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My sisters purchased a train ticket for me, I didn’t realise she had a railcard.
I was stopped by a ticket officer and couldn’t provide a railcard (obviously).
I was then stopped a second time on my journey, this time providing my sisters details as she has the railcard. She has since received a fine and paid it.
I have just received a letter through the post titled; DEBT RECOVERY AND PROSECUTIONS UNIT - Failed to produce a valid Railcard. “
Request for Explanation:
Before Northern Trains Limited proceeds further with its investigations, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it with any accompanying evidence. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. If you were reported for failing to carry your Railcard with you, please provide a copy of the Railcard. Only written mitigation will be accepted to the above address”
They are also threatening court.
Please can I have some tips on how best to respond, obviously I do not want to go to court!
I'm a little bit confused about what happened. If I understand correctly:
You made a journey with a railcard discounted ticket. You did not possess a railcard
What happened the first time your were stopped? Did you give any details? Were you given amy paperwork - if so can you post a redacted copy in this thread
You were stopped a 2nd time and you gave your sisters details
Your sister received a letter (I assume) from Northern and she paid them some money (technically it isn't a fine - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction and I assume she wasn't takem to court?)
What exactly did your sister receive from Northern? Can you post a a redacted copy of this paperwork as well so we can work out what's happened.
Yes she purchased it for me, I didn’t realise she even had a railcard. Only when I was stopped and asked for a rail card did I then realise she has one. They took my details first time round, however failed to provide me a slip which outlined the information they took. ( I only gave my name, address and DOB, which is the same address as my sister).
The second time I was stopped, by someone different, I provided my sisters details. (I was provided with an orange slip, which meant that if I was stopped again I could prove someone has already taken my details). They contacted her, and she paid a penalty for not providing her rail card - assumably she came up in their system hence the nicer letter.
I have received a letter myself, asking for an explanation as to why I couldn’t provide a railcard. (Both letters attached)
I am worried if I explain that I didn’t know she has used a railcard when purchasing my ticket, they may look further into the ticket itself and realise that there is a second offence(?) assigned to it, under another name who did have a railcard (as second time around I provided all of her details).
Or can I just plead innocence as the ticket she emailed to me just said it was an adult ticket, and wasn’t until you scrolled you could see in small print it was infact bought with a railcard.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes she purchased it for me, I didn’t realise she even had a railcard. Only when I was stopped and asked for a rail card did I then realise she has one. They took my details first time round, however failed to provide me a slip which outlined the information they took. ( I only gave my name, address and DOB, which is the same address as my sister).
The second time I was stopped, by someone different, I provided my sisters details. (I was provided with an orange slip, which meant that if I was stopped again I could prove someone has already taken my details). They contacted her, and she paid a penalty for not providing her rail card - assumably she came up in their system hence the nicer letter.
I have received a letter myself, asking for an explanation as to why I couldn’t provide a railcard. (Both letters attached)
I am worried if I explain that I didn’t know she has used a railcard when purchasing my ticket, they may look further into the ticket itself and realise that there is a second offence(?) assigned to it, under another name who did have a railcard (as second time around I provided all of her details).
Or can I just plead innocence as the ticket she emailed to me just said it was an adult ticket, and wasn’t until you scrolled you could see in small print it was infact bought with a railcard.
Also, just want to add that I did offer to purchase a new ticket but they wouldn’t allow it. I obviously apologised but they were adamant on taking my details
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I'm a little bit confused about what happened. If I understand correctly:
You made a journey with a railcard discounted ticket. You did not possess a railcard
What happened the first time your were stopped? Did you give any details? Were you given amy paperwork - if so can you post a redacted copy in this thread
You were stopped a 2nd time and you gave your sisters details
Your sister received a letter (I assume) from Northern and she paid them some money (technically it isn't a fine - only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction and I assume she wasn't takem to court?)
What exactly did your sister receive from Northern? Can you post a a redacted copy of this paperwork as well so we can work out what's happened.
Okay, that you're an adult and she isn't is likely why the letters take a different approach. To be really clear, she wasn't travelling with you?
