Elstree and Borehamwood->West Hampstead Thameslink ticket issue

[Anonymous7260]

Currently being threatened with a fine for not having an eligible ticket for my train, despite having a paid return leg. I bought an Elstree and Borehamwood->West Hampstead Thameslink return ticket on Trainline, and I assume I mistakenly scanned the Elstree and Borehamwood->West Hampstead Thameslink ticket at West Hampstead, and the revenue protection officer has said there is no record of me getting on at West Hampstead, as the barrier shouldn’t have let me through with the ticket I was scanning, which is why I’ve been threatened with a fine.

I showed that I had a paid return ticket on the trainline app, and both legs of the ticket. First time that I’ve ever run into these issues, so I would like to know what the best strategy for appealing is.

I have already requested CCTV footage of me leaving work 10-15 minutes before I went in to West Hampstead, and should receive this shortly, and I get the impression that I should be able to request CCTV footage of me entering West Hampstead from Thameslink themselves. Is there anything else I should request or need cautious of, as I’m not familiar with this process.

 

[Titfield]

Please upload the correspondence you have received so tailored advice can be given.

 

[John R]

Can you confirm that the scan you believe to be mistaken was at West H T on your return journey?

I don’t believe it is a requirement for a ticket to be scanned at a gateline (where present) for it to be valid, but the lack of a scan can be used to identify fraudulent activity, such as short faring.

But I guess the question is, how did you get through the barrier, assuming you did actually start your return journey at that station? As they say, the gateline would not have opened with the wrong ticket.

 

[gray1404]

I have heard incidences before where people have scanned the wrong portion of a return ticket and the barrier has opened. The inspector is being absolutely ridiculous. The lack of a scan is not an offence nor is it sufficient to warrant any prosecution. You presented a valid ticket on inspection when asked to do so by the inspector and that is all that matters.

 

[JordR]

I get the impression that I should be able to request CCTV footage of me entering West Hampstead from Thameslink themselves.

If you'd like to do this, be quick. CCTV may only be retained for a few weeks. You would need to make a subject access request, the Information Commissioner's Office has some useful advice on how to do that here.

Otherwise, as others have said it would be useful to see any document you were given so the experienced people here can give you the best possible advice. Hide your personal information and any reference numbers.

 

[Anonymous7260]

Please upload the correspondence you have received so tailored advice can be given.

It was a Govia Thameslink Railway witness statement. There inspector suggested filling in the Fail to carry - railcard and season ticket submission form. Is this the way to go from there.

Issued ar Elstree station, where I got off.

Can you confirm that the scan you believe to be mistaken was at West H T on your return journey?

I don’t believe it is a requirement for a ticket to be scanned at a gateline (where present) for it to be valid, but the lack of a scan can be used to identify fraudulent activity, such as short faring.

But I guess the question is, how did you get through the barrier, assuming you did actually start your return journey at that station? As they say, the gateline would not have opened with the wrong ticket.

Yeah that’s what I don’t understand. Both tickets were advance singles, but the barrier at West Hampstead let me through. According to the scanner the inspector used, there was no record of me scanning at a barrier at West Hampstead on either ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==

If you'd like to do this, be quick. CCTV may only be retained for a few weeks. You would need to make a subject access request, the Information Commissioner's Office has some useful advice on how to do that here.

Otherwise, as others have said it would be useful to see any document you were given so the experienced people here can give you the best possible advice. Hide your personal information and any reference numbers.

Thank you, currently looking into requesting CCTV footage from West Hampstead right now.

 

[JordR]

It was a Govia Thameslink Railway witness statement. There inspector suggested filling in the Fail to carry - railcard and season ticket submission form. Is this the way to go from there.

We mean we'd like to see the document itself please. Take a photo of it with your phone, then hide your personal details and any reference numbers and upload it here.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Something doesn't seem right here.

Why would you buy a ticket on Trainline to make a journey between West Hamptead and Elstree & Borehamwood rather than using contactless or oyster?

