Why does TfW operate the Manchester - Cardiff? Should XC run it?

[A S Leib]

Neither ScotRail nor NI Railways run cross-border services apart from to the first station across the border (Glasgow–Dumfries–Carlisle) and in cooperation with IÉ, although that's mostly a consequence of where the railways and borders are. Things might be different if lines such as the one from Melrose to Hexham had survived.

If anything, the odd one out for Wales-England services is currently Bristol as the only one without TfW.

 

[Envoy]

As a user of this route fairly frequently, while its TOC makes sense, it is incredibly annoying hearing Welsh announcements before English, especially when the train is still in England! If you were a slower, less able passenger, unfamiliar with the route, you could end up missing your stop, as the English "this is X" announcement sometimes comes after the train has already left the station, if the guard is quick!

Going slightly off topic, this problem is especially prominent on the Chester to Crewe, Shrewsbury to Crewe, and Chester to Liverpool routes, all operated by TfW entirely in England, with Welsh announcements first.

The majority (82%) non Welsh speaking population of Wales are also fed up with the announcements being made in Welsh first. Nobody asked them if they wanted to change their language to Welsh.

 

[TUC]

Neither ScotRail nor NI Railways run cross-border services apart from to the first station across the border (Glasgow–Dumfries–Carlisle) and in cooperation with IÉ, although that's mostly a consequence of where the railways and borders are. Things might be different if lines such as the one from Melrose to Hexham had survived.

If anything, the odd one out for Wales-England services is currently Bristol as the only one without TfW.

But equally, why shouldn't they run cross-border services? One could equally ask why does London and North Eastern Railway run into Scotland? There seems to be a literalism behind the question which does not fit with the real world of businesses, branding and marketing

 

[A S Leib]

One could equally ask why does London and North Eastern Railway run into Scotland?

Because London–Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness are long enough routes that relatively few people would drive and which have strong air links, and because realistically somebody has to run direct services at least as far as Edinburgh.

 

[m0ffy]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

 

[Harpo]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

The Welsh themselves find it annoying. Living in Cardiff, Welsh is rarely heard away from the railway stations and the dogma of dual language signage, utility bills etc. is just wasteful.

 

[John R]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

Yes, because the vast majority of people living in Wales have English as their primary language, and whilst some will put on a census form that they can read or speak Welsh, it won't be fluent, and it will be vanishingly rare that they actually use it. (I'll admit that in some areas of West and North Wales that much more Welsh is spoken, but even then I very much doubt it would be the majority language.)

And given that announcements on the railway network are all about giving information clearly and quickly, it would make more sense to have English first, especially in South East Wales.

 

[Envoy]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

Welsh is only spoken by around 18% of the population of Wales and it should be noted that they can also speak English.

Note that under orders from the Welsh Government, TFW issue maps with Welsh first and bold and English place names often barely legible. This is nothing but discrimination against the English only speaking majority as well as travellers from elsewhere.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

Always seems bizarre on a TfW train operating the Liverpool Lime Street to Chester 'shuttle' service which, unless mistaken, doesn't even cross the border into Wales, although it does, of course, provide onward connections into "home" territory.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

But it's not a "Welsh" company.
Wales & Borders TOC is there to serve both sides of the border.
It just happens to be based in Cardiff and controlled by the Welsh government (but funded largely from Westminster).
It has to serve its routes in England just as much as those in Wales.
It's main long-distance fleet (197s) is based in Chester, with Shrewsbury and (to a lesser extent) Hereford being key nodes in the TfW network.

Where it gets tricky is when the Marches politicians have no direct say in rail policy made in Cardiff Bay.
The ("English") DfT is supposed to represent them, and specify services in England.

 

[185]

They sent yet another two coach train on a Saturday lunchtime, full and dangerously standing for almost two hours Shrewsbury-Manchester. Passed me at Stockport, horrifically full, with TfW control insisting this was due to disruption - there's disruption every day. I look back at those who made excuses for them...

'they'll only be using the 2-car sets on the Cambrian'
'the manchesters will be all 3-car or locos'
'they'll all be running in multiple by 2023'

We knew this would continue, and perhaps it's time another operator takes over this route. TfW are just not competent or trustworthy, the years of mess on Wrexham-Bidston should have seen that route given to someone else, but nothing was done.

 

[JonathanH]

We knew this would continue, and perhaps it's time another operator takes over this route.

Given the same amount of rolling stock, how would another operator ensure that single 2-car units aren't used?

 

[Dai Corner]

I find this a very odd question. Why should a Wales operator be limited to only running within their own country and no cross-border services?

The argument is that TOCs should be accountable to the relevant politicians. TfW is only accountable to Welsh politicians so passengers on their services in England have no representation. The remedy would be to bring all cross border services under the UK Government but that would open a whole new can of worms.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Welsh is only spoken by around 18% of the population of Wales and it should be noted that they can also speak English.

