Class 701 SWR introduction delays: what should happen now?

[57746]

Moderator note: Split from

Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

Given how they can get 6 units out fairly regularly what is preventing other units from being ready for service? Going by these posts from early January it seems like SWR haven't done the final 'entry into service' mods. Yes - Alstom isn’t responsible for the final round of ”entry into...

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Three months to go until The DFT fully nationalise SWR and the ongoing TFL transition for certain suburban services.

Hopefully there are plans afoot for the complete stripping of each 701 coach to be be thoroughly examined as to all the faults and the possibility of structural defects/water ingress.

The investment in time and manpower would be wise, longer term, to check for liability relating to overall build issues sustained during the Covid "Breakdown Period".

An older team with decent experience should given eyeballs at somewhere like Wimbledon.

,First Group should bite the bullet with Alstom, and let this be undertaken post haste to prevent there reputation being further trashed beyond realistic comeback.

We are at the stage now where change is needed big time, If the overall engineering director doesn't undertake this, then his fate is now sealed.

 

[Clarence Yard]

He’s not making those kind of decisions. That will be someone at DfT who authorises that kind of thing.

 

[RichSwitch]

Hopefully there are plans afoot for the complete stripping of each 701 coach to be be thoroughly examined as to all the faults.

That won’t do much if it’s a software problem though. That would require another software company eyeballing the source code. The contract between Alstom and the contractor might not have specified that. In which case that’s a big mistake! Always ensure you get a copy of the source

As earlier mentioned by The Right Honourable Big Jumby74 an older team with decent experience should given eyeballs at somewhere like Wimbledon

That will only do so much though. If the wiring is poor that requires lots of panel stripping.

First Group should bite the bullet with Alstom and let this be undertaken post haste to prevent there reputation being further trashed beyond realistic comeback,

It’s probably already been done. Or if it hasn’t it should have been by now. God knows they’ve had long enough!

We are at the stage now where change is needed big time,

Agreed. Preferably split SWR 3 ways and subsume the bits into Southern, GWR. and TfL. If the Elizabeth line can go to Reading, TfL can go to Kingston.

 

[43096]

Agreed. Preferably split SWR 3 ways and subsume the bits into Southern, GWR. and TfL. If the Elizabeth line can go to Reading, TfL can go to Kingston.

Just no. The South Western operation is perfectly capable of being operated reliably. It just needs proper management - Stagecoach understood that (after the initial problems); FirstGroup don't and have never learned.

 

[SWT_USER]

He’s not making those kind of decisions. That will be someone at DfT who authorises that kind of thing.

How much of the 701 debacle would you say is SWR's fault as opposed to DfT fault? And do you think anything will change quickly once SWR are no longer involved to paint it as a quick win?

 

[ScottGallagher]

3 Months to go until The DFT fully nationalise SWR and the ongoing TFL transition for certain suburban services. Hopefully there are plans afoot for the complete stripping of each 701 coach to be be thoroughly examined as to all the faults and the possibility of structural defects/water ingress. The investment in time and man power would be wise longer term to check for liability relating to overall build issues sustained during the Covid "Breakdown Period". As earlier mentioned by The Right Honourable Big Jumby74 an older team with decent experience should given eyeballs at somewhere like Wimbledon, First Group should bite the bullet with Alstom and let this be undertaken post haste to prevent there reputation being further trashed beyond realistic comeback, We are at the stage now where change is needed big time, If the overall engineering director doesn't the confidence or "Balls" to undertake this then his fate is now sealed (probably gardening leave as spring is in the air)

Is there now talk of TFL taking over SWR suburban then ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there now talk of TFL taking over SWR suburban then ?

No.

 

[Helvellyn]

How much of the 701 debacle would you say is SWR's fault as opposed to DfT fault? And do you think anything will change quickly once SWR are no longer involved to paint it as a quick win?

