctant to switch from mTickets to eTickets?

Apparently etickets are a fraud risk according to a DM with Scotrail 2 years ago

 

[Watershed]

Do we know why Scotrail are so reluctant to switch from mTickets to eTickets?

They perceive eTickets as having too high a fraud risk. Just about every other TOC has been prepared to accept that risk though, so it's clearly ScotRail that are the outliers here...

 

[800Travel]

They perceive eTickets as having too high a fraud risk. Just about every other TOC has been prepared to accept that risk though, so it's clearly ScotRail that are the outliers here...

This is the bit that baffles me. Maybe it's just due to their network type, but it does seem odd ScotRail won't accept them given other TOCs do.

 

[Watershed]

This is the bit that baffles me. Maybe it's just due to their network type, but it does seem odd ScotRail won't accept them given other TOCs do.

They also already accept them for fares priced by other TOCs, e.g. London to Inverness.

 

[smsm1]

If I've set the GPS to make it like I'd never left the house, then the origin station would be displayed on the list. My ticket would match my journey.

My understanding is that they periodically take GPS locations along your journey and you also need the location at the end of the journey. Faking your location would be against the terms and conditions of the ticket.

 

[OscarH]

My understanding is that they periodically take GPS locations along your journey and you also need the location at the end of the journey. Faking your location would be against the terms and conditions of the ticket.

Using eTickets/mTickets, and buying after departure or refunding if not scanned is also against the Ts and Cs - that fact does not stop people doing fraud

 

[Starmill]

Faking your location would be against the terms and conditions of the ticket.

So... no different to buying a ticket for a shorter journey that's not valid for the one you made, then?

 

[rubikcuber]

So yesterday I used my workaround for the removal of the mTickets from Slateford to Haymarket, and the (unintended?) removal of the 20% discount on this journey's off-peak returns for Club 50 card holders.

Bought the ticket using the app on Sunday, with delivery to Smartcard for collection at station. After 90 minutes waiting for this not to appear in either the Scotrail or National Rail app for loading on to the card, I did the 1 minute walk to the station from the house and collected it from the station tap thingy. All good. Sadly the 0940 I wanted to use was cancelled. In this case my trip wasn't time critical so I got the 1034 train. However, my first attempt at the journey post mTickets is one of annoyance! In the past I would have been able to check that the train was running and not bought a ticket. However, because of the delay between purchasing the ticket and loading the card this wasn't possible. What a pain. In future I may have to start buying mTickets to Waverley and soaking up the 25p (!) cost.

Actually, I should probably stop being so lazy and walk instead!

 

[N1]

So yesterday I used my workaround for the removal of the mTickets from Slateford to Haymarket, and the (unintended?) removal of the 20% discount on this journey's off-peak returns for Club 50 card holders.

Bought the ticket using the app on Sunday, with delivery to Smartcard for collection at station. After 90 minutes waiting for this not to appear in either the Scotrail or National Rail app for loading on to the card, I did the 1 minute walk to the station from the house and collected it from the station tap thingy. All good. Sadly the 0940 I wanted to use was cancelled. In this case my trip wasn't time critical so I got the 1034 train. However, my first attempt at the journey post mTickets is one of annoyance! In the past I would have been able to check that the train was running and not bought a ticket. However, because of the delay between purchasing the ticket and loading the card this wasn't possible. What a pain. In future I may have to start buying mTickets to Waverley and soaking up the 25p (!) cost.

Actually, I should probably stop being so lazy and walk instead!

Is very poor Scotrail withdrawing these mTickets. You could give the Scotrail Tap & Pay App a go , as Club 50 Railcard discounts can be added to this AFAIK.

 

[David M]

For the hard of thinking (me!) can someone explain why e-tickets are better for either me, as the customer, or for Scotrail, as the operator?
I've used e-tickets on Northern but the ones I bought were always tied to a specific train (they offered lower prices for certain trains close to departure times, probably still do).
The only real difference seemed to be that they could be added to Google wallet.
I regularly use m-tickets on Scotrail and have no issues with them, they seem to work well from a passenger perspective.

 

[johncrossley]

For the hard of thinking (me!) can someone explain why e-tickets are better for either me, as the customer, or for Scotrail, as the operator?
I've used e-tickets on Northern but the ones I bought were always tied to a specific train (they offered lower prices for certain trains close to departure times, probably still do).
The only real difference seemed to be that they could be added to Google wallet.
I regularly use m-tickets on Scotrail and have no issues with them, they seem to work well from a passenger perspective.

E-tickets are not tied to a particular device. You can print them out, show the pdf on any phone or give them to someone else.

 

[David M]

Ah, ok, thanks.

 

[rubikcuber]

Is very poor Scotrail withdrawing these mTickets. You could give the Scotrail Tap & Pay App a go , as Club 50 Railcard discounts can be added to this AFAIK.

