Farage as PM? Could a Trump-style takeover happen in UK?

[dcbwhaley]

I would also stress one thing: the idea that there's a "UK Cultural Identity" is hilarious to me as a Scot

And to me a West Yorkshireman

 

[Cloud Strife]

I don't like the phrase UK national identity, I prefer British, but I don't find the idea of a rigid binary divide between Scots and the rest at all 'hilarious'. Maybe you have spending too much time looking at the thistle.

It is hilarious because anyone who grew up in Scotland can see that there are some pretty major cultural differences. It's not only the different legal and educational system, where we are quite puzzled by the English obsession with rules and detentions, but also a rather different perspective of the world.

One of the things that actually makes the UK quite an interesting place is just how culturally diverse it is and how it functions reasonably well despite that.

 

[Bald Rick]

and educational system, where we are quite puzzled by the English obsession with rules and detentions

and Welsh!

 

[Tetchytyke]

While there were some cases where people from non-white backgrounds were involved in grooming, it certainly does not apply to everyone from those communities and we should avoid tarring everyone with the same brush because of the actions of a few ban 'uns.

It's fascinating how some stories get more traction than others with the far right.

Leigh McMillan was a senior member of the English Defence League, yelling to all and sundry about how sexually abusing children was wrong. All the while he "groomed his 10-year-old victim with cigarettes and drugs before subjecting her to a “spiral of sexual abuse”". He abused her 100 times, including on her mother's bed.

EDL 'senior member' jailed for sexual abuse of 10-year-old girl

Far-right supporter gets 17 years in prison for grooming and assaulting victim

www.independent.co.uk

A “senior member” of the far-right English Defence League has been jailed for sexually abusing a schoolgirl dozens of times.

Leigh McMillan, 46, groomed his 10-year-old victim with cigarettes and drugs before subjecting her to a “spiral of sexual abuse” during the mid-1990s, jurors at the Old Bailey heard.

McMillan attacked the girl as she lay on her mother's bed and warned: “You mustn't tell your mum - she'd be really upset.”

He assaulted the youngster around 100 times over a five-year period, the court was told.

Prosecutor Jane Carpenter told jurors the girl “felt as if every day was Groundhog Day” and described her own ordeal as a “spiral of abuse”.

In a statement provided to the court, the girl described how she “had not had control” of her own life.

McMillan was arrested in September 2016 and convicted of three counts of indecent assault, two of indecency with a child and one of attempted rape following trial last month.

From a Google search, the only newspaper that carried a report of this was The Independent.

Weird, isn't it?

 

[jon0844]

Nigel was ranting over and over about those groomers from Glasgow recently. Oh, wait, no he wasn't.

 

[oldman]

One of the things that actually makes the UK quite an interesting place is just how culturally diverse it is and how it functions reasonably well despite that.

Britain functions well because these divisions between Scottish, English and Welsh do not actually exist to anything like the extent you claim, and many people are quite content to be British (on its own or in conjunction with another identity).

You said 'we [Scots] have little in common with the Welsh'. Do you really believe that? How do you define 'a Scot' in the modern multicultural world?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Britain functions well because these divisions between Scottish, English and Welsh do not actually exist to anything like the extent you claim, and many people are quite content to be British (on its own or in conjunction with another identity).

Actually, the census data shows that only around 25-30% of people in Scotland identify as British in some way. The majority identify as only Scottish, and only around 10% at the most identify as British and not Scottish. There is nowhere near the same level of "Britishness" in Scotland as in England, as there are quite significant cultural differences that are reinforced through education. For instance, we learn very little about England before the Stuarts, except as a foreign power intent on annexing Scotland.

You said 'we [Scots] have little in common with the Welsh'. Do you really believe that? How do you define 'a Scot' in the modern multicultural world?

A Scot is someone who lives in Scotland and identifies with the country. We know very little about the Welsh, the contacts between the two countries are quite weak, and most Scots would struggle to even name the Welsh national anthem or a beer from Wales.

It's not a bad thing, it's just a sign that the UK is a very diverse place and that Scotland has its own, distinct culture that isn't necessarily shared with elsewhere. If anything, there are stronger cultural links between Northern Ireland and Scotland than between Scotland and Wales.

