Re-use of route numbers

[Teapot42]

I was wondering, what is common in the industry in terms of how soon after a route is withdrawn does the route number get re-used?

I'm mainly thinking about the confusion it could cause - something that caught me out earlier in the week when I saw one of the new Chesterfield Yutongs was on the 2 and thought it would be coming near me so I could pop out for a look. Took me a minute to remember that the 2 I was thinking of was withdrawn in October 2023, but the number re-used from October 2024.

That seems very close time-wise, especially as there is a small overlap of the routes, but they are essentially completely different. Is this rapid re-use normal, or would it be more common to wait a few years for people to 'forget' about the old service, before re-using a number?

Are there any examples where a route number was re-used straight away? Of course this could get tricky as there are nearby routes with the same number, so I'm thinking ones that serve the same area of a town/city, rather than ones like the Stagecoach Yorkshire 25s which are geographically separate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Companies are usually careful in reusing numbers. If its a variation of an existing route, then fine but for something new, they usually leave it.

First in Bristol had a number of service changes and the X2 and X7 were withdrawn/renumbered respectively. However, during the same changes, there were an X1a and an X6a.... Six months later in the next set of changes, they became X2 and X7, so that thinking was evident.

 

[greenline712]

Companies are usually careful in reusing numbers. If its a variation of an existing route, then fine but for something new, they usually leave it.

First in Bristol had a number of service changes and the X2 and X7 were withdrawn/renumbered respectively. However, during the same changes, there were an X1a and an X6a.... Six months later in the next set of changes, they became X2 and X7, so that thinking was evident.

There is no hard and fast rule . . . in London Route 16 was withdrawn as such, but Route 332 was renumbered to Route 16 overnight, even though they were common for around two-thirds of their length!!
In general, through, it's a bad idea to re-use a route number in such a way, although if (say) a network of town routes are being completely revised, it may be that the operator wants to use the same sequence for other reasons, such as some form of relevent local marketing.

 

[Teapot42]

In this case the re-use of 2 was because previously they had a 1 and 1a, and someone decided to change to 1 and 2.

The original 2 was similar, there used to be a 1 serving the same area of Chesterfield but it was replaced (or re-numbered, I'm not sure which as it was before my time) by the 90 many years ago.

There is obviously some thinking going on in the background as what is now the 1 and 2 used to be in the 81/82/83 sequence until a few years back when they became the 1 and 1a. Hulleys harked back to this sequence when the Holymoorside service was renumbered the 84, presumably because it extended via Hady Hill to the Royal Hospital which is the same route these used to take.

I'm not sure of the actual benefit of renumbering to the 1 and 1a originally, especially as there was potential for confusion with the short-lived X1 which was a different route entirely.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

IIRC when the Hull area services were renumbered around the time of deregulation in 1986 some of the numbers were reused straight away. As a general rule KHCT took numbers 1-43 and East Yorkshire 44 upwards.
So route 2 which had been EY's Hull to Willerby Parkway became KHCT Hull to Boothferry Estate via Anlaby Road; 3, previously Wold Road (EY) became Orchard Park via Chanterlands Avenue (KHCT); 4, formerly used for Hull to Willerby (EY) became Orchard Park via Beverley Road (KHCT) and 6, previously Hull to Hessle (EY) became (I think) Endike Lane (KHCT).
The East Yorkshire routes became 42, 33, 44 and 66 respectively, although the 42 was quickly renumbered 46 as there was also a KHCT 42 to Greatfield!

 

[Statto]

There is no hard and fast rule . . . in London Route 16 was withdrawn as such, but Route 332 was renumbered to Route 16 overnight, even though they were common for around two-thirds of their length!!
In general, through, it's a bad idea to re-use a route number in such a way, although if (say) a network of town routes are being completely revised, it may be that the operator wants to use the same sequence for other reasons, such as some form of relevent local marketing.

London area had the 87 Barking - Romford withdrawn (that was replaced by extending the 5 from Barking to Romford), next day the 87 reappeared on the other side of London as the new number for the old 77A Aldwych - Wandsworth, although that was TFL driven rather than operator driven, as TFL wanted to eliminate suffix letters from their services, even though suffix letters are used almost everywhere outside TFL area.

 

[JKP]

In the Scottish Borders route 34 Duns to Berwick via Reston and Eyemouth was withdrawn by Travelsure in October 2023. A new 34 provided by Borders Buses began May 2024 running between Duns and Coldstream. Both routes provided on behalf of Scottish Borders Council who should have used a different number. Numbers 31 or 33 would have complemented the 32 between Duns and Swinton.

 

[edwin_m]

In general, through, it's a bad idea to re-use a route number in such a way, although if (say) a network of town routes are being completely revised, it may be that the operator wants to use the same sequence for other reasons, such as some form of relevent local marketing.

Nottingham City Transport had such a "big bang" in 2000-ish when the entire network was changed, all radial routes now terminating in the city centre instead of running through. This inevitably meant that many routes changed overnight, and most of the old numbers now went somewhere totally different. If they'd followed a principle of not re-using a number them most routes would have needed brand new numbers most likely running up above 100, and probably still had them to this day. They put out a lot of publicity about this at the time, as probably the only thing they could do to minimise confusion.

