Travel incident report - expired railcard 9 previous journeys

[hellothrow]

Hi all

I was stopped today my northern to check my railcard however this expired last week

I’m quite worried about this as I never noticed and as I wasn’t approached by any other train staff in my journeys in the last week I hadn’t noticed the rail card expired

As I got a new phone in December, I didn’t have the railcard app on my new phone and I was struggling to load it however I was adamant I had a valid railcard, he logged an incident report and told me I would need to send them proof of my valid railcard. Upon checking this later I now know this has expired and it was a stupid mistake on my behalf

I’ve contacted northern who advised there’s no one I can contact to rectify the fact he logged that I did believe I had a valid railcard however it is in fact expired as it’s all done very officially

He did mention he would email the DRPU team for me and I am about to send them an email myself just for clarity but he did mention realistically there’s a back log and I won’t hear anything such as a decision for over a month (I wasn’t given any written ticket this morning, nor have I received any correspondence yet)

Does anyone know what to expect? I’m happy to pay the fine if that’s all it is but I want to put my mind at ease and know I’m not being sent to court

Any words are appreciated (even if it’s just facing the reality of my mistake) I suffer from chronic anxiety so this is making me spiral quite a lot

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of issues like this. What happens next is that Northern will write to you in the next few weeks. The letter will use quite threatening language and say that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting. The letter will ask you for your version of events and is your opportunity to give any mitigating circumstances you want Northern to take into account when they decide how to proceed.

I suggest a short, concise reply that mentions:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Northern are normally prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. Expect to have to pay the cost of the outstanding fare at the full Anytime rate with no credit given on the occasions you travelled without a railcard. In addition you will have to pay an admin fee, typically around £150.

If you post a copy of Northern's letter in this thread along with youir draft reply forum members will be happy to proof read it for you. Do redact any personal details before uploading.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all

I was stopped today my northern to check my railcard however this expired on 14th January

I’m quite worried about this as I never noticed and as I wasn’t approached by any other train staff in my journeys in the last week I hadn’t noticed the rail card expired

I have made 9 journeys in the last week as train is my most used method of transport

As I got a new phone in December, I didn’t have the railcard app on my new phone and I was struggling to load it however I was adamant I had a valid railcard, he logged an incident report and told me I would need to send them proof of my valid railcard. Upon checking this later I now know this has expired and it was a stupid mistake on my behalf

I’ve contacted northern who advised there’s no one I can contact to rectify the fact he logged that I did believe I had a valid railcard however it is in fact expired as it’s all done very officially

He did mention he would email the DRPU team for me and I am about to send them an email myself just for clarity but he did mention realistically there’s a back log and I won’t hear anything such as a decision for over a month (I wasn’t given any written ticket this morning, nor have I received any correspondence yet)

Does anyone know what to expect? I’m happy to pay the fine if that’s all it is but I want to put my mind at ease and know I’m not being sent to court

Any words are appreciated (even if it’s just facing the reality of my mistake) I suffer from chronic anxiety so this is making me spiral quite a lot

You need to wait to hear from them really. You probably won’t get a fine as such but more likely a request to pay for new undiscounted tickets for the trips concerned. Plus an admin fee.

Make sure you can access your railcard so you can prove expiry date.

Where were the 9 journeys to and from? Work out the full price fares for those as that will give you an idea of the sum they may be seeking.

 

[hellothrow]

@WesternLancer @Hadders thanks for your response

Do you think it’s worth contacting the DRPU ahead of receiving the letter to see if I can clarify that I was under the impression that it was valid, and I am now aware it wasn’t? I am sick losing sleep over this

As I previously mentioned, I already contacted northern and the guy on the phone mentioned he would raise a case but I would also like this to be put in my own words. Although I have seen other posts in this forum advising against this in case of incriminating yourself further although not sure if this will apply to my situation too

Is there a chance they might just jump to a summons without any further contact? Just would like to be prepared for what I can expect

The total full fare for the journeys would’ve been less than 100 as they were relatively small trips (mainly to work)

 

[tixy]

Do you think it’s worth contacting the DRPU ahead of receiving the letter to see if I can clarify that I was under the impression that it was valid, and I am now aware it wasn’t? I am sick losing sleep over this

I would advise simply waiting for northern to write. I understand that the thought of prosecution can be daunting but as @Hadders has said, they usually settle out of court with a well thought reply to their letter.

it is rare for them to jump straight to a summons without allowing for your chance of an explanation first, so I wouldn’t worry here.