There inspector suggested filling in the Fail to carry

What did the inspector actually fill in? We really need to see a redacted copy of any paperwork you were given.

Both tickets were advance singles

You cannot buy an Advance single between West Hampstead Thameslink and Elstree & Borehamwood. The only tickets you can purchase between these two stations is an Anytime Day Single or an Anytime Day Return.

Exactly what ticket did you purchase and how much did you pay for it. Was a railcard discount applied and if so which railcard. Do you possess the railcard and is it in date?

How did you get through the ticket barrier at West Hampstead Thameslink without scanning a ticket? Although there is no requirement to scan a ticket at the start of your journey.

Did you make a longer journey using a combination of tickets?

Thank you, currently looking into requesting CCTV footage from West Hampstead right now.

Even if it is available, CCTV is unlikely to assist. It might show you at West Hampstead but it won't show what ticket you used to access the station.

 

[Anonymous7260]

Welcome to the forum!

Something doesn't seem right here.

Why would you buy a ticket on Trainline to make a journey between West Hamptead and Elstree & Borehamwood rather than using contactless or oyster?


What did the inspector actually fill in? We really need to see a redacted copy of any paperwork you were given.


You cannot buy an Advance single between West Hampstead Thameslink and Elstree & Borehamwood. The only tickets you can purchase between these two stations is an Anytime Day Single or an Anytime Day Return.

Exactly what ticket did you purchase and how much did you pay for it. Was a railcard discount applied and if so which railcard. Do you possess the railcard and is it in date?

How did you get through the ticket barrier at West Hampstead Thameslink without scanning a ticket? Although there is no requirement to scan a ticket at the start of your journey.

Did you make a longer journey using a combination of tickets?


Even if it is available, CCTV is unlikely to assist. It might show you at West Hampstead but it won't show what ticket you used to access the station.

So I just buy tickets off trainline in morning before going to work. Mostly for convenience, and I also have a 16-25 railcard so doing it this way worked out same price/slightly cheaper than oyster or contactless.

Sending through a redacted document now in about 15 minutes.

Also my bad, I meant 2x anytime day singles (that’s how it was bought on trainline).

I purchased 2x anytime day singles, and paid £10.15 for these, with the 16-25 railcard discount only applying return leg, as the Elstree->West Hampstead leg was in peak hours. Railcard is in date, does not expire until June 2025, and I showed this to the inspector via the railcard app. I have the ticket barcodes, receipts, and bank statements already saved in case I’ll need it.

I definitely must have scanned a ticket at West Hampstead, the barrier let me through, so not sure how it didn’t show up on the inspector’s scanner. That’s what I don’t understand.

I just made a West Hampstead->Elstree journey, nothing unusual, was only 3 stops.

For the CCTV, the main thing I want to show is that I entered West Hampstead, and the barrier opened. Is this footage something that can be used in the appeals process at all?

Appreciate your help.

 

[John R]

But tapping in and out costs £5.30 peak and £3.70 off peak, even before any railcard deduction. So less than you paid.

And I fail to see how going to the faff of buying online tickets and then presenting them is more convenient than tapping in and out?

So it’s a rather unusual thing to be doing, which will probably heighten the train company’s view that something amiss is going on.

 

[AlterEgo]

The company definitely suspects the OP or short faring but doesn’t have the evidence for it. This is a bizarre ticket to buy for this journey, being less convenient, more expensive and overall just a faff. But it would be good to see the paperwork.

 

[Anonymous7260]

Noted, will use Oyster in the future. Just also that my usual times to go to work/get home are 7-8am and 5-6pm, and due to the journey home being after 10am and having a 16-25 railcard, the fare works out as less, which is why I’ve usually opted to buy individual tickets. But moving forward, will just use Oyster.

 

[John R]

But you are not paying less, even on the return journey. You are paying 4.05, and the contactless/oyster fare is 3.70. If you linked your railcard to your Oyster you would get a third off the 3.70 as well, but even without that contactless is cheaper.