If DfT hadn't made very particular requirements for standing space in the franchise requirements for the 2017 bids there's a high chance the 701s wouldn't have even been ordered. The 30 5-car 707s had been ordered by Stagecoach only a couple of years prior for the 10-car Windsor Line capacity improvements were made non-compliant for the 2017 bid by those standing space requirements. Without those an order for 60 10-car 707s could have been made. It wouldn't have been overly difficult to retrofit toilets to the 5-car units either.

(458s back to 4-cars for the Portsmouth Line might also have been a viable plan in place of the 442s if 707s could have been ordered, which would have likely had a much earlier service entry date.)

 

[Clarence Yard]

How much of the 701 debacle would you say is SWR's fault as opposed to DfT fault? And do you think anything will change quickly once SWR are no longer involved to paint it as a quick win?

It started with the franchise spec. and the wish of the DfT to introduce, by stealth, DOO onto SWR. Add in some Derby based issues with the trains themselves and you quickly get into a perfect storm.

COVID adds another dimension, which affected the Train Crew position even more. The DfT kept a tight rein on the finances and resources, both for stock and staff and the end crew state and who worked what was always subject to DfT policy changes.

The suburban crews, quite rightly, view these units with some suspicion. DOO will happen eventually but it seems like a long way away at present.

Like any NRC TOC, the management are there to do the DfT’s bidding. They don’t make policy decisions on their own and all important financial and contractual decisions have to go through the DfT. People compare SWR management to SWT management but the DfT dimension was completely different in SWT days. SWT, like other franchise holders, was left alone to do its job.

Bringing the management “in house” should release some funds which could be used by the DfT to improve matters but some hard decisions need to be made now to get the 701 units in before the 455 units finally fall apart.

 

[lewisf]

What I don’t understand is that every other Aventra fleet is in squadron service, and yet it’s just new issue after new issue with the 701s. First it was the cabs, then it was the windscreen wipers, now it’s the guard panels. I know I’ve definitely missed something from this list.

I know there’s been software issues but that didn’t stop TfL, WMR and GA from rolling out their Aventra fleets.

Are the 701s actually cursed or is there something else going on?

 

[Mainsideman]

It started with the franchise spec. and the wish of the DfT to introduce, by stealth, DOO onto SWR. Add in some Derby based issues with the trains themselves and you quickly get into a perfect storm.

COVID adds another dimension, which affected the Train Crew position even more. The DfT kept a tight rein on the finances and resources, both for stock and staff and the end crew state and who worked what was always subject to DfT policy changes.

The suburban crews, quite rightly, view these units with some suspicion. DOO will happen eventually but it seems like a long way away at present.

Like any NRC TOC, the management are there to do the DfT’s bidding. They don’t make policy decisions on their own and all important financial and contractual decisions have to go through the DfT. People compare SWR management to SWT management but the DfT dimension was completely different in SWT days. SWT, like other franchise holders, was left alone to do its job.

Bringing the management “in house” should release some funds which could be used by the DfT to improve matters but some hard decisions need to be made now to get the 701 units in before the 455 units finally fall apart.

I would say it seems like doo is further away then ever, especially with the Current labour government. Funny really as if the current setup was proposed to begin with the trains would be in service by now.

 

[57746]

I was interested to see my original post be moved into the speculative discussion section, But there needs to be an open reality into the situation. As a mere observer from the outside following from what has been previously stated elsewhere I am holly alarmed that such as position has been reached concerning the introduction of these units. This is not only by the builders Alstom, but the Dft's actions, SWR's barely functioning Management akin to a Zombie Parliamentary state, Elements of Union behaviour (and yes they do have relevant points) and the defence of the industry as a whole. The more I read from learned respected people here the more alarmed I become. Also to address the idea that ALL suburban SWR will become Tfl - No, elements will be hived off ala Elizabeth line and certain lines will be kept by any incumbent of sorts. The introduction of Contactless in various areas (not just SWR) goes a long way to address long standing problems and right them ready for any adjustment. Of course we know certain Civil Servants will always oppose anything - Political or not - so denials as such will come forever, Yes SWT was run under a different basis, granted. The nature of the whole beast of changing.. rapidly! The new reality will follow soon and concurrent cocktail mixture is the warning to some to heed this quickly unless they want to be swept away with the tide.

