Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[MikeWM]

Someone threw a motorbike on to the earthing cable at Hitchin last night which has resulted in a reduction of services to alleviate stress on the power supply in the area

Seems a bit unnecessary to cancel all the fasts while it is apparently ok to run the 2tph semi-fasts and 2tph slows as normal. A better mix seems it would have been preferable. Once again the 0948 from Ely didn't run, which leaves me in suspense as to whether I need to moan about the diagram now being run by a 700, or not, until tomorrow (assuming it runs then...)

Also there were the mysterious 'emergency engineering works' last week which stopped services early on at least two nights at very short notice, though there didn't seem to be much explanation of what they actually were.

On the other hand, the weekend service didn't look terrible, for once. Some cancellations due to driver shortages but nothing as dramatic as you may have expected just before Christmas.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Oof! No wonder it's taking awhile to fix it. Services are completely disrupted for the rest of the day.

 

[MikeWM]

Combining the GN issues with the still-present hour of missing Liverpool Street services and the 1707 service from Liverpool Street still non-stopping, there isn't going to be a single departure from Cambridge North tonight - in any direction - between 1739 and 1832. After all, who needs to go home after a day at the office?

 

[700720]

Seems a bit unnecessary to cancel all the fasts while it is apparently ok to run the 2tph semi-fasts and 2tph slows as normal. A better mix seems it would have been preferable.

Cancelling the fasts south of Cambridge is arguably the least disruptive thing to do in this situation - people will only be delayed by just under 30 mins at most. I’d rather know that they will all definitely be cancelled rather than having a heavily disrupted service where you have no idea which train will get you home quicker! The Brighton services tend to have a decent amount of spare capacity - that is, providing the TL Core hasn’t collapsed as it so often does!

 

[MikeWM]

Cancelling the fasts south of Cambridge is arguably the least disruptive thing to do in this situation - people will only be delayed by just under 30 mins at most.

If you're travelling to Cambridge, yes. Not if you're travelling north of there, which is a decent proportion nowadays of the people on the fast services.

If you normally get the 1739 Kings Cross to Kings Lynn, for example, even if you manage to get the 1731 off St Pancras to Cambridge instead, the 'shuttle' to Kings Lynn leaves Cambridge a few minutes before that arrives, so you're going to be an hour late getting home if you're going north of Ely.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Indeed, had I not managed to negotiate leaving early for the St Pancras stopper I’d have been circa 50 mins late due to the connections at Cambridge for Ely from the Kings Cross stopper. Then it was sardines on the Norwich train.
I was over 30 mins late again this morning.

 

[Intercity_225]

Many cancellations at Stevenage today, 12:32, 12:38, 12:39, 13:02, 13:39 and the 14:01 are all cancelled due to lack of crew.

 

[bramling]

Many cancellations at Stevenage today, 12:32, 12:38, 12:39, 13:02, 13:39 and the 14:01 are all cancelled due to lack of crew.

Half term week!

Unfortunately it’s this sort of thing driving people away from purchasing season tickets. Why should I invest in a product which only delivers *some* of the time?

 

[Failed Unit]

Half term week!

Unfortunately it’s this sort of thing driving people away from purchasing season tickets. Why should I invest in a product which only delivers *some* of the time?

I forgot about that. We also have a lot of “more trains needing repairs then normal”

I suspect that is why we are still on a half hourly service on the metro. DfT lying about lack of demand sounds better then admitting after 6 years of the new timetable (introduced 2018) GTR still can resource it.

 

[Bikeman78]

I forgot about that. We also have a lot of “more trains needing repairs then normal”

I suspect that is why we are still on a half hourly service on the metro. DfT lying about lack of demand sounds better then admitting after 6 years of the new timetable (introduced 2018) GTR still can resource it.

Ironically they did resource it back in class 313 days. I spent a couple of days whizzing around on them and it all ran like clockwork.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ironically they did resource it back in class 313 days. I spent a couple of days whizzing around on them and it all ran like clockwork.

They did have to run an emergency timetable on a few occasions post the 2018 change, due to staff shortages, but agree it did sometimes work. The along came the 717s (which meant driver training) and it never worked properly since as they didn't have enough staff to run the services and train for new stock, which I thnk also included the 387s

 

[jon0844]

There are still lots of drivers being trained, but while that's going on there is presumably also the need to get a lot of drivers to have their 379 conversion courses. It may be relatively quick to do, but it does rely on arranging the rosters and presumably having working units!

 

[riceuten]

There are still lots of drivers being trained, but while that's going on there is presumably also the need to get a lot of drivers to have their 379 conversion courses. It may be relatively quick to do, but it does rely on arranging the rosters and presumably having working units!

"Lots of drivers being trained" is something we've been hearing since FCC days. If they are numerically not replacing the numbers of drivers retiring or moving TOCs, then, at best, it's retaining the status quo.