Once you get the letter (it usually takes 2-3 weeks), please post it here (personal details redacted), along with your reply and we can help with proof reading/tweaking to get the best result.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

You don't mention whether you've renewed your railcard but if you have, that would be something favourable to tell Northern when they contact you.

 

[WesternLancer]

@WesternLancer @Hadders thanks for your response

Do you think it’s worth contacting the DRPU ahead of receiving the letter to see if I can clarify that I was under the impression that it was valid, and I am now aware it wasn’t? I am sick losing sleep over this

As I previously mentioned, I already contacted northern and the guy on the phone mentioned he would raise a case but I would also like this to be put in my own words. Although I have seen other posts in this forum advising against this in case of incriminating yourself further although not sure if this will apply to my situation too

Is there a chance they might just jump to a summons without any further contact? Just would like to be prepared for what I can expect

The total full fare for the journeys would’ve been less than 100 as they were relatively small trips (mainly to work)

No. I don’t think it’s worth doing this.

They get hundreds of these (it’s very regular on this forum too) and they need to set up your case on the system they have. It just confuses their admin by writing in before they have done this.

I know it’s stressful but best just to wait. I assume they took your address correctly and you’re not soon going to move house.

It would be very unlikely for them to go straight to prosecution. They would rather settle than prosecute as this is better for the railway financially.

Good that these are low value tickets as repayment will be more affordable for you.

I would buy a new railcard or season ticket now if you’ve not already done so. It’s something practical you can say to them you’ve done to resolve the genuine error you made.

 

[Hadders]

Do not contact Northern ahead of them writing to you. This is because you don't know what their letter is going to ask you and you don't want to inadvertently incriminate yourself.

Also, unless you have a case reference number Northern won't be able to match up anything you send to them with your case. While I understand you want to get this dealt with swiftly unfortunately these things do take a time to be dealt with. Northern's DPRU is a very small team and they deal with hundreds of cases at any one time. I know it's easy to say but try and put the incident to the back of your mind and get on with things, come back here when Northern's letter arrives and we can go from there.

 

[hellothrow]

Do not contact Northern ahead of them writing to you. This is because you don't know what their letter is going to ask you and you don't want to inadvertently incriminate yourself.

Also, unless you have a case reference number Northern won't be able to match up anything you send to them with your case. While I understand you want to get this dealt with swiftly unfortunately these things do take a time to be dealt with. Northern's DPRU is a very small team and they deal with hundreds of cases at any one time. I know it's easy to say but try and put the incident to the back of your mind and get on with things, come back here when Northern's letter arrives and we can go from there.

I already phoned them last night and they took my name and details over the phone prior to posting here :’( I just said I didnt realise it was expired and wanted to try be honest, I had been so adamant with the guard that I did have one only to realise later it was expired

the guard I spoke to in the morning who raised the incident report told me they’d write me for a copy of my valid railcard, when I phoned later in the evening I just wanted to make it clear I wasn’t trying to be deceitful as I have now renewed that and would rather it be settled out of court

Oh well I guess i will have to wait and see. Just praying now that my honesty and panic doesn’t get held against me in this case

 

[Haywain]

I already phoned them last night and they took my name and details over the phone prior to posting here :’( I just said I didnt realise it was expired and wanted to try be honest, I had been so adamant with the guard that I did have one only to realise later it was expired

the guard I spoke to in the morning who raised the incident report told me they’d write me for a copy of my valid railcard, when I phoned later in the evening I just wanted to make it clear I wasn’t trying to be deceitful as I have now renewed that and would rather it be settled out of court

Oh well I guess i will have to wait and see. Just praying now that my honesty and panic doesn’t get held against me in this case

In which case post #2 is now relevant.

 

[Titfield]

Just praying now that my honesty and panic doesn’t get held against me in this case

I doubt it will.

As @Hadders has explained the two principle reasons for not contacting them are:
1) Your communication may not get "married" to the file they will be creating.
2) You may have referred to other events which they may not otherwise have been aware of or would have raised.

Most TOCS now seem to look for other events which require explanation so the idea of mentioning something they were not aware of is less likely than it once was.

