What is going wrong at Avanti West Coast?

[Masbroughlad]

I've travelled from Stafford to London twice in the last week. What is wrong with Avanti West Coast?

My first journey was 2 x Evero sets. It was 40 late leaving Stafford - three problems with the train apparently, including coupling. It was absolutely freezing on board - no heating. We arrived 50+ late into Euston. Granted the extra delay was Network Rail.

Journey back on the Saturday night was awful. Crammed in like sardines onto a Pendolino.

This week, Southbound, I took London North Western. Punctual and 8 cars. Criticism here, I don't think the 3 + 2 seat arrangement trains should be used on the long distance trains. It was half 2+2, half 3+2. Real pity this route lost catering (and first class).

On the way back, Friday night, a two set Evero was diagrammed, one set turned up. No seat reservations due to this. Also it was a Wrexham service but cut to Chester. The staff seemed very disgruntled. Didn't seem to have been given any information. They were on tenterhooks as to whether it would even run.

The station staff at Stafford were really quite rude with people. The ones I witnessed.and encountered were far from customer focused. I was amongst others that they were very dismissive to and used lots of railway jargon.

The staff at Euston seemed resigned to things being bad. Would trains turn up? Would staff be available?

AWC seem to be cancelling, delaying, short-forming, terminating early, not very-customer service driven. My recent experiences of retail, station and on-board staff, have been poor attitude and destined to everything being bad.

Such a shame. I think the refurbed Pendolinos and the new trains are comfortable and look good. They just seem to be unreliable. Are staff not being treated well? Are they short-staffed? Fed up with sorting problems?

Did things deteriorate when Virgin lost the franchise? What about when HS2 got chopped? (It was HS2 and West Coast trains originally?)

 

[The Planner]

Did things deteriorate when Virgin lost the franchise? What about when HS2 got chopped? (It was HS2 and West Coast trains originally?)

West Coast Partnership still exists for when HS2 opens.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Truncated though.

 

[31160]

Could it be deliberate mismanagement to push peeps towards First groups new start up open access operation on the west coast, I'm sure it isn't that mind you

 

[side effect]

How about sauna type carriages. Their x page has 2-3 complaints daily over unbearable temperatures. This has been going on for over a year as I read the tweets each day, like a hobby.

 

[jfollows]

From the start, and based on reports here and elsewhere primarily admittedly, not from personal experience, the problem with Avanti is its management, some of whom used to work for Virgin of course, in two areas:

1. Lack of customer focus. The customer is not high in the company's priority list.
2. Antagonism and confrontation with its front-line staff. This also therefore feeds through as poor service.

There's been a step-change downwards in the customer experience with Avanti compared to Virgin, although the latter was overly praised by some as well.

But I don't think it's a well-run organisation and this feeds through into customer experiences in a way that Virgin would never have tolerated.

 

[philosopher]

How about sauna type carriages. Their x page has 2-3 complaints daily over unbearable temperatures. This has been going on for over a year as I read the tweets each day, like a hobby.

The class 390’s have in my experience been on the toasty side for several years now. Surely resolving this issue would for most of the year actually save Avanti money.

 

[dutchbedford]

The class 390’s have in my experience been on the toasty side for several years now. Surely resolving this issue would for most of the year actually save Avanti money.

They’ve been quite open about the HVAC renewal which is starting up at the moment.

 

[dk1]

They’ve been quite open about the HVAC renewal which is starting up at the moment.

That’s good to hear.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

How about sauna type carriages. Their x page has 2-3 complaints daily over unbearable temperatures. This has been going on for over a year as I read the tweets each day, like a hobby.

I was on the 18:53 Avanti departure from Euston yesterday evening - train was going to Manchester and was heavily loaded with passengers - alighting at Milton Keynes.

It was freezing on the train - girl in the seat opposite me had tried to snuggle down under her coat to keep warm - aircon seemed to be blowing out freezing cold air.

Maybe it would have warmed up later in the journey given the heat that would have been given off by all the passengers

As we set off the train manager said that were were the only train going north that evening - although I see that some later tarins did manage to leave Euston - and that we were very heavily loaded and that we "might have to run slower than usual because of the weight of all the passengers on the train" (or words to that effect). I've never heard an announcement like that before - how much does a fully loaded train affect its running?

 

[side effect]

That also seems to be a problem. Seems they can't get an in between temperature. You have to go prepared with either t-shirt or sleeping bag, infact I'd take a miniature pop up tent if on a journey to glc in case we're are off loaded late at night which saves booking an hotel.

 

[The Planner]

As we set off the train manager said that were were the only train going north that evening - although I see that some later tarins did manage to leave Euston - and that we were very heavily loaded and that we "might have to run slower than usual because of the weight of all the passengers on the train" (or words to that effect). I've never heard an announcement like that before - how much does a fully loaded train affect its running?

Computer says no basically. Too heavy no move in some cases.