Leigh McMillan was a senior member of the English Defence League, yelling to all and sundry about how sexually abusing children was wrong. All the while he "groomed his 10-year-old victim with cigarettes and drugs before subjecting her to a “spiral of sexual abuse”". He abused her 100 times, including on her mother's bed.

A lot of them are very unsavoury characters beneath it all. Richard Price is another one, a good mate of "Tommy" and a convicted paedophile.

 

[muz379]

Civil Service Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Expenditure Guidance

www.gov.uk

£100k p/a +

Job Advert

www.jobs.nhs.uk

£50 k p/a

Vacancies

www.gmmh.nhs.uk

You know these jobs are basically about making sure that the services work for everyone in the communities they serve right ? Can't see how anyone would think a commissioner of NHS Mental health services for a large diverse area like Greater Manchester shouldn't be keeping check on it's accessibility to all communities accross the conurbation , in fact it has a statutory duty to do just that .

You know one of the findings of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority review into the Rochdale Grooming gangs concluded that one issue which hampered justice being served earlier was that the victims weren't believed by the police or CPS when they came forward because of perceptions about them based on their backgrounds , some of them in care or from poor families . You don't even have to stretch your imagination that far to imagine the kinds of things that middle class CPS lawyers would think about a bunch of girls who have mostly been in the care system for significant proportions of their lives .

This is exactly the type of organisational bias that equity , diversity and inclusion champions work to eliminate and make sure the services they work for aren't leaving people behind like that .

 

[oldman]

We know very little about the Welsh, the contacts between the two countries are quite weak

You seem very confident that you speak for 'us'. What most people know is that people in Wales and their lives are not very different from in other parts of Britain. You emphasise the things that divided people in the past - history, language and so on. I think of the everyday lives that people lead today.

 

[Cowley]

You seem very confident that you speak for 'us'. What most people know is that people in Wales and their lives are not very different from in other parts of Britain. You emphasise the things that divided people in the past - history, language and so on. I think of the everyday lives that people lead today.

I can understand why it’s tempting to get into this, because subjects like these are a part of who we all see ourselves.

However, this is very much off topic for this thread and if it’s worth a separate discussion then please feel free to start one, as we’d be happy to help out with that.

It is a separate topic though.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It would appear the Thursday editions of both the Express and Mail are attacking Trump for his remarks on Ukraine. Farage is looking increasingly isolated.

 

[jon0844]

It's indefensible but get there are Reform supporters still going with Ukraine being the bad guys and the land being spiritually Russian.

I have no idea how they've come to this conclusion other than being told to by the likes of Trump, Farage, Tucker Carlson and others - as well as reading support from Russian bots on X.

I thought they of all people knew a thing or two about sovereignty.

 

[Harpo]

It would appear the Thursday editions of both the Express and Mail are attacking Trump for his remarks on Ukraine. Farage is looking increasingly isolated.

Farage won’t bite the hand he hopes will feed.

 

[jon0844]

Trump has name dropped Farage a couple of times and even let him speak at a rally once, but beyond that he doesn't care about Farage or anyone else in the UK.

We do most trade with the EU so if we need to hook up with anyone for our own safety, it isn't the USA. We're such a non entity these days that we'd be massively taken for a ride.

 

[The_Train]

Nigel was ranting over and over about those groomers from Glasgow recently. Oh, wait, no he wasn't.

It's always the way with the right. Hardly any discussions about this, nor the poor women who were subjected to that horrific crossbow attack which cost 3 of them their lives, nor the more recent murder of a woman in a shooting in a car park. There is one common theme to these incidents compared to the ones they do shout from the rooftops about..........

The truth is people like Farage are not in this to "save the women and children" as we so often hear spouted by their supporters, they use this as a line of attack against people who are not straight, white men and to build hatred against them to ensure full focus is on them whilst actually doing nothing to make anyone's lives any better apart from their own.

 

[sor]

I'm shocked (to the core) to see that Reform has largely been silent on the events of the last few days.

Farage appears to be in the US this weekend, representing Clacton on the world stage by speaking at CPAC. Business as usual then.

 

[brad465]

I'm shocked (to the core) to see that Reform has largely been silent on the events of the last few days.

Farage appears to be in the US this weekend, representing Clacton on the world stage by speaking at CPAC. Business as usual then.

