Could the Class 376s and some 377s be swapped?

[Class15]

Hi all.

So this post got me thinking:

In an ideal world the Networker fleet would have been replaced as one, with the 376s cascaded to Southern as 455 replacements.

Would it be possible to send the 376s to Southern, send some 377s to Southeastern for mainline services, therefore allowing the new SE stock to take over almost all* metro services on SE?

*there would still be the 707s

 

[bramling]

Hi all.

So this post got me thinking:



Would it be possible to send the 376s to Southern, send some 377s to Southeastern for mainline services, therefore allowing the new SE stock to take over almost all* metro services on SE?

*there would still be the 707s

Biggest problem would be DOO equipment. Either would need to be fitted to the 376s, or trackside equipment would be necessary. Either way it represents a significant cost.

Aside from that, it works on paper - ish.

 

[NSE]

Surely that would leave everything in the same situation? Just with SN having a new type of stock to train staff and fitters on? Yes, I know they’re Electrostar so lots of similar parts and cab layout etc, but giving the 376’s to Southern to receive the same amount of 377’s back is surely just robbing Peter to pay Paul, plus the aggro of clearing stock and training staff etc. Or if you’re talking about more numbers of 377, then that’ll just move the stock shortage problem to Southern.

Also, it does make me laugh that people keep seeming to mention small fleets of 377s or the 707’s coming over to SE to replace the Networkers. Am I missing something, because there are 120 odd 465’s in service and 30 466’s. That would require 100 or 377’s to come over. I fully understand the need to replace the Networkers but surely the only way to do this is with a total fleet replacement? I can see how bringing in the small amount of 377/1’s (isn’t it like 15 or so?) can remove them from a certain route. But it’s not going to replace the Networkers.


*edit* Having re-read it, are people talking about just removing the Networkers from mainline routes so the new fleet replaces the Networkers and 376 on Metro and Southern get the 376s, then push some 377s back in response so the 375s and the 377’s do all the mainline? Cause that argument makes more sense numbers wise.

 

[bramling]

Surely that would leave everything in the same situation? Just with SN having a new type of stock to train staff and fitters on? Yes, I know they’re Electrostar so lots of similar parts and cab layout etc, but giving the 376’s to Southern to receive the same amount of 377’s back is surely just robbing Peter to pay Paul, plus the aggro of clearing stock and training staff etc. Or if you’re talking about more numbers of 377, then that’ll just move the stock shortage problem to Southern.

Also, it does make me laugh that people keep seeming to mention small fleets of 377s or the 707’s coming over to SE to replace the Networkers. Am I missing something, because there are 120 odd 465’s in service and 30 466’s. That would require 100 or 377’s to come over. I fully understand the need to replace the Networkers but surely the only way to do this is with a total fleet replacement? I can see how bringing in the small amount of 377/1’s (isn’t it like 15 or so?) can remove them from a certain route. But it’s not going to replace the Networkers.


*edit* Having re-read it, are people talking about just removing the Networkers from mainline routes so the new fleet replaces the Networkers and 376 on Metro and Southern get the 376s, then push some 377s back in response so the 375s and the 377’s do all the mainline? Cause that argument makes more sense numbers wise.

I was more thinking of what might have been sensible pre-Covid and were the 707s not involved. Replace the 465/466/376 fleet with new, send the 376s to Southern to replace the 455s.

But yes in theory it would be possible to swap 376s for 377s and get rid of metro stock on the outer-suburban SE routes (Maidstone line and Tunbridge Wells), though I think this is largely being achieved anyway by the 387 cascade.

 

[NSE]

I was more thinking of what might have been sensible pre-Covid and were the 707s not involved. Replace the 465/466/376 fleet with new, send the 376s to Southern to replace the 455s.

But yes in theory it would be possible to swap 376s for 377s and get rid of metro stock on the outer-suburban SE routes (Maidstone line and Tunbridge Wells), though I think this is largely being achieved anyway by the 387 cascade.