Northern likely think that you were both travelling and neither of you had a railcard. There are people more expert than me who will be along to advise you soon, but I think the best way to handle this is probably for you to write to Northern, including the reference numbers of both cases, and explain that it was only you travelling, that you gave her details and that you are sorry that you did this and travelled without a railcard.
You can also ask if they are willing to consider an out of court settlement. If they agree to that Northern would likely ask you to pay the full undiscounted fare for your journey (without a reduction for the invalid ticket you held with a railcard discount) and an administration fee that might be £100 to £150. This wouldn't be a fine (although it might feel like one) and wouldn't give you a criminal record. It is probably the realistic best outcome you can hope for from what I understand of your situation.
My sisters purchased a train ticket for me, I didn’t realise she had a railcard.
I was stopped by a ticket officer and couldn’t provide a railcard (obviously).
I was then stopped a second time on my journey, this time providing my sisters details as she has the railcard. She has since received a fine and paid it.
I have just received a letter through the post titled; DEBT RECOVERY AND PROSECUTIONS UNIT - Failed to produce a valid Railcard. “
Request for Explanation:
Before Northern Trains Limited proceeds further with its investigations, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it with any accompanying evidence. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comments, please do so on the reverse. If you were reported for failing to carry your Railcard with you, please provide a copy of the Railcard. Only written mitigation will be accepted to the above address”
They are also threatening court.
Please can I have some tips on how best to respond, obviously I do not want to go to court!
Okay, that you're an adult and she isn't is likely why the letters take a different approach. To be really clear, she wasn't travelling with you?
Northern likely think that you were both travelling and neither of you had a railcard. There are people more expert than me who will be along to advise you soon, but I think the best way to handle this is probably for you to write to Northern, including the reference numbers of both cases, and explain that it was only you travelling, that you gave her details and that you are sorry that you did this and travelled without a railcard.
You can also ask if they are willing to consider an out of court settlement. If they agree to that Northern would likely ask you to pay the full undiscounted fare for your journey (without a reduction for the invalid ticket you held with a railcard discount) and an administration fee that might be £100 to £150. This wouldn't be a fine (although it might feel like one) and wouldn't give you a criminal record. It is probably the realistic best outcome you can hope for from what I understand of your situation.
Yes it was only me travelling.
I did consider that option, but does that cause more questions than answers, as it’ll beg the question - why did I provide her details when I was stoped for a second time? Is that more fraudulent?
I just want to do the right thing, and make clear that it wasnt intentional for me to use her train ticket, which was purchased with a railcard. I worry that mentioning the second letter could wrongly accuse me?
unless you think they would be understanding?
They're going to continue to pursue your sister if neither of you offers any explanation. They ultimately wouldn't be successful as she didn't do anything wrong, but I think you would be better off explaining.
It's likely to have no impact on the outcome other than that they leave her alone sooner. You will still probably be offered an out of court settlement if you show regret and ask for one.
You gave your sisters details instead of yours, giving false details is an offence in itself. Your sister has then paid a penalty, which she really shouldn't have done as she wasn't stopped. But if you try and undo this you then risk being dealt with for giving false details.
As for your letter, I expect Northern will offer you an out of court settlement if you write a short, concise reply mentioning the following points:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Fundamentally, only one offence has been committed but being I think it's going to be tricky to try and unwind the penalty your sister has paid without complicating matters for yourself. Being pragmatic I think it might be best for you to seek an out of court settlement from Northern.
I'm interested int he view of other forum members.
They're going to continue to pursue your sister if neither of you offers any explanation. They ultimately wouldn't be successful as she didn't do anything wrong, but I think you would be better off explaining.
Ah, good catch! So looking at the sister's letter, she may have paid £42.20 unnecessarily (the fare for a journey she didn't make) but the hassle unwinding that may be extensive and do you think would increase the risk that Northern may either not settle with the OP or increase their admin fee to do so if it was raised?
You gave your sisters details instead of yours, giving false details is an offence in itself. Your sister has then paid a penalty, which she really shouldn't have done as she wasn't stopped. But if you try and undo this you then risk being dealt with for giving false details.