Farage has been missing from Clacton for so long, I was able to claim £5,000 from the local police by providing them with information to help find him.

 

[jon0844]

I might move to Clacton as it seems to be the one place where you're absolutely assured you won't accidentally bump into him. Maybe the voters were actually smarter than I gave them credit for.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Farage has been missing from Clacton for so long, I was able to claim £5,000 from the local police by providing them with information to help find him.

Why did you want to find him?

 

[SteveP29]

I mean this with the greatest respect, but have you ever actually claimed benefits or worked with people who have had to claim benefits?

I have.

In order to claim Employment Support Allowance or Universal Credit on the basis of being unable to work, you must have a 'fit note' from your doctor saying you are not well enough to work. This will put you into the 'assessment phase' where you get a basic amount of ESA/UC.

You will then be invited to a 'Work Capability Assessment', where a DWP-appointed "medical expert" (usually someone like an occupational health therapist) will assess you and prepare a report. The DWP will use that report to decide whether you are a) well enough to work, b) well enough to work towards going back to work, or c) not well enough to do either.

If you are in group a your benefit stops, group b your benefit is at a basic amount equivalent to JSA/UC, and only group c is where you get additional benefit.

So what you propose for 'getting tough on claimants' is, actually, what already happens.

As for the accuracy of these reports from these "medical experts", there's an alarming statistic that the appellant (i.e. the benefit claimant) is successful in about 70% of appeals. This means that, in 70% of cases where someone appeals, the DWP is proven to have made the wrong decision in stopping someone's benefit.

A lot of what has been posted by the more right-leaning posters on this thread is illuminating. We have a real issue with disinformation these days and it's remarkable how so many people on this thread are simply regurgitating whatever it is that the far right repeat.

People who have little or no experience about how life actually works form opinions based on what they're told by people who are, to be quite frank, liars. Benefit claimants are scroungers and nobody checks on them. Asylum seekers get put up in five star hotels. The ECHR just allows anyone to stay in the country. You get the gist.

I don't blame individuals for this- you can't know what you don't know, so without lived experience you have to listen to what others say. And sadly we seem to be living in a world where the voices of far right grifters get amplified and anyone who actually has lived experience and knowledge of how stuff happens gets labelled a lefty liberal snowflake. Nobody wants to listen to experts anymore.

I wish there was a like button for this

I recall a pro-Brexit politician telling us during the referendum campaign that we didn't need any more experts. Just go by your gut instincts. We know where that leads to.

Trump's 'Murica have decided that he now holds sway over the legal system and what he says is the final. Seems they've decided to stop listening to experts too.

 

[DarloRich]

Trump's 'Murica have decided that he now holds sway over the legal system and what he says is the final. Seems they've decided to stop listening to experts too.

he is looking to make himself an absolute monarch / mafia don

 

[SteveP29]

I'm not anti benefits, I understand people sick or between jobs need some income to keep them going and it's already the lowest any country in Europe offers. The problem is the ballooning sickness benefits bill post Covid which is unlike any other European nation. Why has the UK suffered much worse - or has it? Was the nation really so unhealthy already or is it easier to falsely claim sickness benefits? This needs a study and claimants should need a doctors assessment to prevent abuse with a trust but verify approach where no one gets their benefits cut and they have a grace period to get a GP/specialist's assessment to continue claiming.

You do realise and understand that falsifying medical records or deliberately giving false information about a patient would result in that doctor being struck off and losing their livelihood, don't you?

It's about the principle, not the size.

As the performing arts professional said to the man of the cloth, possibly

Did you actually read any of the job descriptions to see what was actually involved in these roles? I note that the former is paid at consultant level; that would suggest to me that a particular skillset is required and suitably qualified people are generally quite well paid.

I suspect he may think that these are roles FOR people who EDI/ DEI protects

Grooming gangs and Islamic culture in large numbers.

Ahh, the old right wing fail safe, if losing on other subjects, just randomly throw in Muslim grooming gangs to change the subject.