 

[Hadders]

I already phoned them last night and they took my name and details over the phone prior to posting here :’( I just said I didnt realise it was expired and wanted to try be honest, I had been so adamant with the guard that I did have one only to realise later it was expired

the guard I spoke to in the morning who raised the incident report told me they’d write me for a copy of my valid railcard, when I phoned later in the evening I just wanted to make it clear I wasn’t trying to be deceitful as I have now renewed that and would rather it be settled out of court

Oh well I guess i will have to wait and see. Just praying now that my honesty and panic doesn’t get held against me in this case

Who exactly did you phone?

The DRPU? If so I'm surprised they actually spoke to you and didn't just tell you to wait for the letter.
If it was Northern's customer services department then won't really be able to help. I'd be very surprised if they even pass anything on the DRPU.

 

[hellothrow]

In which case post #2 is now relevant.

As in they’ll just send a letter asking for my side of events?

Thank you for the reassurance everyone, I suffer from overthinking/anxiety so barely slept the other night at this point as long as I have a chance to settle it out of court I will be grateful and pay whatever they ask.

Never travelled without a railcard prior to this nor to my knowledge have I ever made any incorrect journeys, I don’t like conflict at all so never something I would do just a genuine mistake.

I made my return journey with a full priced ticket but have since renewed my railcard

@Hadders I spoke to a guy from customer services from Northern, just said I told them I had a railcard as they said they would just ask me to show a valid one in the post but I realised it was expired so just wanted to clear it up for my peace of mind so they didn’t think I was being deceitful later, just a genuine human error - the man from customer services gave me a case number reference and said he’d contacted the DRPU on my behalf I was clearly very distressed on the phone about it and just said I’d rather it be settled before it gets to court and then at least I have some sort of record of trying to rectify the situation

 

[Hadders]

@Hadders I spoke to a guy from customer services from Northern, just said I told them I had a railcard as they said they would just ask me to show a valid one in the post but I realised it was expired so just wanted to clear it up for my peace of mind so they didn’t think I was being deceitful later, just a genuine human error - the man from customer services gave me a case number reference and said he’d contacted the DRPU on my behalf I was clearly very distressed on the phone about it and just said I’d rather it be settled before it gets to court and then at least I have some sort of record of trying to rectify the situation

Thanks for confirming. Contacting customer services, although well intentioned, really isn't going to change what happens which I expect to be as I indicated in Post #2 upthread.

Northern deal with hundreds, if not thousands, of these sort of cases at any one time and they will get to your case eventually. There really isn't anything you can do in the meantime, I'm afraid.

 

[hellothrow]

@Hadders @WesternLancer hey guys + anyone else who may be able to help

I received the letter today - any advice on how to go about this?

 

[WesternLancer]

@Hadders @WesternLancer hey guys + anyone else who may be able to help

I received the letter today - any advice on how to go about this?

Ok. Good that you have received it and can move things along.

See the advice in post 2 for how to draft a response. Write something along those lines and keep it focussed and not over long.

Make it clear that the expiry if the railcard was an oversight and there was no intention to evade any fares.

Post your draft up here for checking before you send it.

 

[hellothrow]

Ok. Good that you have received it and can move things along.

See the advice in post 2 for how to draft a response. Write something along those lines and keep it focussed and not over long.

Make it clear that the expiry if the railcard was an oversight and there was no intention to evade any fares.

Post your draft up here for checking before you send it.

Dear Revenue Enforcement Delivery Manager,

When I was asked to show my railcard at the station gates, I was unable to provide this. I mentioned to the guard that I had 2 railcards with overlapping expiry dates as I purchased one for myself then was later eligible for an offer code for another. I recently got a new phone and did not have my digital railcard loaded onto my new phone. As my railcard wasn’t showing attached to the ticket on trainline, I downloaded the railcard app and attempted to sign in multiple times with the guard however it just kept prompting me to buy a new railcard, I was unable to see a log of any previous railcards or expiry dates on the app. As I was running late and struggling to navigate the app under pressure, the guard told me I could provide evidence of my railcard when contacted by mail here, which I agreed to. Under pressure in the moment, I failed to realise that both of these railcards were out of date which is why the app would not load them. This was a genuine oversight and in no way was I trying to avoid paying the full price fare.

I understand the gravity of travelling without being able to provide a valid railcard and I want to be fully co-operative and proactive in resolving this matter. I understand the severity and impact that not paying the correct fare has on train companies and do not wish to be a contributor to this.

