North Downs Line upgarde works - some questions

[infobleep]

They have now finished the two week closure of the North Downs Line between Guikdford and Reigate.

I have read that there will be less closures requires in future, as it will be more reliable. That is to be welcomed. This will be once all the level crossings go live in October, of course, as they will need closures to finish those.

Network Rail warned that further weekend closures will be required to fully install the crossings, which will be operational in October 2025

Surrey: Level crossings to close as part of rail upgrades

Network Rail warned that further weekend closures will be required to fully install the crossings.

www.bbc.com

I was wondering, have any of the signals been moved as part of the works and have any additional signals been added or are such things not required?

Has any of the communications infrastructure been improved?

Finally are there more timing points compared to before. This could aid departure and arrival screens to see where trains are.

I am aware of the bridge works and the works near Gomshall.

As an aside, the 16:21 Reading to Gatwick Airport was 7 minutes late by the time it got to Redhill. This caused it to miss its platform slot at Redhill as a Tonbridge train had to arrive first onto platform 1A or it would be in the way of our departure from platform 1B. We should have departed before the Tonbridge train arrived. As we didn't, that was able to arrive a minute early.

So the train departed Redhill 10 minutes late, which caused the 17:52 to Reigate to be delayed and the 17:57 to Gatwick Airport to be delayed.

I don't know if these delays were infrastructure related and/or passenger. If it was infrastructure, hopefully by later in the year, things will have improved.

 

[Bald Rick]

As an aside, the 16:21 Reading to Gatwick Airport was 7 minutes late by the time it got to Redhill. This caused it to miss its platform slot at Redhill as a Tonbridge train had to arrive first onto platform 1A or it would be in the way of our departure from platform 1B. We should have departed before the Tonbridge train arrived. As we didn't, that was able to arrive a minute early.

So the train departed Redhill 10 minutes late, which caused the 17:52 to Reigate to be delayed and the 17:57 to Gatwick Airport to be delayed.

I don't know if these delays were infrastructure related and/or passenger. If it was infrastructure, hopefully by later in the year, things will have improved.

Looking at it, the train lost time progressively through the journey, being overtime at many stations or in betwen, which suggests overcrowding (or other station issues) extending dwell times, or a unit on low power, or a driver not driving to what the timetable requires.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Looking at it, the train lost time progressively through the journey, being overtime at many stations or in betwen, which suggests overcrowding (or other station issues) extending dwell times, or a unit on low power, or a driver not driving to what the timetable requires.

It was also a 2-car on a 3-car diagram in the evening peak which would not have helped. Reading only has 10 3-car 165s for 10 diagrams at present, so short forming on Basingstoke or North Downs diagrams is common.

 

[AeM]

If only the Tri-mode 769s had been put into service to give more passenger capacity. There's nothing worse than a full platform at Reading trying to get onto a 2 car train.......!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Came back across NDL from Reading this afternoon and have to say that there isn't a lot to show for a 16 day closure. The bridge over the Wey has its new wheeltimbers and has been rerailed with gathering rails installed. That was a tricky job and best done in one go rather than doing it in piecemeal fashion but five days should have been sufficient with 24/7 working.There are new signals erected between Dorking West and Shalford but not commissioned and new kit has appeared around the level crossings but existing barriers are still in place. They are renewing the troughing route although not sure why existing one is completely usable. They've done some soil nailing about a mile West of Gomshall. Much of this could have been done in normal possessions. Im not against blockades but given the longer periods of uninterrupted working the reward should be a decent period then with any further possessions but the NDL is being blocked at weekends still for months. This Sunday (23/2), then Sat/Sun (8-9/3), then Sun 13 and 27th April. Thats as far as GWR have published so lets see how many more appear. They also had extended access last year which could have been used to do much of the work I've observed..

 

[infobleep]

It was also a 2-car on a 3-car diagram in the evening peak which would not have helped. Reading only has 10 3-car 165s for 10 diagrams at present, so short forming on Basingstoke or North Downs diagrams is common.