Tap & Pay is Scotrail's suggested alternative too. However, these are considered walk-up tickets and only get a 10% discount. It's actually cheaper for me to buy an mTicket with the 20% discount from the previous station. Also, if I was to not return via Tap & Pay (if I've just missed the hourly train, or if I've missed the last off-peak, I sometimes walk or get the bus back instead), I imagine it would charge me for a single which doesn't get a Club 50 discount at all.

My main issue is the lack of notice in withdrawing the mTickets. I got an email saying this was being removed and the next day it was no longer available. If they had a period of grace to figure out an alternative (and figure out any issues with those alternatives) it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[smsm1]

Tap & Pay is Scotrail's suggested alternative too. However, these are considered walk-up tickets and only get a 10% discount. It's actually cheaper for me to buy an mTicket with the 20% discount from the previous station. Also, if I was to not return via Tap & Pay (if I've just missed the hourly train, or if I've missed the last off-peak, I sometimes walk or get the bus back instead), I imagine it would charge me for a single which doesn't get a Club 50 discount at all.

My main issue is the lack of notice in withdrawing the mTickets. I got an email saying this was being removed and the next day it was no longer available. If they had a period of grace to figure out an alternative (and figure out any issues with those alternatives) it wouldn't be so bad.

As per the other thread, the tap and pay should charge the cheaper return fare where relevant:

It does super off peak. Even if you just make the appropriate single journey it charges the lesser super off peak return fare.

So worth trying and seeing what it does.

 

[Starmill]

So yesterday I used my workaround for the removal of the mTickets from Slateford to Haymarket, and the (unintended?) removal of the 20% discount on this journey's off-peak returns for Club 50 card holders.

Bought the ticket using the app on Sunday, with delivery to Smartcard for collection at station. After 90 minutes waiting for this not to appear in either the Scotrail or National Rail app for loading on to the card, I did the 1 minute walk to the station from the house and collected it from the station tap thingy. All good. Sadly the 0940 I wanted to use was cancelled. In this case my trip wasn't time critical so I got the 1034 train. However, my first attempt at the journey post mTickets is one of annoyance! In the past I would have been able to check that the train was running and not bought a ticket. However, because of the delay between purchasing the ticket and loading the card this wasn't possible. What a pain. In future I may have to start buying mTickets to Waverley and soaking up the 25p (!) cost.

Actually, I should probably stop being so lazy and walk instead!

Don't forget you can claim your compensation for the delay if you were 30 or more minutes late arriving. Albeit it's probably some insultingly low value compared to the inconvenience for a 56 minute delay.

 

[rubikcuber]

As per the other thread, the tap and pay should charge the cheaper return fare where relevant:


So worth trying and seeing what it does.

Ah, okay. Probably worth a try at least once. Although I'm not sure the Tap & Pay will work well with my phone. I use GrapheneOS which removes the Google location accuracy by default, so my location is purely GPS. But probably worth a go just to see. I've raised a complaint with Scotrail and have asked them to consider applying the 20% Club 50 discount to the Tap & Pay. I'm sure they wont, but at least in my use case (buying an mTicket as I walk to the platform) is no more of an "Advance" purchase to using Tap & Pay.

Don't forget you can claim your compensation for the delay if you were 30 or more minutes late arriving. Albeit it's probably some insultingly low value compared to the inconvenience for a 56 minute delay.

I have indeed put in a claim, although it's been referred for manual review. As you say it will be pennies. Of course, much to the shagrin of my better half, all of this righteous ire is over a 70p discount on a £3.40 journey I maybe take once or twice a week, so it's all about the pennies!

 

[Siemens Trains]

In future I may have to start buying mTickets to Waverley and soaking up the 25p (!) cost.

A couple of aspects mystify me here. Can't the fare evaders who boarded the service at Breich simply buy a ticket from Slateford to Waverley instead of Haymarket and similarly absorb the 25p extra?

In the past I've bought return tickets between Dalmeny and either Haymarket or Waverley and used them to successfully exit/enter through gates at Waverley or Haymarket respectively when I've changed my mind about where to alight or board. Pretty sure this has been true for paper and m-tickets, both using Club 50 discounts. To be honest I was surprised to hear the Slateford fare is sensitive to a Haymarket or Waverley destination as I thought they were essentially 'grouped'.

However the other day I found barriers at Waverley unwilling to accept my Haymarket m-ticket with Club 50 discount. The staff member just cheerfully let me through without question and I never found why the m-ticket was rejected. Perhaps they've become more strict about barriers checking the ticket is for a given station.

 

[Buzby]

However the other day I found barriers at Waverley unwilling to accept my Haymarket m-ticket with Club 50 discount. The staff member just cheerfully let me through without question

BTDT and it’s a common complaint. My ticket from Brunstane to Haymarket was accepted at Waverley on arrival but failed on departure because I had to change trains and go through 2 gatelines there.

 

[kkong]

They perceive eTickets as having too high a fraud risk. Just about every other TOC has been prepared to accept that risk though, so it's clearly ScotRail that are the outliers here...

