Thames Trains long distance routes

[Sad Sprinter]

Thames Trains is a bit of a forgotten franchise in a way.

I was interested in knowing what the balance of services were on London to the Cotswolds Line between Thames Trains and FGW. Plus, I wanted to know if the long distance routes to Hereford and Stratford had catering.

 

[JonathanH]

Thames Trains is a bit of a forgotten franchise in a way.

I was interested in knowing what the balance of services were on London to the Cotswolds Line between Thames Trains and FGW. Plus, I wanted to know if the long distance routes to Hereford and Stratford had catering.

First Great Western ran two weekday peak trains in the main passenger flow to the North Cotswold Line - ie two to London in the morning and two back in the evening. A third mid morning service and early afternoon return on weekdays was run by Thames Trains from Paddington to Hereford using a Turbo on behalf of First Great Western. Everything else was Thames Trains.

On Saturday I think there was one up and one down FGW service, then on Sunday the FGW service ran up to London late afternoon.

Thames Trains, and Network South East before them had trolley catering on the North Downs, London to Oxford and beyond services.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Thames Trains is a bit of a forgotten franchise in a way.

The dividing line was that Thames got the former NSE services out of Paddington and FGW the InterCity ones. Although operated by inter city style stock before Turbos, Oxford services and beyond were NSE.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

FGW had two up HSTs in the morning (arriving Paddington at around 0845 and 0945) and two down HSTs in the evening (leaving Paddington at around 1710 and 1830). The latter of each was the Cathedrals Express.

The Cotswold & Malvern Express was a Paddington–Hereford and back journey in the middle of the day, but latterly this was run for FGW by Thames Trains using a Turbo, with the old slow Turbo PIS saying "Welcome to this First Great Western service" accordingly.

FGW also ran an additional HST service between Oxford and London only. This was withdrawn, I think, after Ladbroke Grove.

Everything else was Thames Trains. The service was sparser than today, with some two-hour gaps. But there was some overlap - an FGW service would leave Paddington at 17.12 followed by a Thames service at 17.18. The FGW service didn't stop at Reading, which meant those of us commuting between the Cotswolds and Reading had to watch the HST sail through Platform 4 then squeeze onto a Turbo which then sat at Didcot for some ten minutes. I hated that train.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It must have been uncomfortable going all the way to Hereford in 2+3 seating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2025 ==

FGW had two up HSTs in the morning (arriving Paddington at around 0845 and 0945) and two down HSTs in the evening (leaving Paddington at around 1710 and 1830). The latter of each was the Cathedrals Express.

The Cotswold & Malvern Express was a Paddington–Hereford and back journey in the middle of the day, but latterly this was run for FGW by Thames Trains using a Turbo, with the old slow Turbo PIS saying "Welcome to this First Great Western service" accordingly.

FGW also ran an additional HST service between Oxford and London only. This was withdrawn, I think, after Ladbroke Grove.

Everything else was Thames Trains. The service was sparser than today, with some two-hour gaps. But there was some overlap - an FGW service would leave Paddington at 17.12 followed by a Thames service at 17.18. The FGW service didn't stop at Reading, which meant those of us commuting between the Cotswolds and Reading had to watch the HST sail through Platform 4 then squeeze onto a Turbo which then sat at Didcot for some ten minutes. I hated that train.

Yes I can imagine that must have been awful. I went on Thames Trains once (well once that I can remember) and I remember it being a bit uncomfortable. And that was only from Paddington to Didcot.

Did the Paddington to Birmingham service run in the Thames Trains era or did that die out with privatisation?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Even after FGW turned most of the line over to HST/180 operation, there was still a Hereford return trip on Sundays operated by a Turbo. It wasn’t fun.

The rare Birmingham extension never ran under Thames Trains. I think that some Central Trains drivers retained Cotswold route knowledge for a few years after privatisation, though.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes I can imagine that must have been awful. I went on Thames Trains once (well once that I can remember) and I remember it being a bit uncomfortable. And that was only from Paddington to Didcot.

No more or less comfortable than travelling on a 165 or 166 under any of the operators they have had.

That said, Thames Trains never managed to replace the NSE-specified moquette on the 165s and 166s, and it wasn't until the FGW takeover before the moquette was changed to First Group standard moquette of the time.

 

[warwickshire]

Even after FGW turned most of the line over to HST/180 operation, there was still a Hereford return trip on Sundays operated by a Turbo. It wasn’t fun.

The rare Birmingham extension never ran under Thames Trains. I think that some Central Trains drivers retained Cotswold route knowledge for a few years after privatisation, though.