And you are paying 6.10 instead of 5.30 on the morning journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to clarify there’s no absolute requirement to scan an e-ticket. They don’t need “validating”. No case to answer, and you must tell them the facts of the journey in a single sentence in a curt reply if or when they eventually do write.

 

[Anonymous7260]

But you are not paying less, even on the return journey. You are paying 4.05, and the contactless/oyster fare is 3.70. If you linked your railcard to your Oyster you would get a third off the 3.70 as well, but even without that contactless is cheaper.

And you are paying 6.10 instead of 5.30 on the morning journey.

Noted, also I thought there was an evening peak from 4-7pm since it’s in the tfl zones, wouldn’t that cancel it out?

 

[John R]

Noted, also I thought there was an evening peak from 4-7pm since it’s in the tfl zones, wouldn’t that cancel it out?

Ah yes, you are correct on that point. Apologies.

 

[JordR]

What's under the large rectangle in your second image? I think you've hidden too much, I can't see anything in the witness statement that indicates what they think you've actually done...

 

[Anonymous7260]

What's under the large rectangle in your second image? I think you've hidden too much, I can't see anything in the witness statement that indicates what they think you've actually done...

Just my name, DOB and address

 

[JordR]

Oh fair enough! Guess we'll have to see what the letter says, although it'll be generic...

 

[Hadders]

The Witness Statement Report is most bizarre. Hopefully you've still got the e-ticket your purchased via Trainline (the ticket number on its own should be sufficient to give GTR all the details they need). When GTR's letter arrives forum members can assist in drafting a reply which will hopefully make the matter go away.

As for fares going forwards, there are several options. Your current choice of buying traditional tickets is:

Anytime Day Single before 10:00 £6.10 (railcard discount not applicable)
Anytime Day Single after 10:00 £4.05 (railcard discounted)
Daily Total £10.15

If you get an Oyster card (costs £7) you can get your railcard discounted at an Underground station (West Hampstead Undergroiund station would seem to be convenient for you) then you would pay:

Touch-in between 06:30-09:30 or 16:00-19:00 £5.30 (no railcard discount)
Touch in at other times £3.70

If both outward and return journeys were in the peak then the cost would is £10.60 (so more expensive than what @Anonymous7260 currently buys)
If one journey is in the peak and the other off-peak then the cost is £9.00
If both journeys are off-peak (eg touch-in before 06:30) then the cost is £6.40
If both journeys are in the peak then using Oyster for the morning journey and a traditional railcard discounted ticket in the afternoon is £9.35

If using this option I suggest setting up auto-top up on the Oyster card.

An alternative to all of this is to use Thameslink's KeyGo https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-payment-methods/ways-to-pay/keygo
You can add a railcard to this as well

KeyGo should charge the most appropriate fare so if going to work in the morning peak it should charge the Zonal Peak Fare of £5.30
If travelling home when the peak fare applies it should charge the railcard discounted Anytime Day Single fare of £4.05 as it is cheaper than the Zonal Peak Fare.
If you did travel with when off-peak fares applied then it will charge you the railcard discounted Zonal Fare of £3.70 (as that is cheaper than the railcard discounted traditional fare)

For clarity, I've not personally tested this - I've been looking for a local example of where a traditional railcard discounted fare is cheaper than the Zonal Peak Fare and this is a convenient journey where I can test it!

 

[Haywain]

For clarity, I've not personally tested this - I've been looking for a local example of where a traditional railcard discounted fare is cheaper than the Zonal Peak Fare and this is a convenient journey where I can test it!

I have experienced this sort of charging so can confirm that it should work in that way.

 

[Anonymous7260]

Wow thank you for information on the pricing options. I had heard of KeyGo before but will definitely look into it now.

Will just wait for the letter and see what happens. For now I have the e-tickets for today’s journeys, the invoices, and invoices for journeys going back to December in a file, so ready to provide this evidence if it’s ever needed hopefully