Note that under orders from the Welsh Government, TFW issue maps with Welsh first and bold and English place names often barely legible. This is nothing but discrimination against the English only speaking majority as well as travellers from elsewhere.

I don't have a problem with Welsh place names - after all it would be like complaining about the Germans insisting on calling Cologne, Köln.

There should be a quid pro quo however - English place names should be, err, in English so no Amwythig (Shrewsbury) or Manceinion (Manchester) appearing in primary position in timetables, on trains etc. The international standard is to use the local name - even the SNCF shows London rather than Londres at Paris Nord!

 

[Llandudno]

The argument is that TOCs should be accountable to the relevant politicians. TfW is only accountable to Welsh politicians so passengers on their services in England have no representation. The remedy would be to bring all cross border services under the UK Government but that would open a whole new can of worms.

Indeed and look at the state of UK Government operator Northern!

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Bikeman78]

Cardiff to Birmingham was initially shared between Wales & West and Central Trains at privatisation, with the through trains from Nottingham to Cardiff run by Central Trains running alternate hours with Wales & West running Birmingham to Cardiff and West Wales. Later just run by Central Trains.

The stopping pattern was all over the place in the shared era. A few Central trains ran via Worcester. I don't think Wales and West did. It became a lot more uniform when Central ran hourly from Cardiff to Nottingham. On paper they were all booked a class 158 or 170 but class 156 were a daily event and Centro 150s weren't particularly unusual.

 

[TUC]

Because London–Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness are long enough routes that relatively few people would drive and which have strong air links, and because realistically somebody has to run direct services at least as far as Edinburgh.

That is no logic for Scottish and Welsh TOCs not operating cross-border services. If anything, your example would just as much be an argument for Scotrail as for LNER.

 

[Bikeman78]

I find the complaints about announcements quite ridiculous. Are we really complaining that a Welsh company, owned by the Welsh government is using the native language of Wales as its primary language?

I would argue that the Belgian approach makes more sense.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I would argue that the Belgian approach makes more sense.

@Bikeman78. Could you possibly explain / expand on that?

 

[Dai Corner]

Many TOCS operating in England have or have had French, Dutch, Italian, German or Japanese owners but they only use English in England.

 

[chrisjo]

@Bikeman78. Could you possibly explain / expand on that?

Foreign language announcements on Continental European trains?

And then there's Belgium. A few days ago there was a news item about a passenger who made a formal complaint that the contrôleur greeted a compartment of passengers with Goeiemorgen-Bonjour. This was in a Flemish-speaking region, so only Dutch should have been used. SNCB agreed with that, at...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[nwales58]

We are drifting off Manchester-Cardiff ...

I don't have a problem with Welsh place names - after all it would be like complaining about the Germans insisting on calling Cologne, Köln.

There should be a quid pro quo however - English place names should be, err, in English so no Amwythig (Shrewsbury) or Manceinion (Manchester) appearing in primary position in timetables, on trains etc.

People use Amwythig and Caer. I doubt anyone uses yr Heledd Wen or Eglwys Wen or even can think where they are. Booking on TfW's web site they do not exist even.

I see both sides as I'm english but have lived in majority welsh-speaking areas for nearly 30 years.

Legal position has changed over time. Road signs used to put the majority language for the area first, from 1993 both languages had to be used, from 2016 new signs are welsh-first in the whole country.

The 197s comply with the law in Wales. And probably have no legal basis whatsoever when in England.

A solution to please everyone would have been the first language changing with location, and english-only on england-only services. It's software so very cheap to get right. CAF could not get this wrong in Spain for example.

It's lack of competence or disinterest. For months on end the 197s were wrongly announcing non-stop to the destination ('dim ond') and messing up the next stop/final stop variations, TfW didn't seem to care. Taking the easiest way to comply with the law rather than making it work for all passengers is the cause. Disappointing.

When a 197 leaving Birmingham International announces its 39 stops to Pwllheli in welsh then after a pause in english, I wonder how long before the announcements are changed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When a 197 leaving Birmingham International announces its 39 stops to Pwllheli in welsh then after a pause in english, I wonder how long before the announcements are changed.

Plus all the request stop nonsense, luggage reminders, no smoking and "mind the gap" announcements, not to mention "see it, say it, sorted" in both languages and they never seem to shut up.
There isn't time between Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road before the announcements are cut off, only to start again after Oxford Road.
I can understand full announcements at key points in a journey, but not at every shack en route.
For once, I think Merseyrail is the TOC which has its announcements just about right, and in the right tone.

 

[RailWonderer]

Let’s think about that question.

TfW uses high quality Mark 4 stock, together with a buffet and restaurant service on several of its services. The other services have some better seating at 2+1 that comes without a supplement for standard class passengers.

XC has Voyagers with a trolley that you might see if you are lucky.

Fares, esp booked in advance are very reasonable, including first class fares.

XC fares appear, by my perception, much more expensive.