That explains why it was busy and further down the platform than usual. I didn't notice it was only 2 cars and there wasn't any announcemts about it being short formed.

However, I am interested in the other points, which I was going to raise anyway. This just happened to occur at the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2025 ==

Came back across NDL from Reading this afternoon and have to say that there isn't a lot to show for a 16 day closure. The bridge over the Wey has its new wheeltimbers and has been rerailed with gathering rails installed. That was a tricky job and best done in one go rather than doing it in piecemeal fashion but five days should have been sufficient with 24/7 working.There are new signals erected between Dorking West and Shalford but not commissioned and new kit has appeared around the level crossings but existing barriers are still in place. They are renewing the troughing route although not sure why existing one is completely usable. They've done some soil nailing about a mile West of Gomshall. Much of this could have been done in normal possessions. Im not against blockades but given the longer periods of uninterrupted working the reward should be a decent period then with any further possessions but the NDL is being blocked at weekends still for months. This Sunday (23/2), then Sat/Sun (8-9/3), then Sun 13 and 27th April. Thats as far as GWR have published so lets see how many more appear. They also had extended access last year which could have been used to do much of the work I've observed..

I hadn't realised the new signalling wasn't commissioned yet but may be it makes sense if the level crossings are not.

They did say the level crossings will be completed in October, so I think it's unfair to complain to much about an increase in closures before then, as the railway can't be more reliable until the stuff goes live, although I'm sure what has been completed so far will help. Just that it won't reduce the engineering works processions just yet.

It's only another 7 months, all being well.

I don't know if much work needs to be done west of Guildford for future reliablity or whether that has had work done, making it more reliable already. Obviously, any unreliability west of Gulidford can impact on trains running east of Guildford. Less so for planned engineering works, depending on the length of closure west of Guildford.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That explains why it was busy and further down the platform than usual. I didn't notice it was only 2 cars and there wasn't any announcemts about it being short formed.

However, I am interested in the other points, which I was going to raise anyway. This just happened to occur at the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2025 ==


I hadn't realised the new signalling wasn't commissioned yet but may be it makes sense if the level crossings are not.

Its replacement signals there is no change to the signalling on the line and thus headways will remain as is.

They did say the level crossings will be completed in October, so I think it's unfair to complain to much about an increase in closures before then, as the railway can't be more reliable until the stuff goes live, although I'm sure what has been completed so far will help. Just that it won't reduce the engineering works processions just yet.

Sorry but the point of blockades is to blitz work and as a result of uninterrupted working you get significantly improved productivity over short midweek nights and even 27hr Sunday possessions.

It's only another 7 months, all being well.

I don't know if much work needs to be done west of Guildford for future reliablity or whether that has had work done, making it more reliable already. Obviously, any unreliability west of Gulidford can impact on trains running east of Guildford. Less so for planned engineering works, depending on the length of closure west of Guildford.

Its all been resignalled now West of Guildford.

 

[infobleep]

Its replacement signals there is no change to the signalling on the line and thus headways will remain as is.

Sorry but the point of blockades is to blitz work and as a result of uninterrupted working you get significantly improved productivity over short midweek nights and even 27hr Sunday possessions.

Its all been resignalled now West of Guildford.

So in other words there will likely be Sunday processions in similar amounts to now but less Saturday ones.

 

[louis97]

Its replacement signals there is no change to the signalling on the line and thus headways will remain as is.

The signalling is changing as part of the level crossing upgrades, between Gomshall and Shalford it will deliver an improvement in the headway. As an example, at present it is only possible to have one train between Chilworth and Gomshall in each direction, this will increase to allow multiple trains between the two. The Timetable Planning Rules have been updated to take this into account in the appropriately dated documents.

 

[infobleep]

The signalling is changing as part of the level crossing upgrades, between Gomshall and Shalford it will deliver an improvement in the headway. As an example, at present it is only possible to have one train between Chilworth and Gomshall in each direction, this will increase to allow multiple trains between the two. The Timetable Planning Rules have been updated to take this into account in the appropriately dated documents.

