Could the rollout of EMR Class 810s have been done differently? What lessons could be learnt?

[D365]

The chances of a follow-on order must be vanishingly low at best.

Goes to show that in spite of all the criticism about toilets and seating layouts, the Voyager/Meridian fleets have done nothing to stem the passenger growth on EMR and CrossCountry!

 

[QSK19]

Sheffield London is approx 2 hours but that is only one part of the service. Derby London and Nottingham London are about 90 mins and Leicester London an hour.
For that timescale hot food or a full meal is somewhat over the top. I think for those short journeys the offer is better than many others because it may only be sandwiches and snacks but in my experience they rotate the sandwich choice much more often than other routes so you get much better variety. Also you actually get it as the EMR first class hosts are pretty proactive at doing plenty of runs in my experience.

Indeed I’m fully aware of travel times on the IC service; however I used the longest journey as an example.

I echo @Class15 in that, regardless of length of time, it is nevertheless an IC service. I would take the middle ground and not have a menu as extensive as LNER’s; however it must still be decent enough for an IC offering - sandwiches are simply not acceptable.

 

[Helvellyn]

Indeed I’m fully aware of travel times on the IC service; however I used the longest journey as an example.

I echo @Class15 in that, regardless of length of time, it is nevertheless an IC service. I would take the middle ground and not have a menu as extensive as LNER’s; however it must still be decent enough for an IC offering - sandwiches are simply not acceptable.

The full breakfast service on the HSTs was apparently popular, especially when it became complimentary. But Meridians couldn't offer it, hence the bap offering to this day. I doubt the 810s have been specified with kitchens like the LNER Azumas so it would be a case of what's possible? Changes I'd like to see:

• Return to proper crockery and glasses for drinks.
• Serve the sandwiches on plates with a side salad and crisps (if I can get that at pretty much any cafe why not in First Class?).
• The above would allow a toasted option (sandwich, panini) as well as cold.
• Consider an evening meal option if they don't want a hot meal all day. Equivalent of an offering from the LNER Dish menu that is heated and served, but prepared off site.
• Bring all soft drinks into the complimentary offering, and maybe also wine. Keep other alcoholic drinks as chargeable if need be, but maybe a flat supplement as an upsell.

 

[WesternLancer]

Agreed. EMR in their infinite wisdom have permanently closed all their First Class Lounges at several stations. Speaking with staff on the ground who are harassed with short formed overcrowded services, the new trains will be a short reprieve. How many First Class seats will these have?

Fewer than existing sets iirc. Perhaps one end vehicle only. Would that be like Hull Trains’ sets.

 

[LowLevel]

The full breakfast service on the HSTs was apparently popular, especially when it became complimentary. But Meridians couldn't offer it, hence the bap offering to this day. I doubt the 810s have been specified with kitchens like the LNER Azumas so it would be a case of what's possible? Changes I'd like to see:

• Return to proper crockery and glasses for drinks.
• Serve the sandwiches on plates with a side salad and crisps (if I can get that at pretty much any cafe why not in First Class?).
• The above would allow a toasted option (sandwich, panini) as well as cold.
• Consider an evening meal option if they don't want a hot meal all day. Equivalent of an offering from the LNER Dish menu that is heated and served, but prepared off site.
• Bring all soft drinks into the complimentary offering, and maybe also wine. Keep other alcoholic drinks as chargeable if need be, but maybe a flat supplement as an upsell.

Meridians can and did offer the breakfast service, there were booked breakfast services on both 5 and 7 car sets, the cooking method was somewhat different to the HSTs but it was still a chef cooked breakfast. It was cost cut.

No chance of anything but paper stuff I think on the 810s, don't know if it happened but rumours suggested they wanted to despec the dishwashers from the galley to save money.

 

[WesternLancer]

Indeed I’m fully aware of travel times on the IC service; however I used the longest journey as an example.