Oh I agree that would have been sensible. I just keep reading all these plans that seem to be ‘send 30 377’s over to SE and a couple of spare other units lying around and that’ll be enough to get rid of the Networkers’. And it won’t be. There are a lot of Networkers to replace haha

 

[JonathanH]

Biggest problem would be DOO equipment. Either would need to be fitted to the 376s, or trackside equipment would be necessary. Either way it represents a significant cost.

Surely, if the 376s were to stay at Southeastern, the in-cab DOO equipment may need to be fitted anyway, as they would, in the most part, be operating routes where everything else has in-cab facilities. That would allow the on-platform DOO equipment to be decommissioned, just as it has been on the Southern network with the passing of 455s (and 319s).

Having re-read it, are people talking about just removing the Networkers from mainline routes so the new fleet replaces the Networkers and 376 on Metro and Southern get the 376s, then push some 377s back in response so the 375s and the 377’s do all the mainline? Cause that argument makes more sense numbers wise.

Yes, that is what this is about. Including the 376s in the total fleet replacement on the Metro allows them to go to Southern. Southern can either use 376s directly on their shortest Metro services or to enable conversion of either them, or other 377s, to battery operation to displace 171s elsewhere.

This post from 2016 talks about what is happening now with the fleets, including the 387s and move of 377s to Southeastern and the need to identify the 'independently powered EMU fleet' for Uckfield, which was elsewhere suggested to be the 376s heavily rebuilt - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oving-to-southern.107267/page-39#post-2647564

Taking diesel stock out of Selhurst would be a key part of making space for more rolling stock.

The idea of 376s to Southern has been speculated for nearly 10 years, although I think this particular post was pure rather than informed speculation - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-387.92831/page-66#post-2351792

 

[Mikey C]

Moving the 376s to Southern is an attractive "crayon" exercise, as
a) Southern don't have any Metro stock, having replace their remaining 455s with displaced 377s. As I mentioned on another thread, on Friday I was on a stopping service (London Bridge to East Croydon) operated by a double 377/3, a train with wide 4 abreast seats and more suited for longer distance services operating into Kent and Sussex
b) If Southeastern just replace the Networkers, they'll be stuck with 3 separate metro train classes, which would be ludicrous, so it's an appealing idea to move the 376s elsewhere to reduce this to 2, and Southern seems the only logical destination.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Moving the 376s to Southern is an attractive "crayon" exercise, as
a) Southern don't have any Metro stock, having replace their remaining 455s with displaced 377s. As I mentioned on another thread, on Friday I was on a stopping service (London Bridge to East Croydon) operated by a double 377/3, a train with wide 4 abreast seats and more suited for longer distance services operating into Kent and Sussex
b) If Southeastern just replace the Networkers, they'll be stuck with 3 separate metro train classes, which would be ludicrous, so it's an appealing idea to move the 376s elsewhere to reduce this to 2, and Southern seems the only logical destination.

Whilst it went down to the Coast over the weekend and had to contend with an Electrostar with 6 abreast seating…

 

[swt_passenger]

I was more thinking of what might have been sensible pre-Covid and were the 707s not involved. Replace the 465/466/376 fleet with new, send the 376s to Southern to replace the 455s.

Then your thread title should have been written in the past tense, and replies wouldn’t be looking at it from the present position (ie with 707s)…

“Could the Class 376s and some 377s have been swapped?”

But I don’t think swapping 376 for 377 achieves anything, they’re still basically Electrostar versions.

 

[Mikey C]

Then your thread title should have been written in the past tense, and replies wouldn’t be looking at it from the present position (ie with 707s)…

“Could the Class 376s and some 377s have been swapped?”

But I don’t think swapping 376 for 377 achieves anything, they’re still basically Electrostar versions.

The 376s and 377s are significantly different inside though, the former being a proper Metro train with wide aisles and large standing areas, something which Southern doesn't have for its inner London routes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The appearance of 376s on Epsom services would make me switch back to using SWR's currently inferior offering... while the 376s are, as described above, true Metro trains - they are certainly not fitted with a particularly ambient interior and the window provision is not impressive either.

 

[bramling]

Then your thread title should have been written in the past tense, and replies wouldn’t be looking at it from the present position (ie with 707s)…

“Could the Class 376s and some 377s have been swapped?”