There's an old Chinese proverb I'm about to massacre, but it says, when in hole, stop digging and throw away spade.

some are claiming that schoolchildren are being taught to identify as cats and use litter boxes instead of toilets for example. It’s total, utter, complete rubbish of course

You'd be surprised at the number of 'Muricans who would absolutely believe that without question and still refuse to acknowledge it's boll*cks when shown demonstrable evidence that it isn't true in the slightest

 

[DerekC]

Posting on this forum is good for finding out whether most people on it share what I think of as a civilised and democratic approach to solving problems, by trying to understand the causes and fix them, however complicated the issue. In general they seem to, but it's good that we have some Faragists to listen to as well, as it gives an idea how simplistic populist solutions and their underlying misinformation and half truths are propagated.

However I am thinking that it doesn't do much in terms of fighting (peacefully) for those ideas. We can't personally do much about Trump and it's clear that the UK is going to go through a difficult few years before our next election. What can we do to keep Farage from being swept to power on the pack of voters' disenchantment with mainstream politicians? "Nothing" is not an acceptable answer! I am going to go out to campaign - but who for? That's the difficult question.

 

[Cloud Strife]

What can we do to keep Farage from being swept to power on the pack of voters' disenchantment with mainstream politicians?

The crucial thing for the mainstream parties right now in England is to actually listen to what the voters are saying. A lot of this frustration comes from local issues, particularly highly paid council officials cutting public services to the bone while employing a large amount of frankly cold and inaccessible people in council offices.

A friend worked for many years as the head of the parks and gardens division for one council. Everyone was employed directly by the council. he had a reasonable budget to get the job done, and while he could always do with a bit more money, they generally were able to keep everything in decent condition. Along comes a new Chief Executive, who gutted the in-house services and put all the maintenance out to public tender. You'd think that the logical thing to do would be to get the old head to oversee the process, but nope, he was made redundant along with his entire team. Meanwhile, the same council then hired someone on twice his salary to oversee the tendering process, and that person stays in the job despite not really doing very much except overseeing the public areas contracts.

If you apply this to a Farage supporter, it's quite clear that they have experienced this sort of thing first or second hand. It repeats itself across many public services, not just those provided by councils. Schools, health care, etc - there is a recurring problem in that it's very difficult to actually get the help that you need. Another person I know works as a teacher in an academy, and it's brutal as to how little oversight there is from central or local government. They had a new 'celebrity CEO' run the school for a couple of years, only for the school to plunge downwards after the 'CEO' decided to impose some Dickensian-style rules on pupils. Many teachers left because they resented enforcing stupid and frankly moronic rules, and the quality of the school plunged down despite 'zero tolerance'.

The parties absolutely *have* to start listening to people, otherwise the far right will seduce them with their simple answers.

 

[Grimsby town]

The crucial thing for the mainstream parties right now in England is to actually listen to what the voters are saying. A lot of this frustration comes from local issues, particularly highly paid council officials cutting public services to the bone while employing a large amount of frankly cold and inaccessible people in council offices.

A friend worked for many years as the head of the parks and gardens division for one council. Everyone was employed directly by the council. he had a reasonable budget to get the job done, and while he could always do with a bit more money, they generally were able to keep everything in decent condition. Along comes a new Chief Executive, who gutted the in-house services and put all the maintenance out to public tender. You'd think that the logical thing to do would be to get the old head to oversee the process, but nope, he was made redundant along with his entire team. Meanwhile, the same council then hired someone on twice his salary to oversee the tendering process, and that person stays in the job despite not really doing very much except overseeing the public areas contracts.

If you apply this to a Farage supporter, it's quite clear that they have experienced this sort of thing first or second hand. It repeats itself across many public services, not just those provided by councils. Schools, health care, etc - there is a recurring problem in that it's very difficult to actually get the help that you need. Another person I know works as a teacher in an academy, and it's brutal as to how little oversight there is from central or local government. They had a new 'celebrity CEO' run the school for a couple of years, only for the school to plunge downwards after the 'CEO' decided to impose some Dickensian-style rules on pupils. Many teachers left because they resented enforcing stupid and frankly moronic rules, and the quality of the school plunged down despite 'zero tolerance'.

The parties absolutely *have* to start listening to people, otherwise the far right will seduce them with their simple answers.

What does Reform have to offer somebody in this situation? Farage is a massive proponent of the freemarket and small government. They're not going to provide government oversight and they want to massively cut spending.