Since then there have only been more local changes, which do sometimes re-use numbers such as swapping the 5 and 7 over most of their routes as discussed on the relevant thread at the time. It hasn't prevented several stops in West Bridgford being served by the NCT 9 and the Kinch 9, and me having to explain to a baffled would-be traveller from Nottingham station to Loughborough that they needed the 9 from that stop over there, not the one shown on the stop here.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Aldershot (Hampshire) had a route 14 that ran south through Badshot Lea to Farnham until September 2011. Aldershot regained a route 14 around 4.5 years (April 2016) when Stagecoach split the eastern part of their cross-town routes 4/5 off to create a standalone Aldershot to North Town route, which they chose the number 14 for. Other than a single bus stop outside the football stadium served by both 14s, they otherwise had nothing in common with one another.

The Stagecoach South operated Park & Ride (P&R) route 100 between Guildford (Surrey) and the Spectrum Leisure Centre was "suspended" as a result of COVID. Around 3.5 years later, in August 2023, the P&R 400 between Guildford and Onslow (which had also been suspended since COVID) resumed operation, but renumbered from 400 to 100.

From August 2023, Diamond South East began a route 556 (now withdrawn) between Chertsey and Heathrow Airport via Shepperton and Sunbury Cross. The 556 number had been used up until 3.5 years prior, when the outbreak of COVID saw Runnymede Community Transport withdraw their totally unrelated commuter timed route 556 between Addlestone and Woking (for those unfamiliar with the area, Chertsey and Addlestone are essentially towns that now join each other, with their respective central town centres only being around 1.5 miles apart). This in itself had indirectly replaced what was previously all-day Abellio Surrey 556 between Woking and Chertsey via Addlestone, which ran under the 556 number until December 2016. So the 556 number had been seen on three routes (two totally different) in the Addlestone and Chertsey areas of Surrey within the space of around 8 years.

 

[Wolvercoter]

Stagecoach Exeter route K was, for many years, the trunk Pinhoe - City - Countess Wear route, running every 10 mins daytimes. Various changes took place around 2018 and 2020, including route I and J variations, by which time K was a City - Science Park service until July 2022 when the B took over. Skip to September 2024 and the K is back... as a Cowley Bridge - City - Pennsylvania hourly service.

 

[Statto]

Wirral, in 1985 the PTE had service changes & services that were numbered 3 to 8 (as well as 21, 22, 28, 81, 82) got renumbered into a scheme between 33 & 45, however in 1989, Merseybus, the successor to the PTE, changed the numbers, & the numbers between 3 & 8 were brought back into use, & on mostly the same routes as previously.

Like the 3 Seacombe - Woodside, in 1985 was renumbered to 33 (with 33A/34/34A, as 33 was extended to Woodside as a circular,, the 33A/34/34A were withdrawn at d'reg, as 33 became Seacombe - Woodside), the 33 was later renumbered back to 3 in 1989, on most of the same route as the original 3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2025 ==

Oh & another thing, after Arriva bought MTL, Arriva had a network review, Liverpool was one of the first areas affected by it, & one of the renumberings was 75 Huyton - Liverpool City Centre to 15, on the same day the 35 Halewood - Liverpool was renumbered to 75, with the logic being, renumbering the routes into a group that follow a corridor, like the current 12, 13, 15, 18 which use West Derby Road corridor.

 

[The exile]

Where it gets particularly confusing is if cross town routes swap destinations- half the route “retains” its old number, the other half doesn’t. The route numbers aren’t being “reused” because they never ceased to exist, but for people on one side of the town they no longer mean what they used to.

 

[Mark L]

Aldershot (Hampshire) had a route 14 that ran south through Badshot Lea to Farnham until September 2011. Aldershot regained a route 14 around 4.5 years (April 2016) when Stagecoach split the eastern part of their cross-town routes 4/5 off to create a standalone Aldershot to North Town route, which they chose the number 14 for. Other than a single bus stop outside the football stadium served by both 14s, they otherwise had nothing in common with one another.

The Stagecoach South operated Park & Ride (P&R) route 100 between Guildford (Surrey) and the Spectrum Leisure Centre was "suspended" as a result of COVID. Around 3.5 years later, in August 2023, the P&R 400 between Guildford and Onslow (which had also been suspended since COVID) resumed operation, but renumbered from 400 to 100.

From August 2023, Diamond South East began a route 556 (now withdrawn) between Chertsey and Heathrow Airport via Shepperton and Sunbury Cross. The 556 number had been used up until 3.5 years prior, when the outbreak of COVID saw Runnymede Community Transport withdraw their totally unrelated commuter timed route 556 between Addlestone and Woking (for those unfamiliar with the area, Chertsey and Addlestone are essentially towns that now join each other, with their respective central town centres only being around 1.5 miles apart). This in itself had indirectly replaced what was previously all-day Abellio Surrey 556 between Woking and Chertsey via Addlestone, which ran under the 556 number until December 2016. So the 556 number had been seen on three routes (two totally different) in the Addlestone and Chertsey areas of Surrey within the space of around 8 years.

The number 556 was also used by a Heathrow - Upper Halliford - Walton service although this was withdrawn in 2008 so not a million miles from areas served by more recent incarnations if the number.