caught using wrong railcard today

[DeverseSam]

You would do better to be using Oyster for these sort of trips - you can have your railcard applied to an Oyster card and there is no risk of paying the wrong fare, plus Oyster fares are usually cheaper than what you can buy through Trainline.

@sillygirlfines This, from now, rather than buying rail tickets from North Dulwich etc

 

[Snow1964]

Hi there - I am considering contacting a solicitor, is this the right thing to do at this stage?

I am seeing some cases take months to get the letter and I am not sure I can cope with the stress. I have not slept at all and keep imagining the worst.

A solicitor cannot do anything yet, wait until railway contact you and you know what you are dealing with. Then decide. A solicitor might cost more than any potential settlement offer.

Typically you will get a letter in 4-7 weeks (varies depending on how busy they are), you will make yourself ill if you are fretting that long, so try and park your worries in meantime.

 

[Pushpit]

Hi there - I am considering contacting a solicitor, is this the right thing to do at this stage?

I am seeing some cases take months to get the letter and I am not sure I can cope with the stress. I have not slept at all and keep imagining the worst. This has really shaken me and I have never thought about these consequences before and just how unbelievably foolish I have been.

I would suggest you ring your GP surgery for help with this. It may not need you to see a doctor, it may be a Social Prescriber can help. This NHS page may help in the mean time:

Get help with anxiety, fear or panic

NHS information and advice about what to do if you find it hard to cope with anxiety, fear or panic.

www.nhs.uk

When it comes to GTR there isn't a lot a solicitor can add at this stage, so unless you have lots of spare money to waste then I can't see how it will help, It doesn't tie in with your previous comments about being on a low wage. You have already done an approximation of the potential penalty (90 x £4.30 x 2 if a return journey) and there will be £150 or so of GTR costs on top. Realistically this is the likely outcome, being asked to pay that. If you can afford a solicitor then you can afford GTR's likely proposal, since they tend to be in the £500 to £1000 range.

 

[sillygirlfines]

It doesn't tie in with your previous comments about being on a low wage.

I have an emergency credit card and my partner said he would lend me. But I’ve realised that wouldn’t be a smart way to spend the little money I have when I don’t even know the fine yet. I will just wait to see what the letter says before I do anything drastic.
Thanks for sending the NHS page as well I appreciate you trying to help. I've had a moment to calm down now after a night from hell and realised there's nothing I can do until the letter comes and I will have to hope they will let me apologise and pay any fine they see fit. I certainly won't be doing this kind of this again they can be sure of that!

 

[Hadders]

I have an emergency credit card and my partner said he would lend me. But I’ve realised that wouldn’t be a smart way to spend the little money I have when I don’t even know the fine yet. I will just wait to see what the letter says before I do anything drastic.

Thanks for sending the NHS page as well I appreciate you trying to help. I've had a moment to calm down now after a night from hell and realised there's nothing I can do until the letter comes and I will have to hope they will let me apologise and pay any fine they see fit. I certainly won't be doing this kind of this again they can be sure of that!

I think this is a sensible approach. Come back here when the letter arrives and we can assist with next steps. In the meantimes (and I know this is easy to say...) but in the meantime try and put what's happened to the back of your mind and get on with your life. You'll be able to sort it out when the time comes.

 

[sillygirlfines]

Hi everyone, apologies for another message so soon but I seem to have lost the investigation ticket. It must have fallen out my bag or I’ve accidentally thrown it away.

I gave the correct address and have updated all my accounts with my address, but I’m worried as they couldn’t find me on the system I wont receive it. If I don’t receive the letter is there a way I can contact them about this ?

 

[WesternLancer]

, but I’m worried as they couldn’t find me on the system I wont receive it.

Do you mean 'IF they couldn't find you on their system' ? (or do you know that they can not find you on their system?)

If you gave a correct address it is likely that they will have no problem finding you.

It would have helped if you had not lost the investigation ticket because it might have had a reference number on it that you could have used when contacting them, but it's too late now and probably not vital anyway.

 

[sillygirlfines]

Do you mean 'IF they couldn't find you on their system' ? (or do you know that they can not find you on their system?)

If you gave a correct address it is likely that they will have no problem finding you.

It would have helped if you had not lost the investigation ticket because it might have had a referenced number on it that you could have used when contacting them, but it's too late now and probably not vital anyway.

