Super Off Peak ticket: Milton Keynes to York validity

[DarloRich]

Good afternoon - May I ask for some advice? A colleague was stopped by the gate line at Kings Cross travelling on a super off peak single from Milton Keynes to York. They were told that the ticket was invalid for a journey leaving London between 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays) as the validity of the ticket is governed by condition 9D

Surely the restriction in question is that you cant leave MK after 04:29 and before 09:51. If you leave there at 1500 and pitch up at Kings Cross at 17:00 surely the ticket is valid because you started your journey at MK not Kings Cross? They went to the ticket office and sorted out an upgrade but I think they should be refunded.

Is that correct?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That restriction is an utter bodge, trying to combine northbound departures from MKC with travelling via London, but unfortunately, yes they are correct. Both sets of stations would be time-restricted as the restriction says. The electronic restrictions would be applied to each train you board, and the wording of the restriction text (which is what actually counts) places restrictions on departing both.

Oh for the "Network Rule" to actually be written down - though that would mean restrictions from Kings X, not MKC.

WMT-only tickets tend to have "a connecting service may be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time", but sadly this one doesn't.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They went to the ticket office and sorted out an upgrade but I think they should be refunded.

How much was the upgrade?

 

[DarloRich]

How much was the upgrade?

I think they went to the ticket office and paid an excess (they called It an upgrade) to an any time ticket.

Unsure what the price was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2025 ==

That restriction is an utter bodge, trying to combine northbound departures from MKC with travelling via London, but unfortunately, yes they are correct. Both sets of stations would be time-restricted as the restriction says. The electronic restrictions would be applied to each train you board, and the wording of the restriction text (which is what actually counts) places restrictions on departing both.

Oh for the "Network Rule" to actually be written down - though that would mean restrictions from Kings X, not MKC.

Shows you what I know!!!!!!!!

 

[Hadders]

The ticket is routed +Any Permitted and the Milton Keynes restriction is intended for people travelling northbound.

Travelling via London there shouldn’t be any restriction between Milton Keynes and London, the restriction applies to the part of the journey from Kings Cross to Newcastle. So it isn’t valid.

As noted, back in the day this was clearly documented in the Network Area Rule that in every restriction code. Some people thought the Network Area Rule was too complicated to understand so it was ‘simplified’ with the result being the confusion we now have.

 

[DarloRich]

The ticket is routed +Any Permitted and the Milton Keynes restriction is intended for people travelling northbound.

Travelling via London there shouldn’t be any restriction between Milton Keynes and London, the restriction applies to the part of the journey from Kings Cross to Newcastle. So it isn’t valid.

As noted, back in the day this was clearly documented in the Network Area Rule that in every restriction code. Some people thought the Network Area Rule was too complicated to understand so it was ‘simplified’ with the result being the confusion we now have.

Thanks - surely it just needs a line in the MKC restriction linking to the, in this case, Kings Cross restriction ( if "they" don't want to restore the wider wording )

 

[Watershed]

Thanks - surely it just needs a line in the MKC restriction linking to the, in this case, Kings Cross restriction ( if "they" don't want to restore the wider wording )

I wouldn't have said it's necessary really. The restrictions apply to each station where you board a train. You have to read past the "London Terminals" line to get to the Milton Keynes line.

If people choose to rely on the text of the restriction code to determine valid trains rather than the output of a journey planner, that's absolutely fine. But they have to take responsibility for reading the restriction code properly and I don't think this one is unduly complicated or confusing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't have said it's necessary really. The restrictions apply to each station where you board a train. You have to read past the "London Terminals" line to get to the Milton Keynes line.

Which literally means that both the MK and London Kings Cross lines apply, because if you travel to York via London you board a train at both.

That isn't what was originally intended. It's a mess because as usual they are trying to squeeze too much into one restriction code.

This complaint isn't about the "but what if the train starts at London Terminals" thing (and I agree that's misleading because the text doesn't say "boarding at"), it's about restrictions applying both sides of London, which they're traditionally not meant to due to the Network Rule.

 

[Watershed]

Which literally means that both the MK and London Kings Cross lines apply, because if you travel to York via London you board a train at both.

That isn't what was originally intended. It's a mess because as usual they are trying to squeeze too much into one restriction code.

This complaint isn't about the "but what if the train starts at London Terminals" thing (and I agree that's misleading because the text doesn't say "boarding at"), it's about restrictions applying both sides of London, which they're traditionally not meant to due to the Network Rule.

All they need to do to avoid this being an issue is to clarify the direction in which restrictions apply at the likes of Milton Keynes and Stevenage. For example the above MK restriction could say "northbound trains timed to depart XX:XX". Of course that's not something that can feasible be implemented under the current format of electronic journey planner restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All they need to do to avoid this being an issue is to clarify the direction in which restrictions apply at the likes of Milton Keynes and Stevenage. For example the above MK restriction could say "northbound trains timed to depart XX:XX". Of course that's not something that can feasible be implemented under the current format of electronic journey planner restrictions.

You can include bars on specific trains by Retail Service ID in the electronic restrictions. As MKC has a pretty sparse intercity service, this would probably be the way to do it - though of course you have to keep it up to date.

 

[Watershed]

You can include bars on specific trains by Retail Service ID in the electronic restrictions. As MKC has a pretty sparse intercity service, this would probably be the way to do it - though of course you have to keep it up to date.

Indeed and given that most TOCs don't even keep their own RSIDs up to date in their restriction codes, I can't imagine LNER wanting to do so for another TOC.

 

[Hadders]

You can see the Milton Keynes restriction is clearly aimed for northbound departures becuase if it was intended to apply when travelling via London then stations like Bletchley, Wolverton, Leighton Buzzrd etc would all need to be referenced in the restriction.

Exactly the same issue applies with Stevenage to Manchester where you can go via Peterborough or via London with a +Any Permitted ticket. I had protraced discussions a few years ago with both LNER and Avanti about the poor wording and implementation of the restriction when trying to book a ticket via London. Eventually they agreed with me and told me to book tickets for a later train but get the earlier one as it would be valid....

I suspect many passengers get overcharged but no-one seems to have the desire to do anything about it....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect many passengers get overcharged but no-one seems to have the desire to do anything about it....

Probably not that many, it only leaves about an hour unnecessarily restricted. I suspect the "a connecting service can be used..." issue on WMT Only tickets has caused far more issues.

Doesn't make it OK of course.

 

[Hadders]

Probably not that many, it only leaves about an hour unnecessarily restricted. I suspect the "a connecting service can be used..." issue on WMT Only tickets has caused far more issues.

Doesn't make it OK of course.

I think many people will have been overcharged. From places like:

Stevenage
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Bedford
Watford Junction
Milton Keynes
Reading

to pretty much any 'long distance' destination where the passenger chooses to travel via London and 9I restriction code applies will probably have been overcharged if they have departed London between 09:30 and 10:30 on a weekday.

 

[infobleep]

All of this remainds me of Guildford to London Terminams super off-peak ticket. There is a restriction barring travel from Clapham Junction in the evening. So if you travel to London Waterloo no issues but if your destination is
London Victoria, online it only shows the off-peak fare.

I asked a question about it in 2021.vi was advised I could travel to London Victoria using my ticket. Just to note, the BE restriction times have since changed.

Restriction BE and changing trains at Clapham Junction between 16:06 and 19:09

On restriction BE it says: Not valid on trains timed to depart:.... Clapham Junction after 04:29 and before 11:08, and after 16:06 and before 19:09. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/BE Does this mean one is barred from changing trains? For example, if you have a ticket to London terminals and...

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