I am truly sorry for my mistake and it was never my intention to travel without a valid railcard. This was a complete lapse of organisation on my behalf. I travelled home by paying the full price fare and then renewed my railcard the same evening. I have also set a reminder in my calendar for a week before my new card’s expiry so that I do not forget to renew my railcard in future. I have attached proof of my expired railcards plus my new valid railcard to this letter.

I would be sincerely grateful if you would allow me the opportunity to settle this matter without court action and I offer to pay any costs that Northern have incurred due to my lack of regard. I accept full responsibility and offer my complete co-operation in resolving this.

Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

 

[WesternLancer]

Dear Revenue Enforcement Delivery Manager,

When I was asked to show my railcard at the station gates, I was unable to provide this. I mentioned to the guard that I had 2 railcards with overlapping expiry dates as I purchased one for myself then was later eligible for an offer code for another. I recently got a new phone and did not have my digital railcard loaded onto my new phone. As my railcard wasn’t showing attached to the ticket on trainline, I downloaded the railcard app and attempted to sign in multiple times with the guard however it just kept prompting me to buy a new railcard, I was unable to see a log of any previous railcards or expiry dates on the app. As I was running late and struggling to navigate the app under pressure, the guard told me I could provide evidence of my railcard when contacted by mail here, which I agreed to. Under pressure in the moment, I failed to realise that both of these railcards were out of date which is why the app would not load them. This was a genuine oversight and in no way was I trying to avoid paying the full price fare.

I understand the gravity of travelling without being able to provide a valid railcard and I want to be fully co-operative and proactive in resolving this matter. I understand the severity and impact that not paying the correct fare has on train companies and do not wish to be a contributor to this.

I am truly sorry for my mistake and it was never my intention to travel without a valid railcard. This was a complete lapse of organisation on my behalf. I travelled home by paying the full price fare and then renewed my railcard the same evening. I have also set a reminder in my calendar for a week before my new card’s expiry so that I do not forget to renew my railcard in future. I have attached proof of my expired railcards plus my new valid railcard to this letter.

I would be sincerely grateful if you would allow me the opportunity to settle this matter without court action and I offer to pay any costs that Northern have incurred due to my lack of regard. I accept full responsibility and offer my complete co-operation in resolving this.

Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

Looks generally ok. Unless you are up against the deadline to respond I’d wait 24 hours to see what others think before sending it off however.

 

[AlterEgo]

Dear Revenue Enforcement Delivery Manager,

- add in a first sentence acknowledging the letter! (thank you for your letter of -date- etc!) When I was asked to show my railcard at the station gates, I was unable to provide this. I mentioned to the guard that I had 2 railcards with overlapping expiry dates as I purchased one for myself then was later eligible for an offer code for another. I recently got a new phone and did not have my digital railcard loaded onto my new phone. As my railcard wasn’t showing attached to the ticket on trainline, I downloaded the railcard app and attempted to sign in multiple times with the guard however it just kept prompting me to buy a new railcard, I was unable to see a log of any previous railcards or expiry dates on the app. As I was running late and struggling to navigate the app under pressure, the guard told me I could provide evidence of my railcard when contacted by mail here, which I agreed to. Under pressure in the moment, I failed to realise that both of these railcards were out of date which is why the app would not load them. They will not care about any of this, it's not relevant either. Northern just want their money.

This was a genuine oversight and in no way was I trying to avoid paying the full price fare.

I understand the gravity of travelling without being able to provide a valid railcard and I want to be fully co-operative and proactive in resolving this matter. I understand the severity and impact - makes no grammatical sense, just say "impact" that not paying the correct fare has on train companies and do not wish to be a contributor to this.

I am truly sorry for my mistake and it was never my intention to travel without a valid railcard. This was a complete lapse of organisation on my behalf. I travelled home by paying the full price fare and then renewed my railcard the same evening. I have also set a reminder in my calendar for a week before my new card’s expiry so that I do not forget to renew my railcard in future. I have attached proof of my expired railcards plus my new valid railcard to this letter.

I would be sincerely grateful if you would allow me the opportunity to settle this matter without court action and I offer to pay any costs that Northern have incurred due to my lack of regard. I accept full responsibility and offer my complete co-operation in resolving this.

Thank you for your consideration and understanding.

some amends