When I gave them my details (name DOB address etc) they couldn’t find my account. They did scan my trainline ticket though so assuming they’ll find my account and ive since added it to my address as it wasn’t on there before. I will just have to hope they send it to the right address and keep checking the mail.

If not, would it best to reach out to them with my email address and trainline account? Maybe in a few months time ?

 

[WesternLancer]

When I gave them my details (name DOB address etc) they couldn’t find my account. They did scan my trainline ticket though so assuming they’ll find my account and ive since added it to my address as it wasn’t on there before. I will just have to hope they send it to the right address and keep checking the mail.

If not, would it best to reach out to them with my email address and trainline account? Maybe in a few months time ?

By your 'account' I assume you mean a ticket buying account with Trainline?

If they have your address it does not matter that they can't find your Trainline account (and in fact it is probably in your best interests if they can't find it because that means they can't look into all of your past tickets to see if any mistakes with them).

I would just sit tight, wait for them to contact you and do not contact them - this could be by post, or e-mail (s also check your spam) and any e-mnail linked to a ticket purchasing account if you use a different e-mail for that - if so check that too.

If the incident only happened on the 4th of feb I suspect your case has not go to the top of the pile to be dealt with yet - they will be a small team of very few staff dealing with hundreds of cases like yours because they catch so many people who don't buy correct tickets.

 

[sillygirlfines]

Hello. I have just received my email from GTR. I have attached it below, they put East Dulwich instead of North?

Anyway any help with the response would be great appreciated!

 

[AlterEgo]

You can correct them about the station of origin, but as it stands, you now face an honesty test to settle with Southeastern, who have detected other times you have paid the wrong fare. As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, your purchase history is very suspicious and I advise that if you try to claim you really did travel only one stop, that you substantiate this with evidence of, for example, your bicycle hires. You are best off compiling a spreadsheet of all the occasions you fare evaded and submitting it to them with a promise to pay the outstanding fares promptly and an apology.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello. I have just received my email from GTR. I have attached it below, they put East Dulwich instead of North?

Anyway any help with the response would be great appreciated!

Nothing's going to turn on the East/North typo: for the moment this is an informal letter and you clearly understand what it means, so there isn't a problem to solve: and even if it was a summons from the court or similar I'd expect there to be something in the law to allow small mistakes to be made without invalidating the whole notice.

In terms of replying to the letter, @Hadders often gives some excellent advice, which you can find on other threads - or they may well be along later to give you a tailored version to fit your circumstances. For the moment, I would note that GTR haven't asked about anything other than the time when you were caught. So it's often suggested that you only need to reply about that time.

(Edited to strike through advice based on misreading the letter)

 

[sillygirlfines]

Nothing's going to turn on the East/North typo: for the moment this is an informal letter and you clearly understand what it means, so there isn't a problem to solve: and even if it was a summons from the court or similar I'd expect there to be something in the law to allow small mistakes to be made without invalidating the whole notice.

In terms of replying to the letter, @Hadders often gives some excellent advice, which you can find on other threads - or they may well be along later to give you a tailored version to fit your circumstances. For the moment, I would note that GTR haven't asked about anything other than the time when you were caught. So it's often suggested that you only need to reply about that time.

As they have mentioned the multiple dates, should I not mention this in my letter?

 

[AlterEgo]

For the moment, I would note that GTR haven't asked about anything other than the time when you were caught. So it's often suggested that you only need to reply about that time.

The letter specifically says they have established that the OP has evaded fares on multiple dates, so they must address this. It is now unavoidable.

 

[sillygirlfines]

here's my draft letter, @Hadders I would really appreciate if you could proof read this for me aswell. Thanks so much!:


Dear Fraud Investigation Team,

I am writing in response to the email I have received today to explain my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars.

I want to start by apologising for what I have done, I have failed to use the right railcard when travelling from North Dulwich multiple times in a stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage. What I have done is incredibly foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself that I allowed myself to think this was acceptable behaviour.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR and I am now aware of the significant effects of incorrect fares on the service and the taxpayer. I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how careless I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for my actions and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I would really appreciate resolving this out of court if possible and I am more than happy to pay any fine that you see fit for my actions and I can pay immediately to resolve this, alongside any administrative costs it has taken to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[AlterEgo]

here's my draft letter, @Hadders I would really appreciate if you could proof read this for me aswell. Thanks so much!:


Dear Fraud Investigation Team,

I am writing in response to the email I have received today to explain my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars.