Thanks. I was kind of hoping this might be the case but I couldn't be sure.

 

[Starmill]

A longer closure may also be the only way to dovetail the railway closures with the highway ones, which is usually what's needed for a large new crossing from scratch. Unfortunately any road other than the most minor track can't just be closed for a day whenever is convenient.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The signalling is changing as part of the level crossing upgrades, between Gomshall and Shalford it will deliver an improvement in the headway. As an example, at present it is only possible to have one train between Chilworth and Gomshall in each direction, this will increase to allow multiple trains between the two. The Timetable Planning Rules have been updated to take this into account in the appropriately dated documents.

OK thanks for clarifying that but as no change back towards Reigate wont help overall route headway though?

 

[Meerkat]

Are Chilworth and Tangley LCs to be protected by the same signals or will there be ones between the two?

 

[paul1609]

The signalling is changing as part of the level crossing upgrades, between Gomshall and Shalford it will deliver an improvement in the headway. As an example, at present it is only possible to have one train between Chilworth and Gomshall in each direction, this will increase to allow multiple trains between the two. The Timetable Planning Rules have been updated to take this into account in the appropriately dated documents.

Chilworth and Gomshall Stations are only 3 miles 74 chains apart. How many trains are likely to be in that section at one time?

 

[louis97]

Chilworth and Gomshall Stations are only 3 miles 74 chains apart. How many trains are likely to be in that section at one time?

If everything is on time, and there isn't any additional non GWR trains running, it is unlikely to be more than one at a time. Potential performance benefits during disruption however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==

Are Chilworth and Tangley LCs to be protected by the same signals or will there be ones between the two?

In the down direction (towards Guildford) one signal protects them both. In the up direction (towards Redhill) they each have a protecting signal.

 

[Meerkat]

In the down direction (towards Guildford) one signal protects them both. In the up direction (towards Redhill) they each have a protecting signal.

I hope that’s at the west end of the platform! Even so that’s going to make the barriers come down pretty early (on a busy road) as a stopping train chugs slowly away.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If everything is on time, and there isn't any additional non GWR trains running, it is unlikely to be more than one at a time. Potential performance benefits during disruption however.

Anytime there is late running trains get turned at Redhill to keep the service even. I suspect this scheme was designed when it was going to be three trains per hour which would have made them more useful.

 

[louis97]

I hope that’s at the west end of the platform! Even so that’s going to make the barriers come down pretty early (on a busy road) as a stopping train chugs slowly away.

Yes it is, same location as where the signal is now.

 

[DelW]

I hope that’s at the west end of the platform! Even so that’s going to make the barriers come down pretty early (on a busy road) as a stopping train chugs slowly away.

When I used to commute along the A248 a few years ago, it was noticeable that the full barriers near the station went down well before the automatic half barriers on the main road crossing did, even when the train was coming from the Guildford direction (so reaching the AHB crossing first). So it seems likely that road delays on the A248 will increase considerably.

Anytime there is late running trains get turned at Redhill to keep the service even. I suspect this scheme was designed when it was going to be three trains per hour which would have made them more useful.

It does seem very unlikely that we'll see any increase in North Downs services for a good many years to come. IIRC under the now abandoned 3tph scheme a fast train would have overtaken a stopper at Guildford, so they'd have been running relatively close together around Chilworth.

 

[infobleep]

If everything is on time, and there isn't any additional non GWR trains running, it is unlikely to be more than one at a time. Potential performance benefits during disruption however.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Feb 2025 ==


In the down direction (towards Guildford) one signal protects them both. In the up direction (towards Redhill) they each have a protecting signal.

What is the reason there is just one single in one direction but two in the other?

Anytime there is late running trains get turned at Redhill to keep the service even. I suspect this scheme was designed when it was going to be three trains per hour which would have made them more useful.