Yes, that's correct it was done by Central Trains drivers based at Worcester Shrub Hill. Until 2007, as a contract with First Great Western. However when it changed to London Midlands that contract ended.

With First Great Western drivers based at Oxford taking over and doing the work.
hence them having, overnight stays at Oxford to bring services back in the morning.

Probably Central Trains drivers at Oxford had it until 2007, maybe and could well be as part of a original contract and agreement between Regional Railways and Network South East.

Ironically now with the Gwr IEP/IET sets taking over, history has repeated itself again, because in recent times GWR has opened up and has a Gwr drivers depot at Worcester. Who do cotswolds services especially as their is now more later and earlier Trains than before.

Also at Oxford depot for catering on those services ie Thames Trains, ref op above,
Rail Gourmet had a catering depot their also.

 

[warwickshire]

Yes, that's correct it was done by Central Trains drivers based at Worcester Shrub Hill. Until 2007, as a contract with First Great Western. However when it changed to London Midlands that contract ended.

With First Great Western drivers based at Oxford taking over and doing the work.
hence them having, overnight stays at Oxford to bring services back in the morning.

Probably Central Trains drivers at Oxford had it until 2007, maybe and could well be as part of a original contract and agreement between Regional Railways and Network South East.

Ironically now with the Gwr IEP/IET sets taking over, history has repeated itself again, because in recent times GWR has opened up and has a Gwr drivers depot at Worcester. Who do cotswolds services especially as their is now more later and earlier Trains than before.

Also at Oxford depot for catering on those services ie Thames Trains, ref op above,
Rail Gourmet had a catering depot their also.

Ie Correction to above, due to First Great Western based Oxford drivers taking over from Central Trains drivers based at Worcester Shrub Hill in 2007 for Cotswold line services, it meant they had to stay overnight at Worcester to bring the services back to Oxford in the morning.

 

[43096]

then on Sunday the FGW service ran up to London late afternoon.

There was a balancing down FGW working on Sundays too. Ran as 1245 from Paddington, same set returning as 1630ish Hereford to Padddington.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Didn't the 166's have a different darker blue moquette to the usual NSE on the 165'? I remember going to Stratford on Avon circa 1999 and sure I noticed a difference.

 

[JonathanH]

Didn't the 166's have a different darker blue moquette to the usual NSE on the 165'?

Yes. I always reckoned it made the seats look wider, although of course they weren't. The same moquette was fitted to 159s and 166s.

[Picture shows original interior of 166 table area]

 

[jimm]

Yes, that's correct it was done by Central Trains drivers based at Worcester Shrub Hill. Until 2007, as a contract with First Great Western. However when it changed to London Midlands that contract ended.

It was not purely about the change of operator from Central to LM, more that soon after taking over, LM began to increase the frequency of services between Hereford/Worcester and Birmingham - and in 2008-9 also experimented with a Worcester-Gloucester service - so needed all its Worcester-based drivers to operate these duties.

 

[Horizon22]

FGW had two up HSTs in the morning (arriving Paddington at around 0845 and 0945) and two down HSTs in the evening (leaving Paddington at around 1710 and 1830). The latter of each was the Cathedrals Express.

The Cotswold & Malvern Express was a Paddington–Hereford and back journey in the middle of the day, but latterly this was run for FGW by Thames Trains using a Turbo, with the old slow Turbo PIS saying "Welcome to this First Great Western service" accordingly.

FGW also ran an additional HST service between Oxford and London only. This was withdrawn, I think, after Ladbroke Grove.

The HST involved in the tragic Ladbroke Grove incident was one of those Up HSTs wasn't it?

Edit: No, it was a ex-Cheltenham service.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes. I always reckoned it made the seats look wider, although of course they weren't. The same moquette was fitted to 159s and 166s.

[Picture shows original interior of 166 table area]

So 80s!

 

[nw1]

A bit of a side question (sorry, only just seen the thread) but what variant of Turbo operated the Bedwyn terminators in the early days? They seemed to leave Paddington at xx31, call at Ealing Broadway, Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford on the relief lines and then continue to Bedwyn or Newbury depending on the hour. Were these 166 or 165?

 

[JonathanH]

A bit of a side question (sorry, only just seen the thread) but what variant of Turbo operated the Bedwyn terminators in the early days? They seemed to leave Paddington at xx31, call at Ealing Broadway, Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford on the relief lines and then continue to Bedwyn or Newbury depending on the hour. Were these 166 or 165?

The 1631 from Paddington was a 2-car 165 in the 1993 timetable, as this was the train I took between Twyford and Reading some evenings at that time, but this one terminated at Newbury. In theory, any service shown as TE in the timetable should have been a 166.