As for your letter, I expect Northern will offer you an out of court settlement if you write a short, concise reply mentioning the following points:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Fundamentally, only one offence has been committed but being I think it's going to be tricky to try and unwind the penalty your sister has paid without complicating matters for yourself. Being pragmatic I think it might be best for you to seek an out of court settlement from Northern.
I'm interested int he view of other forum members.
Thank you; this is the response I was going to send. Is it too wordy?
I traveled to Liverpool, my sister was meant to make the journey, but at the last minute, she was unable to go. I stepped in to travel in her place, and she forwarded me the train ticket she had purchased in advance. She made no reference to the fact it had been purchased with a railcard.
At the time, I had no idea that my sister had used a railcard to buy the ticket. She regularly travels by train but had never mentioned owning a railcard, so I had no reason to suspect the ticket had been purchased at a discounted rate. I live in an area where there are no direct train links to my workplace, so public transport is not part of my daily routine.
When my sister sent me the email containing the ticket, there was no clear indication on the first page that it had been purchased with a railcard (I have attached a screenshot for reference). It wasn’t until I was approached by the ticket officer that I was informed the ticket was only valid with a railcard. I was completely shocked and deeply apologetic—I genuinely had no idea it had been purchased at a discounted rate.
If I had known, I would have bought a new ticket myself without hesitation. In fact, I immediately offered to purchase a correct ticket, but I was then informed that tickets could no longer be bought at the time of travel. Since it has been such a long time since I last used the train, I was also unaware of this change in policy.
I want to emphasise that this was a complete misunderstanding, and at no point was it my intention to travel without a valid ticket or defraud Northern Trains Limited. I take full responsibility for the mistake, and I assure you that this was an honest oversight that will never happen again. I am more than willing to pay any penalties necessary, and I sincerely hope you can accept my explanation and not seek prosecution.
Once again, I am truly sorry for this mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read my appeal, and I appreciate your consideration.
I'd remove reference to your sister, it just complicates everything. The issue is you had a railcard discounted ticket but no railcard - just concentrate on that. The fact that your sister purchased the ticket isn't really relevant.
I'd remove reference to your sister, it just complicates everything. The issue is you had a railcard discounted ticket but no railcard - just concentrate on that. The fact that your sister purchased the ticket isn't really relevant.
I recently traveled to Liverpool and unknowingly used a ticket that had been purchased with a railcard discount. At the time of booking, I did not realise that a railcard had been applied, as I do not own one myself and rarely travel by train. I live in an area without direct rail links to my workplace, so public transport is not part of my daily routine.
When I received the ticket via email, there was no clear indication on the first page that it was only valid with a railcard (I have attached a screenshot for reference). It wasn’t until I was approached by the ticket officer that I was made aware of this. I was completely shocked and deeply apologetic—I genuinely had no idea that the ticket was not valid for my journey.
Had I known, I would have purchased the correct ticket without hesitation. In fact, I immediately offered to do so, but I was informed that tickets could no longer be bought at the time of travel. Since it had been a long time since I last used the train, I was also unaware of this policy change.
I want to emphasise that this was a complete misunderstanding, and at no point did I intend to travel without a valid ticket or defraud Northern Trains Limited. I take full responsibility for the mistake and assure you that this was an honest oversight that will not happen again. I am more than willing to pay any necessary penalties and sincerely hope you will consider my explanation without seeking prosecution.
Once again, I truly apologise for this mistake. Thank you for taking the time to read my appeal, and I appreciate your consideration.
I traveled to Liverpool, my sister was meant to make the journey, but at the last minute, she was unable to go. I stepped in to travel in her place, and she forwarded me the train ticket she had purchased in advance.
Is this actually true? I ask because it's the first time you've mentioned it and train companies are used to hearing every story in the book. Even if it is true it is unlikely to change the outcome so I would consider removing.
When my sister sent me the email containing the ticket, there was no clear indication on the first page that it had been purchased with a railcard (I have attached a screenshot for reference).
There's been no change in policy. You might have been let off or shown some discretion before but the law in this area was last changed in 2005. I would remove.
Unfortunately it sounds like Northern has a slam dunk case that you commited a minor crime. The crime is strict liability, which means whether you intended to or accidentally committed it is irrelevant. They will win if they can establish you had an invalid ticket on a train and the magistrates' court will not be interested in why.