Whatever the debate, there are, have been and remain insufficient numbers of drivers for the timetabled service

 

[dk1]

"Lots of drivers being trained" is something we've been hearing since FCC days. If they are numerically not replacing the numbers of drivers retiring or moving TOCs, then, at best, it's retaining the status quo.

Whatever the debate, there are, have been and remain insufficient numbers of drivers for the timetabled service

Plenty have moved from GA to GN.

 

[riceuten]

Plenty have moved from GA to GN.

I'm sure they have. But GN still don't have enough drivers

 

[MikeWM]

"Lots of drivers being trained" is something we've been hearing since FCC days.

Indeed, and shortly after GTR took over - 125 months ago - they said they were doing the biggest driver training program ever to sort out these issues. Yet, over 10 years later, here we are.

Even when their 'service' does run, their performance is appalling. Here's the last 4 weeks of evening weekday peak services from Kings Cross to Ely from RecentTrainTimes:


I've looked around quite widely and haven't managed to find any comparable journeys across the entire country with 'within 5 minutes' numbers as poor as this. Liverpool to Leeds is the closest I found, and that doesn't have any services remotely as bad as an *average* of being 24L (!). Even Liverpool to Norwich has much better figures than these!

 

[jon0844]

"Lots of drivers being trained" is something we've been hearing since FCC days. If they are numerically not replacing the numbers of drivers retiring or moving TOCs, then, at best, it's retaining the status quo.

It's a continuous process, but you can see on this very forum the depots that have been hiring and still are.

If it takes 16-17 months to become a driver, but an existing driver can leave with about a month notice (4 weeks?) then there are always going to be ups and downs on numbers. I can't see how you could ever have the exact number you need all the time.

 

[riceuten]

It's a continuous process, but you can see on this very forum the depots that have been hiring and still are.

If it takes 16-17 months to become a driver, but an existing driver can leave with about a month notice (4 weeks?) then there are always going to be ups and downs on numbers. I can't see how you could ever have the exact number you need all the time.

But if you're not recruiting sufficient drivers, you're not going to be able to run the contracted services. When you state "there are always going to be ups and downs and numbers", I'd be interested when you think there WERE sufficient drivers?

To get the correct number you'd need sufficient relief drivers, and if the sole emphasis is the bottom line, no-one will ever do this

 

[Unobrow]

It's a continuous process, but you can see on this very forum the depots that have been hiring and still are.

If it takes 16-17 months to become a driver, but an existing driver can leave with about a month notice (4 weeks?) then there are always going to be ups and downs on numbers. I can't see how you could ever have the exact number you need all the time.

It’s 3 months notice at our place. I’m pretty sure quite a few others are too.

 

[dk1]

It’s 3 months notice at our place. I’m pretty sure quite a few others are too.

We are officially 3 months however they will do their best to accommodate anybody who needs to go much quicker than that. I’ve never known it to be an issue,

 

[MikeWM]

We've got the first 'normal' weekend service on GN since before Christmas in a few days. Wonder how well that will go? :-/

 

[Bikeman78]

Indeed, and shortly after GTR took over - 125 months ago - they said they were doing the biggest driver training program ever to sort out these issues. Yet, over 10 years later, here we are.

Even when their 'service' does run, their performance is appalling. Here's the last 4 weeks of evening weekday peak services from Kings Cross to Ely from RecentTrainTimes:

View attachment 174904
I've looked around quite widely and haven't managed to find any comparable journeys across the entire country with 'within 5 minutes' numbers as poor as this. Liverpool to Leeds is the closest I found, and that doesn't have any services remotely as bad as an *average* of being 24L (!). Even Liverpool to Norwich has much better figures than these!

What sort of things are causing the 1839 to be so bad? I used to trundle around on the class 317s and they were usually within a few minutes of schedule in that era. Obviously they had bad days but I'm sure tge average was better than these figures.

 

[jon0844]

The speed restrictions near WGC must be having an impact on trains out of King's Cross in the peak. In place for some time now.

 

[MikeWM]

What sort of things are causing the 1839 to be so bad? I used to trundle around on the class 317s and they were usually within a few minutes of schedule in that era. Obviously they had bad days but I'm sure tge average was better than these figures.

There does seem to have been a significant deterioration since the December timetable change - over on the 379 thread I speculated last week it was partly due to the new Letchworth terminators delaying things, though I'm not sure that this is the issue most of the time.

I'll try to look out for the next few weeks and see what's happening. Last night the 1839 wasn't too bad (left KGX on time, 5 late by Ely) but the 1912 was awful (32 late at Ely - the 1939 was actually ahead of it!).

The reason for that appears to be that the 1512 from KGX to Lynn lost about 10 minutes between Welwyn and Baldock, arriving at Lynn 17 down, so the 1710 from Lynn to KGX started 16 late, lost another 10 minutes waiting for the single line between Downham Market and Littleport, then lost another 13 somehow between Cambridge and KGX, arriving 35 late at KGX to form the 1912, which left 31 late.