But I don’t think swapping 376 for 377 achieves anything, they’re still basically Electrostar versions.

The only benefit would be that Southern metro gets some trains with a more inner-suburban layout. Whether this is strictly necessary is a matter for debate, as they seem to manage with the current stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The appearance of 376s on Epsom services would make me switch back to using SWR's currently inferior offering... while the 376s are, as described above, true Metro trains - they are certainly not fitted with a particularly ambient interior and the window provision is not impressive either.

I have to say I'd take any form of Electrostar over a knackered 455.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==

The 376s and 377s are significantly different inside though, the former being a proper Metro train with wide aisles and large standing areas, something which Southern doesn't have for its inner London routes.

But those 2x2 377s would then end up on Hayes, Woolwich, Sidcup, Gravesend, Sevenoaks and Bexleyheath services, which also need a proper Metro train with wide aisles and large standing areas.

If, as the thread suggests, the new Southeastern fleet is ordered of a quantity to replace only Networkers, those and the 707s wouldn't be able to operate all Metro services on their own. You'd get a bunch of entirely unsuitable 2x2 377s operating absolutely rammed Cannon Street stoppers.

 

[bramling]

I have to say I'd take any form of Electrostar over a knackered 455.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==


But those 2x2 377s would then end up on Hayes, Woolwich, Sidcup, Gravesend, Sevenoaks and Bexleyheath services, which also need a proper Metro train with wide aisles and large standing areas.

If, as the thread suggests, the new Southeastern fleet is ordered of a quantity to replace only Networkers, those and the 707s wouldn't be able to operate all Metro services on their own. You'd get a bunch of entirely unsuitable 2x2 377s operating absolutely rammed Cannon Street stoppers.

I don’t think anyone is advocating having 377s on inner-suburban services. What is being suggested is that 377s could take over all the remaining Networker-worked services to Tunbridge Wells and on the Maidstone route. Do any still run via Longfield?

That said, I reckon a 377 interior would just about work for Sevenoaks and maybe even Gravesend if they could be diagrammed to avoid the high peak, and especially if allowed 12-car working.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don’t think anyone is advocating having 377s on inner-suburban services. What is being suggested is that 377s could take over all the remaining Networker-worked services to Tunbridge Wells and on the Maidstone route. Do any still run via Longfield?

That said, I reckon a 377 interior would just about work for Sevenoaks and maybe even Gravesend if they could be diagrammed to avoid the high peak, and especially if allowed 12-car working.

The current 377 transfer from Southern will wipe out Networkers to Tunbridge and Maidstone.

 

[NSE]

I have to say I'd take any form of Electrostar over a knackered 455.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Feb 2025 ==


But those 2x2 377s would then end up on Hayes, Woolwich, Sidcup, Gravesend, Sevenoaks and Bexleyheath services, which also need a proper Metro train with wide aisles and large standing areas.

If, as the thread suggests, the new Southeastern fleet is ordered of a quantity to replace only Networkers, those and the 707s wouldn't be able to operate all Metro services on their own. You'd get a bunch of entirely unsuitable 2x2 377s operating absolutely rammed Cannon Street stoppers.

I agree that I’d take any form of Electrostar over a 455.

I don’t think I’d agree 2 x 377 is ‘entirely unsuitable’. I wouldn’t disagree that other stock is more suitable, the large dwell/vestibule areas of 376’s and 700/707’s are better than a 377, but SN use their 377’s on all sorts of metro workings and do so successfully everyday.

I don’t disagree I’d rather see Southern have a dedicated metro fleet and keep the 377’s for longer work. But the 377’s do Epsom Downs and the London Bridge rounders well enough and I can’t see it being any different on Dartford services.

 

[Mikey C]

I don’t think anyone is advocating having 377s on inner-suburban services. What is being suggested is that 377s could take over all the remaining Networker-worked services to Tunbridge Wells and on the Maidstone route. Do any still run via Longfield?

That said, I reckon a 377 interior would just about work for Sevenoaks and maybe even Gravesend if they could be diagrammed to avoid the high peak, and especially if allowed 12-car working.

Also services like Victoria to Gillingham.