This is not an appeal. I'd recommend you follow Hadders' advice above and ask for an out ot court settlement, Northern are likely to agree. It'll cost you a lot (they will likely ask for the £42.20 fare plus another £100 to 150) but I think it's the only realistic way you're going to come out of this without a minor criminal record.
The big complication is the ticket appears to have been inspected twice and two penalties raised because first inspector failed to issue a zero excess receipt (instead getting follow up letter sent)
I am not aware there is any bylaw that says that once caught, and agreed a remedy (paying settlement) you can be followed up again for same infringement on same ticket (known as double jeopardy in legal speak).
I am thinking as part of you letter of apology, requesting a settlement etc you add that £x was already requested and settled under ref Z for same ticket, and appear to have raised second request under a separate reference.
My gut feeling is add a line saying the two inspectors asked different questions, first asked for your name as the traveler, the second asked who bought the ticket (your sister who didn't travel) which could be cause of confusion over names and the two separate references.
I think it is morally wrong that Northern would continue due to failure of one of their staff to correctly issue the receipt that could be offered to second ticket inspector. But unfortunately morals do not count for much.
I wonder what other forum members think, but I would be inclined to start your letter with :
ref X (already paid)
ref Y (follow up letter requesting details)
my thinking is a clerk might check first reference, see it is settled then drop the follow up, but I don't know, because it could all go wrong and open up a can of worms muddle which becomes harder to untangle.
.
Is this actually true? I ask because it's the first time you've mentioned it and train companies are used to hearing every story in the book. Even if it is true it is unlikely to change the outcome so I would consider removing.
It might feel unfair, but this doesn't matter. It's your responsibility to travel on a valid ticket. I would remove.
There's been no change in policy. You might have been let off or shown some discretion before but the law in this area was last changed in 2005. I would remove.
Unfortunately it sounds like Northern has a slam dunk case that you commited a minor crime. The crime is strict liability, which means whether you intended to or accidentally committed it is irrelevant. They will win if they can establish you had an invalid ticket on a train and the magistrates' court will not be interested in why.
This is not an appeal. I'd recommend you follow Hadders' advice above and ask for an out ot court settlement, Northern are likely to agree. It'll cost you a lot (they will likely ask for the £42.20 fare plus another £100 to 150) but I think it's the only realistic way you're going to come out of this without a minor criminal record.
Yes the ticket was purchased under her account on Trainline and she forwarded me the email. It made sense at the time for me to have the ticket she couldn’t use, as I normally would just purchase my own ticket under my own account.
This is a more concise response, would you agree it meets Hadders points, or is there something i should add/ remove?
“I am writing to sincerely apologise for the mistake regarding my train ticket. I genuinely did not realise that the ticket had been purchased with a railcard discount, and I deeply regret the oversight.
I am keen to resolve this matter without the need for court action and would like to request an out-of-court settlement. I am more than willing to pay the outstanding fare, along with any administrative costs incurred by the train company in handling this case.
This incident has been a valuable learning experience, and I now understand the importance of thoroughly checking my ticket details before travelling. I assure you that this will not happen again.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your response.”
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The big complication is the ticket appears to have been inspected twice and two penalties raised because first inspector failed to issue a zero excess receipt (instead getting follow up letter sent)
I am not aware there is any bylaw that says that once caught, and agreed a remedy (paying settlement) you can be followed up again for same infringement on same ticket (known as double jeopardy in legal speak).
I am thinking as part of you letter of apology, requesting a settlement etc you add that £x was already requested and settled under ref Z for same ticket, and appear to have raised second request under a separate reference.
My gut feeling is add a line saying the two inspectors asked different questions, first asked for your name as the traveler, the second asked who bought the ticket (your sister who didn't travel) which could be cause of confusion over names and the two separate references.
I think it is morally wrong that Northern would continue due to failure of one of their staff to correctly issue the receipt that could be offered to second ticket inspector. But unfortunately morals do not count for much.
Thank you for your input, so do you think that this response is better?
“I am writing to sincerely explain the situation regarding my journey from Oxenholme to Liverpool Lime Street on 4th December 2024.