 

[43066]

As we set off the train manager said that were were the only train going north that evening - although I see that some later tarins did manage to leave Euston - and that we were very heavily loaded and that we "might have to run slower than usual because of the weight of all the passengers on the train" (or words to that effect). I've never heard an announcement like that before - how much does a fully loaded train affect its running?

I gather this is due to the tilt mechanism being affected by crush loading, and the train potentially being unable to run at EPS speeds.

That isn’t a consideration on most type of stock, however trains can become too crowded to be worked safely.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

Thanks - I learn something new every day!

One final comment - as I, along with very many other people, started walking towards platform 14 once it came up on the screen I was thinking about the inevitable Avanti ticket checks at the bottom of the ramp. As we began to go down the ramp I could see the large crowd moving along the platform but to my surprise - no ticket checks! Was that maybe a pragmatic decision given the situation at Euston and the number of people trying to get onto the train or was LNWR ticket acceptance, at least to MKC, in operation so no need to check tickets at the point.

Anyway, no surprise that tickets weren't checked before I alighted at MKC given how heavily loaded the train was, but also the gateline was open at MKC so no ticket check on the journey at all.

 

[Skiddaw]

I was turfed off an AWC pendolino on my way home from Euston to Penrith one Sunday at Preston a year or so back on the basis that the train was overloaded. It was a bit like being back on the school bus- we were told in no uncertain terms that the train was going nowhere until some of us agreed to get off and anyone travelling to Oxenholme or Penrith should do everyone else a favour, get off and get on the train that was coming in immediately behind us. Being public spirited I duly got off (despite having paid for a SP upgrade). I wasn't best pleased when the AWC train that then rolled up (an Edinburgh service from Birmingham) was (a) much smaller and (b) alreadly jammed. We managed to squeeze on but I was literally pressed to the window in the vestibule all the way to Penrith. Never doing that again! Next time I'm staying put...

 

[Deepgreen]

The entire saga smacks of poor investment and poor morale. 390s (and any other trains in the UK to have air-conditioning) should have had durable kit installed from the start, as the business case for constant attention and then renewal, plus passenger complaints, must surely weigh in favour of 'right first time' installations. The tilt mechanism should also be able to cope with a heavily-loaded train without giving up. I would have hoped for a sensible engineering margin to allow for crush-loading (a very foreseeable event) which is exactly when you don't want the train to have to run slowly (or not at all) and compound the service problems that led to the crush loading!

As for staff attitudes, this is what happens when the service is so bad that passengers become habitually unhappy.

 

[chesterred16]

I travelled Chester to Euston on Thursday just gone, and return on Friday. Both ways was a 5-car Evero vice 10, no explanation given and no pre-boarding information given out to passengers (including me) with reservations in the 'missing' coaches. No cafe or shop on the way down due to no water being available for the staff to wash their hands. Train managers both ways very apologetic about the overcrowding, and to be fair both trains were 'on time' (see below).
I also noticed the Euston-Chester-North Wales Everos always seem to be a few minutes late, even when they're not disrupted - are they unable to keep to the Voyager times? Every one seems to be 4-8 mins late by journey's end.

 

[Deepgreen]

I gather this is due to the tilt mechanism being affected by crush loading, and the train potentially being unable to run at EPS speeds.

That isn’t a consideration on most type of stock, however trains can become too crowded to be worked safely.

It is a recent phenomenon for trains to be 'too crowded', and is yet another example of trains becoming ever more 'delicate' as they cram more and more computerised control onto them. It used to be the case that people squeezed on until asphyxiation set in, and the train just ran! It may be unpleasant on a crammed long-distance train, but it's better than stranding.

 

[43066]

It is a recent phenomenon for trains to be 'too crowded', and is yet another example of trains becoming ever more 'delicate' as they cram more and more computerised control onto them. It used to be the case that people squeezed on until asphyxiation set in, and the train just ran! It may be unpleasant on a crammed long-distance train, but it's better than stranding.

Possibly also because long distance trains have become shorter as passenger numbers have risen?

If loadings are too excessive there’s a possibility of people being physically unable to reach the exits when the train reaches their stop and a risk of alarms being pulled as a result. Then there’s the possibility of the driver or TM needing to walk through the train to reset alarms, access equipment cupboards, isolate brakes etc.

So there can come a point where the crew declare it unsafe to continue until some people disembark and/or ask for not to call orders. It’s rare but has happened on my route a few times, usually during ticket acceptance. I can see it getting more common in future, sadly.

 

[Tilting007]

I gather this is due to the tilt mechanism being affected by crush loading, and the train potentially being unable to run at EPS speeds.

That isn’t a consideration on most type of stock, however trains can become too crowded to be worked safely.

Correct. The train needs to reduce speed if overloaded.