Only a single data point, but it appears to me that the turnaround times on this service at both KGX and KLN are rather tight (just 10 minutes at both), and any delay results in hitting congestion on the ECML (Welwyn viaduct?), catching up to the stoppers between Hitchin and Cambridge, and the single-track sections between Ely and KLN.

 

[Horizon22]

Indeed, and shortly after GTR took over - 125 months ago - they said they were doing the biggest driver training program ever to sort out these issues. Yet, over 10 years later, here we are.

Even when their 'service' does run, their performance is appalling. Here's the last 4 weeks of evening weekday peak services from Kings Cross to Ely from RecentTrainTimes:

View attachment 174904
I've looked around quite widely and haven't managed to find any comparable journeys across the entire country with 'within 5 minutes' numbers as poor as this. Liverpool to Leeds is the closest I found, and that doesn't have any services remotely as bad as an *average* of being 24L (!). Even Liverpool to Norwich has much better figures than these!

It reads to me like a timetable that does not work properly for much of these.

Some of the worst performers on that list have run every day (which wouldn't be the case without a driver) and appear to be timetable critical; (i.e if out of path, you've lost all hope and will only go worse. Especially the 1839. Perhaps Welwyn viaduct is indeed a cause as it won't be given priority so just gets later and later. Something is happening on the previous workings with regards to train crew (and some cancellations of course) to cause such lateness into London (and the back out).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

I'll try to look out for the next few weeks and see what's happening. Last night the 1839 wasn't too bad (left KGX on time, 5 late by Ely) but the 1912 was awful (32 late at Ely - the 1939 was actually ahead of it!).

The reason for that appears to be that the 1512 from KGX to Lynn lost about 10 minutes between Welwyn and Baldock, arriving at Lynn 17 down, so the 1710 from Lynn to KGX started 16 late, lost another 10 minutes waiting for the single line between Downham Market and Littleport, then lost another 13 somehow between Cambridge and KGX, arriving 35 late at KGX to form the 1912, which left 31 late.

You would expect better service recovery and control by GTR for something like that otherwise you run late all throughout the peak.

 

[bramling]

There does seem to have been a significant deterioration since the December timetable change - over on the 379 thread I speculated last week it was partly due to the new Letchworth terminators delaying things, though I'm not sure that this is the issue most of the time.

I'll try to look out for the next few weeks and see what's happening. Last night the 1839 wasn't too bad (left KGX on time, 5 late by Ely) but the 1912 was awful (32 late at Ely - the 1939 was actually ahead of it!).

The reason for that appears to be that the 1512 from KGX to Lynn lost about 10 minutes between Welwyn and Baldock, arriving at Lynn 17 down, so the 1710 from Lynn to KGX started 16 late, lost another 10 minutes waiting for the single line between Downham Market and Littleport, then lost another 13 somehow between Cambridge and KGX, arriving 35 late at KGX to form the 1912, which left 31 late.

Only a single data point, but it appears to me that the turnaround times on this service at both KGX and KLN are rather tight (just 10 minutes at both), and any delay results in hitting congestion on the ECML (Welwyn viaduct?), catching up to the stoppers between Hitchin and Cambridge, and the single-track sections between Ely and KLN.

I don’t want to appear too critical, however the regulating seems to have nose-dived since the signalling was transferred from King’s Cross PSB to York ROC. The signalling seems very lackadaisical nowadays, no attempt ever seems to be made to iron out small delays.

 

[Steve Harris]

I don’t want to appear too critical, however the regulating seems to have nose-dived since the signalling was transferred from King’s Cross PSB to York ROC. The signalling seems very lackadaisical nowadays, no attempt ever seems to be made to iron out small delays.

Possibly an ARS issue ??

 

[James90012]

The two track section Hitchin to Cambridge compounds the issues too. Generally my observations commuting are that it's the timekeeping on the stopper which causes a lot of problems, in both directions, especially as the services interwork at King's Cross too.

The December recast should help by splitting up the stopping service at peak times - that thread across Welwyn slow to fast to slow doesn't work reliably enough. It's too common for the stopper to be 5 late at Stevenage, held for a fast at Knebworth to then fall behind a Moorgate stopper and lose more time.

 

[jon0844]

Possibly an ARS issue ??

Yes I am sure it is. If York isn't on the ball looking at things you'll get routes set automatically and causing delays and illogical routings. Trains skipping stops won't get put out onto the fast to overtake and catch up, often ending up almost stopping at the stations they skip and running the risk of people trying to board or egress.

I assume the system just looks to run 9x, 1x and 2x services in that order unless told otherwise.

 

[wagnaga]

Yes I am sure it is. If York isn't on the ball looking at things you'll get routes set automatically and causing delays and illogical routings. Trains skipping stops won't get put out onto the fast to overtake and catch up, often ending up almost stopping at the stations they skip and running the risk of people trying to board or egress.

I assume the system just looks to run 9x, 1x and 2x services in that order unless told otherwise.

Are the staff at York overloaded with work so just unable to be across everything or is it a loss of familiarity and experience with a route to know the best way of resolving an issue on a real world basis rather than a headcode basis?