It reminds me of something I saw from the US the other day. Musk's DOGE fired a person who cleans the toilets at Yosemite, clearly not a well paid job but one that has a beneficial impact to people's impact of Yosemite. The public sector job cuts are indiscriminate . Reform's 'not a manifesto' called for huge cuts in government spending in the last election. The likes of Labour need to get their act together but they also need to attack the impact these spending cuts will have on public services.

 

[class17]

I recall a pro-Brexit politician telling us during the referendum campaign that we didn't need any more experts. Just go by your gut instincts. We know where that leads to.

It was Michael Grove

Contains a video clip - Gove: Britons "Have Had Enough of Experts"

"When senior British politician Michael Gove announced in 2016 that the public had “had enough of experts” in the lead up to the Brexit vote, it highlighted a growing trend for questioning the authority and power of experts.

Only last month, the home secretary, Suella Braverman, took to the stage at the National Conservatism conference to rail against “experts and elites”. Such comments form part of a broader pattern where experts and their authority have faced significant challenges and threats from various economic, political, social and cultural sources........."

 

[brad465]

The crucial thing for the mainstream parties right now in England is to actually listen to what the voters are saying. A lot of this frustration comes from local issues, particularly highly paid council officials cutting public services to the bone while employing a large amount of frankly cold and inaccessible people in council offices.

A friend worked for many years as the head of the parks and gardens division for one council. Everyone was employed directly by the council. he had a reasonable budget to get the job done, and while he could always do with a bit more money, they generally were able to keep everything in decent condition. Along comes a new Chief Executive, who gutted the in-house services and put all the maintenance out to public tender. You'd think that the logical thing to do would be to get the old head to oversee the process, but nope, he was made redundant along with his entire team. Meanwhile, the same council then hired someone on twice his salary to oversee the tendering process, and that person stays in the job despite not really doing very much except overseeing the public areas contracts.

If you apply this to a Farage supporter, it's quite clear that they have experienced this sort of thing first or second hand. It repeats itself across many public services, not just those provided by councils. Schools, health care, etc - there is a recurring problem in that it's very difficult to actually get the help that you need. Another person I know works as a teacher in an academy, and it's brutal as to how little oversight there is from central or local government. They had a new 'celebrity CEO' run the school for a couple of years, only for the school to plunge downwards after the 'CEO' decided to impose some Dickensian-style rules on pupils. Many teachers left because they resented enforcing stupid and frankly moronic rules, and the quality of the school plunged down despite 'zero tolerance'.

The parties absolutely *have* to start listening to people, otherwise the far right will seduce them with their simple answers.

As it happens there's a report today of increased funding for councils cited as having tough financial pressures. Whether it addresses the issues remains to be seen but big changes require many small steps:

Exceptional Financial Support for local authorities for 2025-26

Details of support granted to local authorities that have requested Exceptional Financial Support in financial year 2025-26.

www.gov.uk

In the financial year 2025-26 the government has agreed to provide 30 councils with support to manage financial pressures via the Exceptional Financial Support process. For 8 councils this included agreement to support for prior years.

Councils were provided with in-principle capitalisation support in February 2025 ahead of their budget setting. This page will be updated with final amounts of capitalisation agreed and capitalisation directions issued once confirmed.

This page shows the decisions that were taken to provide councils with Exceptional Financial Support prior to the beginning of the financial year 2025-26. Please note that decisions can relate to prior financial years and can amend the profile of support in those prior years. The pages for previous years have been updated to reflect the most recent decisions.