 

[RichSwitch]

Just no. The South Western operation is perfectly capable of being operated reliably. It just needs proper management - Stagecoach understood that (after the initial problems); FirstGroup don't and have never learned.

Why not? DfT will be looking to save money. That can only mean reducing the number of operators, which will be achieved by mergers as GBR forms.

I don’t agree that SWR is capable of being operated properly. It’s not fit for purpose and hasn’t been since Day One of its operation.

Look at the first few years of SWR and look at Avanti currently. It can’t be just a coincidence that First operate both.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2025 ==

What I don’t understand is that every other Aventra fleet is in squadron service, and yet it’s just new issue after new issue with the 701s. First it was the cabs, then it was the windscreen wipers, now it’s the guard panels. I know I’ve definitely missed something from this list.

I know there’s been software issues but that didn’t stop TfL, WMR and GA from rolling out their Aventra fleets.

Are the 701s actually cursed or is there something else going on?

There’s more to it, as you suggest.

The software issues I cannot answer. I can only think that the systems aren’t talking to the control system as they should (are they different to other Aventras, I don’t know). Any software programmer will tell you that all software is “buggy”. The more complex the software, the buggier it is. Programmers miss ; or misalign } or ) for example.

 

[43066]

I would say it seems like doo is further away then ever, especially with the Current labour government. Funny really as if the current setup was proposed to begin with the trains would be in service by now.

Indeed. And would have been for several years.

 

[Thirteen]

It's daft to suggest the 701s should be withdrawn and stripped down.

 

[43096]

I don’t agree that SWR is capable of being operated properly. It’s not fit for purpose and hasn’t been since Day One of its operation.

Stagecoach operated it very competently before the current shower took over, so it can be done.

Look at the first few years of SWR and look at Avanti currently. It can’t be just a coincidence that First operate both.

You just proved my point!

 

[Kite159]

If DfT hadn't made very particular requirements for standing space in the franchise requirements for the 2017 bids there's a high chance the 701s wouldn't have even been ordered. The 30 5-car 707s had been ordered by Stagecoach only a couple of years prior for the 10-car Windsor Line capacity improvements were made non-compliant for the 2017 bid by those standing space requirements. Without those an order for 60 10-car 707s could have been made. It wouldn't have been overly difficult to retrofit toilets to the 5-car units either.

(458s back to 4-cars for the Portsmouth Line might also have been a viable plan in place of the 442s if 707s could have been ordered, which would have likely had a much earlier service entry date.)

Agreed, had things been different and the 707s were compliant having more of the same would have been easier. Even if they went down the route of ordering 10 coach units similar to the 700s. Something which worked off the shelf so to speak.

The benefits of hindsight and all that.

 

[cactustwirly]

Stagecoach operated it very competently before the current shower took over, so it can be done.

You just proved my point!

Stagecoach had a completely different franchise with no government intervention.

Whereas First had a contract with different rolling stock specifications and a lot more DfT intervention, plus COVID and a woeful Quality Control on the 701s. Stagecoach would have had the same issues most likely

Stagecoach were pretty poor operating East Midlands Trains and also had to famously hand back VTEC because they messed that up

 

[JonathanH]

I would say it seems like doo is further away then ever, especially with the Current labour government.

The current Labour government want the railway to cost less.

Even if they went down the route of ordering 10 coach units similar to the 700s.

Many of the same issues would apply as they do to the 701s if those 10 coach units were designed for driver only operation. It seems that the guards need a safe location from which to dispatch from in all circumstances and that doesn't exist on 10 coach units. Clearly, a fleet of five coach 707s would be in service by now.