ScotRail were running a procurement for a TIS (including eTVD) in 2024, so change may well be coming.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Feb 2025 ==

I can't see why that would be the case - if you can buy the smartcard ticket online the phone is just one way of loading it.

The ability to load tickets onto ScotRail smartcard using the ScotRail app on your phone seems to have stopped working some time ago (last time I checked in January, anyway).

 

[MrJeeves]

ScotRail were running a procurement for a TIS (including eTVD) in 2024, so change may well be coming.

It's not like Trainline don't support E-Tickets or don't have access to barcoded ticket scan data, though?

 

[kkong]

It's not like Trainline don't support E-Tickets or don't have access to barcoded ticket scan data, though?

I don't have an insight into the thinking of Transport Scotland / Scottish Rail Holdings / ScotRail.

However the procurement specification suggests they want something better than what they currently have.

ScotRail Trains require a technology partner with proven expertise and innovative vision to develop and implement a user-centric website, app, and Smart Kiosks, powered by a single centralised TIS (Ticket Issuing System) that sets the benchmark for UK rail ticketing, this will require procuring a state-of-the-art multi-channel e-commerce solution that redefines convenience, accessibility, and value for our passengers.

II.2.4) Description of the procurement
ScotRail is looking to procure the following solution:

• Central TIS ‘backend’
• eCommerce website and mobile app
• eTVD (Electronic Ticket Validation Database)
• Smart Kiosks
• Call Centre TIS and Account Management Application
• FUTURE OPTION: Handheld TIS (Ticket Issuing System)
• FUTURE OPTION: Ticket Office TIS (Ticket Issuing System)

II.2.5) Award criteria
Quality criterion: Technical Expertise / Weighting: 70
Price / Weighting: 30

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

Airline tickets, cinema tickets, sporting tickets, visitor attractions are almost always e-tickets thesedays. The railway cannot ignore this, the world moves on.

Each of those scenarios is somewhat different to railway ticketing.

You don't see many people boarding aircraft, or entering a cinema, sports stadium or visitor attraction without having a valid ticket (or by using a ticket bought for a different - cheaper - flight or event).

 

[Haywain]

However the procurement specification suggests they want something better than what they currently have.

Does this all sound horribly familiar, @Wallsendmag?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

Each of those scenarios is somewhat different to railway ticketing.

You don't see many people boarding aircraft, or entering a cinema, sports stadium or visitor attraction without having a valid ticket (or by using a ticket bought for a different - cheaper - flight or event).

What has any of that got to do with using eTickets?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does this all sound horribly familiar, @Wallsendmag?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

OMG give up now and save time.

 

[kkong]

What has any of that got to do with using eTickets?

Why is there so much hate on this forum for mTickets and so much love for eTickets as an alternative?

I personally don't use them very often, but up here in ScotRail land, I don't see passengers hating them.

Passengers don't even mention eTickets, they just open their app and show the ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why is there so much hate on this forum for mTickets and so much love for eTickets as an alternative?

I personally don't use them very often, but up here in ScotRail land, I don't see passengers hating them.

Passengers don't even mention eTickets, they just open their app and show the ticket.

mTickets invalidate themselves after day 1
mTickets need to be in their native app
mTickets are gen 1 Smart Tickets and are well past their sell by date
There are very few eTickets available in Scotland so unless people have travelled cross border they probably don't know about them

 

[Haywain]

Why is there so much hate on this forum for mTickets and so much love for eTickets as an alternative?

I personally don't use them very often, but up here in ScotRail land, I don't see passengers hating them.

Passengers don't even mention eTickets, they just open their app and show the ticket.

That's not an answer to my question. And mTickets are no more of an answer. You seem to be suggesting that eTickets don't work because some people don't buy tickets, but it doesn't matter what format the tickets are in if they're not buying them.

 

[Buzby]

I became wary of mTickets when the station WiFi forcibly de-registered me from the ScotRail app as the train pulled in. I’m required to activate my ticket for travel, but the issue of the moment was I didn’t have the password stored (as every one is different). It took 8 attempts to unlock the app just to get to the ticket. E-tickets OTOH can be stored in my phone wallet and be accessed when I need them, not have spurious hurdles put in my way.

 

[Adam Williams]

mTickets invalidate themselves after day 1
mTickets need to be in their native app
mTickets are gen 1 Smart Tickets and are well past their sell by date
There are very few eTickets available in Scotland so unless people have travelled cross border they probably don't know about them

Completely agree with all of this.

It's like saying "some people drink instant coffee their whole life, why would you ever want anything else?" - but if they've not properly experienced coffee or hot chocolate made freshly on request, why would they be familiar with what they're missing out on?

 

[Wallsendmag]

eTickets can be added to your device's wallet for easy access
eTickets can be stored as a PDF
eTickets can be shared out to each individual in your group
eTickets can be printed
eTickets just work