Local authority	Exceptional Financial Support requests from local authorities: 2025-26
Barnet	£55.7m (support agreed in-principle)
Birmingham	£180.0m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2024-25, this has been revised to £490.0m (from £685.0m)
Bradford	£127.1m (support agreed in-principle)
Cheshire East	£25.3m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2024-25, this has been revised to £17.6m (from £6m)
Croydon	£136.0m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2023-24, this has been revised to £50.0m (from £63.0m), and for support agreed in-principle for 2024-25, this has been revised to £51m (from £38m)
Cumberland	£23.439m (support agreed in-principle)
Eastbourne	£2.0m (support agreed in-principle)
Enfield	£10.0m (support agreed in-principle) £20.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Halton	£32.0m (support agreed in-principle) £20.8m (support agreed in-principle 2024-25)
Haringey	£37.0m (support agreed in-principle) £28.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Havering	£88.0m (support agreed in-principle)
Medway	£18.484m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2024-25, this has been revised to £23.171m (from £14.742m)
Newham	£51.2m (support agreed in-principle) £16.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Nottingham	£25.0m (support agreed in-principle)
Shropshire	£26.9m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Slough	£15.709m (support agreed in-principle)
Solihull	£32.658m (support agreed in-principle) £15.615m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Somerset	£63.0m (support agreed in-principle) Note: Provisionally incudes revised support agreed in 2024-25, subject to final confirmation
Southampton	£89.9m (support agreed in-principle) Note: Provisionally incudes revised support agreed in 2024-25, subject to final confirmation
Stoke-on-Trent	£16.8m (support agreed in-principle)
Swindon	£14.7m (support agreed in-principle)
Thurrock	£72.0m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2022-23, this has been revised to £130.0m (from £40.0m agreed in February 2024), for 2023-24, this has been revised to £184.0m (from £234.5m agreed in February 2024), and for 2024-25, this has been revised to £96.0m (from £68.6m agreed in February 2024)
Trafford	£9.6m (support agreed in-principle)
West Berkshire	£3.0m (support agreed in-principle) £13.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Windsor & Maidenhead	£41.0m (support agreed in-principle) £62.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Wirral	£7.5m (support agreed in-principle) £20.0m (support agreed in-principle for 2024-25)
Woking	£74.6m (support agreed in-principle) Note: For support agreed in-principle for 2024-25, this has been revised to £93.6m (from £95.6m)
Worcestershire	£33.6m (support agreed in-principle)
Worthing	£2.0m (support agreed in-principle)

 

[muz379]

What does Reform have to offer somebody in this situation? Farage is a massive proponent of the freemarket and small government. They're not going to provide government oversight and they want to massively cut spending.

It reminds me of something I saw from the US the other day. Musk's DOGE fired a person who cleans the toilets at Yosemite, clearly not a well paid job but one that has a beneficial impact to people's impact of Yosemite. The public sector job cuts are indiscriminate . Reform's 'not a manifesto' called for huge cuts in government spending in the last election. The likes of Labour need to get their act together but they also need to attack the impact these spending cuts will have on public services.

Quite simplistic really , Reform and similar small state , free market conservative thinkers basically offer people the solution that they get to keep more of their money because ultimately they know better how to spend it . A tempting prospect perhaps if you didn't think about it critically .

In reality , the small state free market stuff is more about giving the wealthy and big business tax cuts . That is precisely why Trump has instructed Musk to try and find so many savings so he can lower taxes for the wealthy .

It was Michael Grove

Contains a video clip - Gove: Britons "Have Had Enough of Experts"

"When senior British politician Michael Gove announced in 2016 that the public had “had enough of experts” in the lead up to the Brexit vote, it highlighted a growing trend for questioning the authority and power of experts.

Only last month, the home secretary, Suella Braverman, took to the stage at the National Conservatism conference to rail against “experts and elites”. Such comments form part of a broader pattern where experts and their authority have faced significant challenges and threats from various economic, political, social and cultural sources........."

Exactly the type of thinking that leads to people like Boris Johnson , Trump , Liz Truss and Reform getting into office . Don't worry about expert led policy making just go with your gut instincts .

 

[Harpo]

The Gove ‘fed up with experts’ is an overt version of something I was warned of early in my career - ‘Don’t bother me with facts’ managers.

 

[jon0844]

Quite simplistic really , Reform and similar small state , free market conservative thinkers basically offer people the solution that they get to keep more of their money because ultimately they know better how to spend it . A tempting prospect perhaps if you didn't think about it critically .

It was some years ago but Channel 4 did an experiment with a street that the council allowed to be 'cut off' from regular services, and that the residents no longer had to pay council tax on.

Instead they were able to pool the money and decide what services to fund. As you can imagine, it didn't go so well.

It's all very good paying no tax and being able to spend whatever you want, but less good when that money doesn't go so far (which it can't compared to services funded by everyone). The rich will pay the same for most services as the poor, so they're fine.

Hence why tariffs will help the rich. They can pay 20-25% more on things and be quite fine if they no longer have to pay income tax on millions and billions.