I traveled to Liverpool using a ticket that I did not realise had been purchased with a railcard discount. At the time of travel, I had no idea that a railcard had been used, as I do not own one myself and rarely use public transport. I live in an area where there are no direct train links to my workplace, so train travel is not part of my daily routine.
When I received the ticket via email, there was no clear indication on the first page that it was only valid with a railcard, I understand the grave oversight on my behalf. It was only when I was approached by the ticket officer that I was made aware of this. I was completely shocked and deeply apologetic I genuinely did not know the ticket was not valid for my journey.
Had I known, I would have purchased a new ticket without hesitation. In fact, I immediately offered to do so, but I was informed that tickets could no longer be bought at the time of travel. Additionally, I have already settled a payment of £42.20 under reference (xxxx) for the same ticket.
I also want to highlight some inconsistencies that may have contributed to confusion. Two different inspectors spoke to me, each asking different questions. The first inspector asked for my name and details, while the second inquired about who purchased the ticket, which was my sister. I believe this discrepancy may have caused additional misunderstanding. Furthermore, the first inspector did not issue me with a zero-excess receipt, which I understand should have been provided.
I sincerely regret this mistake and assure you it was an honest oversight. I would be grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without court action and am willing to pay any outstanding fare or administrative costs. This experience has taught me the importance of carefully checking ticket details before travelling, and I will ensure this does not happen again.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your response.”
The big complication is the ticket appears to have been inspected twice and two penalties raised because first inspector failed to issue a zero excess receipt (instead getting follow up letter sent)
The further complication is that at the first inspection false details were given and a penalty paid by the person whose false details were given (the sister).
So while I agree that two penalties shouldn’t be given for one offence the issue is how do you unwind this without admitting that false details were given…..
First interaction, when I provided my details was when the trains changed over on a platform. The second interaction was after I got on the second train, where I then provided my sisters details.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The further complication is that at the first inspection false details were given and a penalty paid by the person whose false details were given (the sister).
So while I agree that two penalties shouldn’t be given for one offence the issue is how do you unwind this without admitting that false details were given…..
So do you think I go with the first response (below) and just explain I’m sorry etc? Don’t mention my sister or the second letter, and penalty (which has been paid).
If you feel this response is the better approach where less questions will be asked, is there anything I should add?
The response;
“I am writing to sincerely apologise for the mistake regarding my train ticket. I genuinely did not realise that the ticket had been purchased with a railcard discount, and I deeply regret the oversight.
I am keen to resolve this matter without the need for court action and would like to request an out-of-court settlement. I am more than willing to pay the outstanding fare, along with any administrative costs incurred by the train company in handling this case.
This incident has been a valuable learning experience, and I now understand the importance of thoroughly checking my ticket details before travelling. I assure you that this will not happen again.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your response.”
So do you think I go with the first response (below) and just explain I’m sorry etc? Don’t mention my sister or the second letter, and penalty (which has been paid).
It’s the truth. Hence the first letter being addressed to me, and the second to her. I’m not lying, I just want to ensure that I don’t go to court, and just have to pay a out of court settlement.
It’s the truth. Hence the first letter being addressed to me, and the second to her. I’m not lying, I just want to ensure that I don’t go to court, and just have to pay a out of court settlement.
People are asking you this because it's unlikely. Your sister can buy a ticket for anybody she wants and put any railcard discount on it she wants without doing anything wrong, it's only an issue if someone tries to travel on that ticket with a railcard they don't hold. In any case, I think you just don't mention it in your letter and you should be fine.
The second is addressed to her (or rather her parent or guardian!) because you gave her details, but that doesn't mean they asked for her details.
There's no point haggling over this but an inspector wouldn't ask for the purchaser's details; they're irrelevant. They're dealing with you because you're the one that is committing the offence. That's why the letter addressed to the parent or guardian of your sister (which you have, I assume, intercepted and opened) says that they believe she was the one who was stopped. It's got nothing to do with "who purchased the ticket". I wouldn't bother trying to address this in the letter.
The reason that one letter is "nicer" than the other is because you are an adult and your sister is a child.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