 

[snookertam]

I was turfed off an AWC pendolino on my way home from Euston to Penrith one Sunday at Preston a year or so back on the basis that the train was overloaded. It was a bit like being back on the school bus- we were told in no uncertain terms that the train was going nowhere until some of us agreed to get off and anyone travelling to Oxenholme or Penrith should do everyone else a favour, get off and get on the train that was coming in immediately behind us. Being public spirited I duly got off (despite having paid for a SP upgrade). I wasn't best pleased when the AWC train that then rolled up (an Edinburgh service from Birmingham) was (a) much smaller and (b) alreadly jammed. We managed to squeeze on but I was literally pressed to the window in the vestibule all the way to Penrith. Never doing that again! Next time I'm staying put...

Im Surprised they go down this route. Easier way to do it is to no longer stop at certain stations, run express to Carlisle or something, that way the numbers are forced to go down. Then seek ticket acceptance with other operators (if available or feasible) if their train comes first.

 

[Skiddaw]

It wasn't one of my better AWC experiences I must say!

One poor lady had very restricted mobility and was really struggling to get onto the platform (and then to get on a train that was significantly more sardines than the one we'd got off). I was annoyed that none of the staff on Preston station offered her any assistance. We did what we could to help her but it was a poor show all around.

 

[gordonthemoron]

These days I almost always use LNR instead of Avanti for Milton Keynes to Euston, more space, more trains and clock face timetables

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

They’ve been quite open about the HVAC renewal which is starting up at the moment.

Hang on, did this not get done when they were all "refurbished" at great cost recently? Would it not have more sense to do it then even if it was a bit early in the cycle given the disruption it must cause?

I was turfed off an AWC pendolino on my way home from Euston to Penrith one Sunday at Preston a year or so back on the basis that the train was overloaded. It was a bit like being back on the school bus- we were told in no uncertain terms that the train was going nowhere until some of us agreed to get off and anyone travelling to Oxenholme or Penrith should do everyone else a favour, get off and get on the train that was coming in immediately behind us. Being public spirited I duly got off (despite having paid for a SP upgrade). I wasn't best pleased when the AWC train that then rolled up (an Edinburgh service from Birmingham) was (a) much smaller and (b) alreadly jammed. We managed to squeeze on but I was literally pressed to the window in the vestibule all the way to Penrith. Never doing that again! Next time I'm staying put...

After a particularly traumatic event on TPE, I'm afraid I consider it every person for themself on the trains now, and if this train goes where I want, I'm not getting off it to "help out" as I simply don't trust "the railway" to be able to deliver on any future trains/promises of onward travel.

It wasn't one of my better AWC experiences I must say!

One poor lady had very restricted mobility and was really struggling to get onto the platform (and then to get on a train that was significantly more sardines than the one we'd got off). I was annoyed that none of the staff on Preston station offered her any assistance. We did what we could to help her but it was a poor show all around.

I've found the staff at Preston to be particularly unhelpful, to be honest. Not actually unfriendly, but they definitely didn't care about the passengers who got in the way of playing with their model railway.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

It is a recent phenomenon for trains to be 'too crowded', and is yet another example of trains becoming ever more 'delicate' as they cram more and more computerised control onto them. It used to be the case that people squeezed on until asphyxiation set in, and the train just ran! It may be unpleasant on a crammed long-distance train, but it's better than stranding.

Not necessarily a new thing. I've heard historical reports of First Generation DMUs that, if they got too crush loaded, the bodyshell would deform and the (slam) doors physically couldn't close until some people got off!

 

[Jimini]

I remember being on a crush loaded HST at Paddington (P1) about 20 years ago in the evening peak, and the guard kept saying over the tannoy that the train was too heavy to leave and urging Reading commuters to get off and grab an alternative service as the train couldn’t leave with the volume of passengers onboard.

I’ll defer to the experts on whether HSTs had some sort of weight restriction / way of measuring it, or whether the guard was embellishing somewhat?

 

[AJDesiro]

These days I almost always use LNR instead of Avanti for Milton Keynes to Euston, more space, more trains and clock face timetables

In all fairness, the Avanti timetable is also clock-face.

 

[trainophile]

Im Surprised they go down this route. Easier way to do it is to no longer stop at certain stations, run express to Carlisle or something, that way the numbers are forced to go down. Then seek ticket acceptance with other operators (if available or feasible) if their train comes first.

Hard luck if you wanted to get off at one of the missed stops.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hard luck if you wanted to get off at one of the missed stops.

Nowadays something of a surprise when Avanti is running what might be considered a satisfactory (on time) train service beyond Preston. Too often when there are issues on the WCML, every stop North of there simply doesn't get served. Not good enough!

 

[Ghostbus]

I'm reminded of the old adage, if you come for the King, you better not miss.

The incoming Labour government were absolutely certain of their desire and factual case for stripping AWC of their contract. And then it didn't happen.

So now the King can now sit back and get fat, while the peasants starve.

Within reason obviously. I'm sure if someone actually starved to death on an AWC service, it would lead to loss of the contract.