Whilst that use to be the case, I find more frequently now they don't get turned at Redhill.

So now we have two trains an hour to Gatwick Airport, most hours, they turn the trains early less often and when we only had one train an hour to Gatwick Airport they turned them early more often during disruption.

 

[zoneking]

This is all academic as the service is down to a very poor level with multiple cancellations due to trains needing repairs.

 

[louis97]

What is the reason there is just one single in one direction but two in the other?

It will be because of the location of Chilworth station, Chilworth station barriers will come down later for a stopping train but you won't be able to have that if you have a signal for each. An alternative would be using four aspect signalling, but that would have increased the cost for limited benefit given how close together they are.

With the planned 3 aspect signalling if you have a signal for each in that direction the signal for Chilworth would have to be the other side of the station as it would be too close to a signal protecting Tangley. This would mean the down time at Chilworth would significantly increase for a stopping train in that direction.

 

[infobleep]

It will be because of the location of Chilworth station, Chilworth station barriers will come down later for a stopping train but you won't be able to have that if you have a signal for each. An alternative would be using four aspect signalling, but that would have increased the cost for limited benefit given how close together they are.

With the planned 3 aspect signalling if you have a signal for each in that direction the signal for Chilworth would have to be the other side of the station as it would be too close to a signal protecting Tangley. This would mean the down time at Chilworth would significantly increase for a stopping train in that direction.

Thanks for the info. I find it interesting.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The signalling is changing as part of the level crossing upgrades, between Gomshall and Shalford it will deliver an improvement in the headway. As an example, at present it is only possible to have one train between Chilworth and Gomshall in each direction, this will increase to allow multiple trains between the two. The Timetable Planning Rules have been updated to take this into account in the appropriately dated documents.

This is technically true but the change to the planning headways is incredibly marginal. For all intents and purposes the capacity of the route remains unchanged.

 

[infobleep]

This is technically true but the change to the planning headways is incredibly marginal. For all intents and purposes the capacity of the route remains unchanged.

Do is it only useful during disruption or of no use at all in your opinion?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Do is it only useful during disruption or of no use at all in your opinion?

There may be a marginal gain depending on the circumstance but I doubt it will make any real difference.

 

[infobleep]

I notice for today's engineering works there is only 1 bus an hour to Redhill stopping everywhere, as opposed to the usual 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport.

I assume they couldn't find any bus company who wanted to run direct buses from Guildford to Gatwick Airport, unlike during the two week blockade.

It's the same again on the 9 March too and 13 April.

I assume all the works are related to the level crossing works. I've not checked beyond 13 April and I assume the works are only on Sunday's, based on what I've read on here, so I didn't check the Saturday's.

 

[DelW]

I notice for today's engineering works there is only 1 bus an hour to Redhill stopping everywhere, as opposed to the usual 2 trains an hour to Gatwick Airport.

I assume they couldn't find any bus company who wanted to run direct buses from Guildford to Gatwick Airport, unlike during the two week blockade.

It's the same again on the 9 March too and 13 April.

I'd expect that a lot of the through traffic from west of Reading (and Reading area itself) to Gatwick would switch to travelling via London. So the NDL RRBs are only likely to be carrying local passengers not the usual overhead traffic.

 

[infobleep]

I'd expect that a lot of the through traffic from west of Reading (and Reading area itself) to Gatwick would switch to travelling via London. So the NDL RRBs are only likely to be carrying local passengers not the usual overhead traffic.

If that is the case why did they run direct Guildford to Gatwick Airport services during the last 2 week blockade.

Or is it only on Sundays people switch to travelling via London?

 

[Class 170101]

If that is the case why did they run direct Guildford to Gatwick Airport services during the last 2 week blockade.

Or is it only on Sundays people switch to travelling via London?

I would hazard a guess its the way NR compensate GW for the disruption of the engineering access. GW get their money back for the blockade but not neccessarily the Sunday only / weekend only closures.