I reckon the DfT really need to bite the bullet now and send the 701s, with some reformations, over to Southeastern for Networker replacement where the issues with acceptable form of operation won't apply, then work out what alternative fleet of trains can be built quickly for SWR that will be deemed acceptable.

Does anyone really believe that the 701s will enter squadron service with SWR?

 

[43096]

Stagecoach were pretty poor operating East Midlands Trains

That’s not my experience of them.

and also had to famously hand back VTEC because they messed that up

To replay your point, anyone would have failed with VTEC - the DfT expectations of financial premium were completely unrealistic.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The franchises that were tendered immediately pre-COVID were completely different to the ones previously in that there was less commercial and operational freedom to come up with what you want. Comparing Virgin to Avanti or SWR to SWT is facile because they are completely different propositions.

I actually do think the 701 fleet is going to be introduced onto SWR in full but there may be some unrest on the way.

 

[cactustwirly]

That’s not my experience of them.

To replay your point, anyone would have failed with VTEC - the DfT expectations of financial premium were completely unrealistic.

It was for me, cut everything to the bone. Tatty trains and expensive fares.

No catering on trains at weekends, no first class lounges at weekends either

 

[lewisf]

I actually do think the 701 fleet is going to be introduced onto SWR in full but there may be some unrest on the way.

Of course they will. Anyone claiming they won’t is being facetious (myself included!)

It’s just that at this stage I refuse to believe there’s anything wrong with the units themselves, seeing as every other Aventra fleet was introduced without major issues.

It seems the only thing stopping further rollout is SWR management and staff failing to come to any agreement.

 

[ScottGallagher]

They must be almost ready to prep for transfer to OLR , is it still a 3 month period?

 

[Clarence Yard]

There’s not so much to do these days when a TOC transfers.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Big Jumby74 an older team with decent experience should given eyeballs at somewhere like Wimbledon

MODS: I apologise but need to mention the following;

Noted this post the other day in passing, but lost it - see it's been moved.
Not sure how to take the 'RH' thing, that does not sit well with me, so please reframe. Thank you.

As for the quote here, I would never, and have never (to my knowledge) suggested any such thing. Whilst I can comment on certain matters it is not my place to make such suggestions. I am long out of the industry, and have too much respect the people doing the work, many of whom are likely still those from my time. Despite many old hands having also left over time, which inevitably will cause a loss of experience, there were, even in my later years, many new faces who demonstrated a very keen awareness of the business at hand. Experience within any profession will always be a series of highs and lows as people come to retire, many of whom may have joined at similar times.
I can only think, (and hope) it is just a case that something I may have written has been misinterpreted, or I have not been clear/precise enough, which I accept can happen.

The one thing I do recall is commenting that the industry 'needs to get its act together' (or some such remark), born perhaps more out of frustration for those same people as much as anything else. I am only too well aware of how continuingly changing goal posts in such projects can damage one's health (and I do not say that lightly).

The one thing I do think is lacking, is a degree of openness from the industry/DfT, which if they want to put a stop to all the miss informed theories that tend to circulate with a project such as this, then perhaps they should involve/invite the railway media more than they seemingly do (my impression), so the wider audience can be given a better (single version) of the underlying issues?

Thank you.

 

[ScottGallagher]

There’s not so much to do these days when a TOC transfers.

That's good, I remember there were issues when data access wasn't available until.the last 3 months such as staffing levels etc. Certainly happened between GTR and FIrst Capital Connect.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

If Windsor and shepperton are fully compatible why not at least get both these routes fully converted

 

[OneTrackMinded]

If Windsor and shepperton are fully compatible why not at least get both these routes fully converted

There’s no driver training agreed at the moment

 

[Meerkat]

There’s no driver training agreed at the moment

As in they are working on it or talks have stopped?