Frequency of Cardiff to Manchester is exactly the same as Bristol to Manchester, so it’s unlikely XC would offer any benefit there.

So really I can only see downsides to changing the operator to XC.

That's mostly true but many of TfW's Manchester - Cardiff services are full and standing and short formed albeit less delayed than what they were before 197s arrived. I think with all the 197s in service (if they aren't already) the situaiton will improve.

No-one who has ever attempted to use a XC service into or out of Cardiff would think so, they are dreadful.

TfW is often delayed, short formed, full and standing too, although their fares are better and the crowding situation will improve with more 197s.

 

[Meerkat]

I find this a very odd question. Why should a Wales operator be limited to only running within their own country and no cross-border services?

That can be switched round - why shouldn’t an English operator run the cross border service?
Anyone able to interrogate the database and tell us whether the English stations’ passengers are travelling within England or going to Wales - is TfW extracting money out of the English railway as OAS are alleged to do?

 

[Dai Corner]

That can be switched round - why shouldn’t an English operator run the cross border service?
Anyone able to interrogate the database and tell us whether the English stations’ passengers are travelling within England or going to Wales - is TfW extracting money out of the English railway as OAS are alleged to do?

Well, TfW say the Marches is their only profitable line and I doubt if all the profits are earned between Cardiff and Abergavenny. They're keen to operate to Bristol so presumably think that would be profitable for them too. I don't know about north Wales- Manchester, Wrexham- Biston, Shrewsbury-Birmingham or Chester-Liverpool.

 

[Envoy]

That can be switched round - why shouldn’t an English operator run the cross border service?
Anyone able to interrogate the database and tell us whether the English stations’ passengers are travelling within England or going to Wales - is TfW extracting money out of the English railway as OAS are alleged to do?

If somebody books a through ticket from south Wales to anywhere north of Crewe - eg. Cardiff to Carlisle or Glasgow, from natioanlrail.co.uk they get sent through to book with Cross Country Trains - even though they will be on TFW & Avanti Trains. (The TFW website also uses the same Cross Country prices which are so ridiculous that they actually deter rail travel for those who don’t know about splits). When such a booking is made, 12.7% of the cost goes to Cross Country - thus depriving TFW and Avanti of the full amount such a passenger is paying. This is absolutely crazy - a company setting the fare for a route they do not operate, charging high prices to deter customers and depriving the real operators of income.

However, if a passenger were to book the same trip via the Scotrail site, it would work out a split (at Crewe) with the income for the relevant TFW & Avanti sections travelled going to those companies. Goodness knows why TFW and Avanti can’t do the same thing as Scotrail have done? (Note that Scotrail only come up with one split for journeys and some of the other split sites can come up with lower prices by having multiple splits).

Note that Cross Country have one direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service each way on weekdays only. This goes the longer route via York & Newcastle and takes 1 hour longer than using the Marches route with a change at Crewe.

 

[tfw756rider]

When a 197 leaving Birmingham International announces its 39 stops to Pwllheli in welsh then after a pause in english, I wonder how long before the announcements are changed.

The 197s don't announce all the stops when leaving the origin station though (like the 158s do and the 175s did, etc.).

Plus all the request stop nonsense, luggage reminders, no smoking and "mind the gap" announcements, not to mention "see it, say it, sorted" in both languages and they never seem to shut up.

I can't recall the 197s making 61016 announcements.

That's mostly true but many of TfW's Manchester - Cardiff services are full and standing and short formed albeit less delayed than what they were before 197s arrived. I think with all the 197s in service (if they aren't already) the situaiton will improve.

All (56) non-ETCS 197s plus 6 of the 21 ETCS-fitted 197s (for the Cambrian) have been in service on conventionally-signalled routes, so 62. However, I believe a few units are "down", and a fair few are being "nicked" by Ebbw Vale/Maesteg, Cheltenham/Cardiff and Wrexham/Bidston services until the displacement of 231s from the valleys and the reliability fixes to the 230s release said "nicked" 197s.

 

[berneyarms]

That's mostly true but many of TfW's Manchester - Cardiff services are full and standing and short formed albeit less delayed than what they were before 197s arrived. I think with all the 197s in service (if they aren't already) the situaiton will improve.

TfW is often delayed, short formed, full and standing too, although their fares are better and the crowding situation will improve with more 197s.

So why do think XC should do it?

 

[Philip]

I think a good idea would be for TfW to retain the Manchester to South Wales service, but have all of them run non-stop Crewe-Shrewsbury (then Ludlow, Leominster & Hereford). Northern could then introduce a new bi-hourly Manchester Victoria to Shrewsbury service, running in alternate hours from Crewe/Shrewsbury with the TfW shuttle. The Northern would run via Warrington (using Victoria traincrew with 195s initially and eventually bi/tri-modes) and then call at Nantwich, Whitchurch & Wem, with the TfW shuttle continuing to pick up these stations, along with the request stops.