I want to start by apologising for what I have done, I have failed to use the right railcard when travelling from North Dulwich multiple times in a stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage. What I have done is incredibly foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself that I allowed myself to think this was acceptable behaviour.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR and I wasn't aware of significant effects of incorrect fares on the service. I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how careless I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for my actions and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I would really appreciate resolving this out of court if possible and I am more than happy to pay any fine that you see fit for my actions and I can pay immediately to resolve this, alongside any administrative costs it has taken to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

This is your opportunity to be completely honest with them and it's important that, when you decide to come clean, that you are honest and deal with everything in one go.

Did you or did you not short fare as well in this time?

You say that you are worried they will find your ticket purchases suspicious.

Are you able to substantiate your journeys, with evidence, on multiple one-stop tickets wholly within London for which contactless is cheaper and easier? They will have detected this too.

London Bridge to Blackfriars is about 7-8 minutes cycling and is quicker than leaving the bike there and taking the train. The investigators weren't born yesterday and deal with this stuff all the time. Remember they have already got all the information they need by auditing your ticket purchases; you are now the subject of an honesty test to see if you've learned your lesson.

 

[sillygirlfines]

This is your opportunity to be completely honest with them and it's important that, when you decide to come clean, that you are honest and deal with everything in one go.

Did you or did you not short fare as well in this time?

You say that you are worried they will find your ticket purchases suspicious.

Are you able to substantiate your journeys, with evidence, on multiple one-stop tickets wholly within London for which contactless is cheaper and easier? They will have detected this too.

London Bridge to Blackfriars is about 7-8 minutes cycling and is quicker than leaving the bike there and taking the train. The investigators weren't born yesterday and deal with this stuff all the time. Remember they have already got all the information they need by auditing your ticket purchases; you are now the subject of an honesty test to see if you've learned your lesson.

Oh right sorry I see what you mean. I also need to admit to not buying the full ticket from ND to LDN BF. In a stupid anxiety ridden panic after I got caught i deleted my trainline account so I can't see all the evidence but I have some emails, not all, but I have edited accordingly below:


Dear Fraud Investigation Team,




I am writing in response to the email I have received today to discuss my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars on the 4th of February.


I want to sincerely apologise for failing to use the right railcard and wrong ticket when travelling between North Dulwich to LDN Bridge/Blackfriars on multiple occasions in a stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage. What I have done is incredibly foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR and I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how careless I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for my actions and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I would be extremely grateful if you would consider the opportunity for me to pay a fine for my outstanding fares to resolve this out of court if this is possible, alongside any administrative costs to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The letter specifically says they have established that the OP has evaded fares on multiple dates, so they must address this. It is now unavoidable.

Apologies to all - I misread that part. I'll strike through the actively wrong bit of what I wrote.

 

[sillygirlfines]

Sorry I understand what you’re saying now. I have edited accordingly:

Dear Fraud Investigation Team,




I am writing in response to the email I have received today to discuss my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars on the 4th of February.


I want to sincerely apologise for failing to use the right railcard and wrong ticket when travelling between North Dulwich to LDN Bridge/Blackfriars on multiple occasions in a stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage. What I have done is incredibly foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR and I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how careless I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for my actions and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I would be extremely grateful if you would consider the opportunity for me to pay a fine for my outstanding fares to resolve this out of court if this is possible, alongside any administrative costs to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[AlterEgo]

I want to sincerely apologise for failing to use the right railcard and wrong ticket when travelling between North Dulwich to LDN Bridge/Blackfriars on multiple occasions

Other than being grammatically incorrect, this does not in fact admit to short faring. A ticket can be wrong because it was improperly discounted, as all yours were. There is no point being indirect about this in the hope they don't really understand such an obtuse sentence.

You have numerous *London Bridge to Blackfriars* tickets which don't reflect the full journey undertaken, so you need to actually address it. You sentence actually reads that you are apologising for journeys between North Dulwich to London Bridge OR Blackfriars.

What about your other trips, like Clapham to Victoria? You need to accompany this with a spreadsheet of the journeys for the best chance of settling out of court. This exercise feels very much like yanking a toddler by their ear to apologise to someone - you are an adult, and you have been well and truly caught and all your purchases audited. The game is up, so it is time for you to accept the consequences and write a proper apology and say what you did.

 

[MotCO]

You may want to include their reference number at the start of the letter so they can match up your response to your case.