 

[nw1]

The 1631 from Paddington was a 2-car 165 in the 1993 timetable, as this was the train I took between Twyford and Reading some evenings at that time, but this one terminated at Newbury. In theory, any service shown as TE in the timetable should have been a 166.

Ah ok, thanks. I think you've mentioned that particular service before now you say it... 2 car for a 1630-ish service must have been pretty packed!

 

[cactustwirly]

The 1631 from Paddington was a 2-car 165 in the 1993 timetable, as this was the train I took between Twyford and Reading some evenings at that time, but this one terminated at Newbury. In theory, any service shown as TE in the timetable should have been a 166.

I never knew there was a regular Twyford to Newbury/Bedwyn service

When did it stop?

 

[nw1]

I never knew there was a regular Twyford to Newbury/Bedwyn service

When did it stop?

It was introduced in 1993 (I think) when the Turbos were introduced. By 1999 the Bedwyn service had been amended to depart at xx28 and called additionally at Southall and Hayes but ceased to call at Twyford; at that point there was an additional Reading-Newbury local service, interworking with the Basingstokes, so it only called at Theale and Thatcham west of Reading.

By 2004 the faster Bedwyn services, running non-stop to Reading, had appeared. The 'TE' symbol was no longer a thing by then but I guess these were 166?

(All from the WTTs on Network Rail)

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It was introduced in 1993 (I think) when the Turbos were introduced.

Did it perhaps predate the Turbos? I have this distant memory of 117s with this obscure destination on the semi fast service to Maidenhead.

Later it became the NSE boundary and that predated Turbos.

 

[JonathanH]

It was introduced in 1993 (I think) when the Turbos were introduced. By 1999 the Bedwyn service had been amended to depart at xx28 and called additionally at Southall and Hayes but ceased to call at Twyford

Looking at old timetables the xx31 from Paddington, later xx28, never stopped at Twyford (other than the 1631).

The initial Turbo timetable had xx07 and xx37 departures on the relief line to Oxford, and Reading, with a separate Reading to Oxford stopper. By the end of the 1990s, both the xx07 and xx37 went through to Oxford, with an extra xx58 running to Reading on the opposite side of the hour to the xx28 service.

Oxford fast was also 1tph off peak to start off with under NSE, then later went 2tph.

 

[The exile]

The dividing line was that Thames got the former NSE services out of Paddington and FGW the InterCity ones. Although operated by inter city style stock before Turbos, Oxford services and beyond were NSE.

Surely NSE’s penetration beyond Oxford was only Banbury/Bicester? Cotswold line being IC / Regional.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Surely NSE’s penetration beyond Oxford was only Banbury/Bicester? Cotswold line being IC / Regional.

Did the Paddington-Stratford-upon-Avon services commence under NSE or was it a Thames Trains thing?

 

[warwickshire]

Did the Paddington-Stratford-upon-Avon services commence under NSE or was it a Thames Trains thing?

As far as I am aware they did,
Can remember getting one to school between Leamington and Stratford back in the days

 

[The exile]

Did the Paddington-Stratford-upon-Avon services commence under NSE or was it a Thames Trains thing?

Confess I’d forgotten that one - I was thinking more of the Cotswold line in response to the “Oxford and beyond” comment. Of course - one iteration of the Paddington - Stratfordxwas the short lived “Stratford Pullman” - that definitely wasn’t NSE!

 

[DelW]

Surely NSE’s penetration beyond Oxford was only Banbury/Bicester? Cotswold line being IC / Regional.

Boundaries may have been changed over the years, but FWIW, the current Network Railcard is valid as far as Worcester Foregate St (via the Cotswold line only).

 

[jimm]

Did the Paddington-Stratford-upon-Avon services commence under NSE or was it a Thames Trains thing?

As warwickshire said, NSE started the Paddington-Stratford services (and the short-lived Paddington-Birmingham New Street runs via Stourbridge) at the same time as it took over Cotswold Line duties from Regional Railways in May 1993 - sort of ish - as there was a lot of track and signalling work going on around Paddington at the time, so the full service was not operating until about mid-June.

The 166s were also a novelty item in the early days, as only five had been accepted for service by mid-May, with 165s standing in most of the time, though Martin Loader photographed 166204 at Stratford on May 17, forming the first service from Paddington.

http://www.hondawanderer.com/166204_Stratford-upon-Avon_1993.htm

The return working only went as far as Oxford

http://www.hondawanderer.com/166204_Bishopton_1993.htm

Someone may recall whether some of the Cotswold and Stratford services ran coupled together between Oxford and Paddington from the outset, which was certainly the case in Thames Trains days.