Others have suggested that using Oyster would be a cheaper option for you. You may want to say that you are now using Oyster as part of your actions to show that you have learnt your lesson and taken steps to find ways to legally reduce your commuting costs. However, it may raise the issue as to why you didn't use Oyster in the first place, so it's your call.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Sorry I understand what you’re saying now. I have edited accordingly:

Dear Fraud Investigation Team,




I am writing in response to the email I have received today to discuss my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars on the 4th of February.


I want to sincerely apologise for failing to use the right railcard and wrong ticket when travelling between North Dulwich to LDN Bridge/Blackfriars on multiple occasions in a stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage. What I have done is incredibly foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR and I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how careless I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for my actions and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.

I would be extremely grateful if you would consider the opportunity for me to pay a fine for my outstanding fares to resolve this out of court if this is possible, alongside any administrative costs to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

“Careless” isn’t the right word. It implies what happened occurred because you didn’t pay attention, whereas in fact it was deliberate.

As others have said, now is the time for honesty, however difficult that might be

 

[sillygirlfines]

I've drafted again below, as I've said previously - I deleted my trainline account when I was panicked (yes, stupid i know) so I can't see all the trips but I have some on emails, so I can compile some of them but not all of them, which I am working on now. To answer @AlterEgo about Clapham - Victoria, I looked back at my email so it was actually the correct railcard so not relevant anymore.

Dear Fraud Investigation Team,

I am writing in response to the email I have received today to discuss my invalid rail ticket journey between North Dulwich and London Blackfriars on the 4th of February. My reference number is XX

I want to begin by sincerely apologising for my actions. I have been short faring between North Dulwich and London Bridge, or North Dulwich to London Blackfriars, buying tickets from the closest stop instead of North Dulwich. I have also been using the wrong railcard. This has all been an incredibly stupid attempt to save money on minimum wage which I realise is so unbelievably foolish and inconsiderate to the train services and I feel deeply ashamed of myself.

Since being stopped at Blackfriars I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR, and I am truly appalled at my behaviour and how I have taken the railways for granted in such a way and have had sleepless nights thinking about how irresponsible I have been.

I cannot express how much I apologise for this and since then I have been paying for the correct fares and using my correct railcard, and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I have also read that buying an oyster card is the most productive way to travel around London so I will buy one from the station next time I am there.

I would be extremely grateful if you would consider the opportunity for me to pay a fine for my outstanding fares to resolve this out of court if this is possible, alongside any administrative costs to deal with this matter.

Once again I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I can guarantee you I have learnt my lesson and will not get on a train ever again without the correct ticket.

Yours Sincerely,

 

[John R]

I have been researching the impact my actions have on GTR

A personal opinion, but this sounds a bit trite. I mean, in reality, what research have you done - it's blindingly obvious that not paying the correct fare deprives the railways of income.

so I will buy one from the station next time I am there

So you've been paying the correct fare since you were stopped, but haven't yet taken the trouble to buy an Oyster card, despite presumably having had numerous opportunities to do so. It just sounds a bit false to me - saying what you think they want to say.

 

[sillygirlfines]

Just thought I’d let you all know that this has now been resolved and a settlement paid. I sent the most recent edit of my letter and they were surprisingly empathetic to my wrongdoings. They appreciated my cooperation and the case is closed.

Thanks to everyone who settled my nerves the last few weeks. What you guys do is really great!

I obviously know what i have done and many others have done is awful and i can safely say that i will never do this ever again - but most people aren’t doing this maliciously, they are just trying to get by on the little they have. I know it still isn’t an excuse and many people do pay right and still struggle, but I hope you know what I mean.

You guys putting aside your personal opinions to help people on this forum is a really nice side of the internet I didn’t know existed!

I doubt you will see me again, but thanks again

 

[tonycockram]

Another great result! Well done!
Any indication of the amount of settlement? This is useful to the pros when advising on similar cases, even though as we know all cases are different!

 

[sillygirlfines]

Another great result! Well done!
Any indication of the amount of settlement? This is useful to the pros when advising on similar cases, even though as we know all cases are different!

It was more than I expected as they went really far back in to my travel history and found that over the last 5 years there were two occasions where my railcard had expired and I didn’t get another one straight away which amounted to like 6 months without a valid railcard. So I had to also pay those fares too.

So just an FYI for future GTR inspections they are digging deep if they suspect anything! However the more cooperative you are, the nicer they are and a really quick turnaround. Really happy to put this all behind me now.