I echo @Class15 in that, regardless of length of time, it is nevertheless an IC service. I would take the middle ground and not have a menu as extensive as LNER’s; however it must still be decent enough for an IC offering - sandwiches are simply not acceptable.

Indeed. And being’free’ there is the usual incentive to drive down quality. The sandwiches are of a poor standard imho. If the BR sandwich was the ‘butt of music hall jokes’ these are the equivalent of that if not worse.

They compare poorly to high street products or what you could buy at a station before boarding imho (eg co op shop at Nottingham station let alone m&s at st p).

They are not even served on any kind of a plate. Just a small paper napkin.

It must surely be the worst first class product offer on any former inter city route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==

The full breakfast service on the HSTs was apparently popular, especially when it became complimentary. But Meridians couldn't offer it, hence the bap offering to this day. I doubt the 810s have been specified with kitchens like the LNER Azumas so it would be a case of what's possible? Changes I'd like to see:

• Return to proper crockery and glasses for drinks.
• Serve the sandwiches on plates with a side salad and crisps (if I can get that at pretty much any cafe why not in First Class?).
• The above would allow a toasted option (sandwich, panini) as well as cold.
• Consider an evening meal option if they don't want a hot meal all day. Equivalent of an offering from the LNER Dish menu that is heated and served, but prepared off site.
• Bring all soft drinks into the complimentary offering, and maybe also wine. Keep other alcoholic drinks as chargeable if need be, but maybe a flat supplement as an upsell.

All points well made. The later in the day dish offer with Stagecoach was paid for but good value. That is a reasonable approach imho as to sell it it needs to be edible. Being edible is not seemingly a high priority with EMR current ‘free’ sandwich offer. It must rank below the priority of cheapest sourced option.

 

[43066]

Meridians can and did offer the breakfast service, there were booked breakfast services on both 5 and 7 car sets, the cooking method was somewhat different to the HSTs but it was still a chef cooked breakfast. It was cost cut.

No chance of anything but paper stuff I think on the 810s, don't know if it happened but rumours suggested they wanted to despec the dishwashers from the galley to save money.

The kitchens are also very pokey indeed compared to the ones on the Meridians.

 

[LowLevel]

The kitchens are also very pokey indeed compared to the ones on the Meridians.

They were intentionally delivered with a very high spec to deliver a proper meal service by MML. Not quite to the level the HSTs were capable of but more than able to supply a cooked breakfast.

Even latterly when hired to UK Railtours and on special occasions under EMT they managed a full evening meal service from the HST kitchens!

The only downside was of course the HST had no dishwashers so washing up was very labour intensive. More than once in exchange for a free breakfast whilst travelling for leisure (chargeable to staff of course) I weighed in with the washing up and years ago I was kicking out a set that had failed in traffic ready to send it ECS to the depot and found the train manager and a director frantically trying to finish the washing up before we sent it out

 

[HSTEd]

It’s not quite clear what’s being said here. Is it your suggestion that it isn’t worth doubling length, and therefore capacity on trains, because one or two extra staff are needed?

That would be a most bizarre approach on the EMR IC network, where trains are increasingly regularly crush loaded.

No, the suggestion is we should build longer fixed formation EMUs rather than more shorter units without gangways.

I don't really think the operational savings from theoretically being able to match supply to demand are worth it.
The savings in vehicles are diluted by the lower average capacity of each vehicle, plus all the shunt related effort and the need in many cases to have additional staff.

 

[DDB]

The myth that only the HSTs could do breakfast rears it head again!

I freely admit I miss the cooked breakfasts but the economics must have been bonkers because they mostly only did them in the London direction and it took loads of extra staff so I assume you only got one trip out of the extra staff as I doubt they would be able to get back North again in time to do a second trip that often or at all.

I much prefer the sandwiches to LNERs offerings because of how often they change and EMR crews are much more generous with the accompanying snacks.

The way the first class offer could and should be improved to match the new travel patterns is to extend it to Sundays

 

[43066]

They were intentionally delivered with a very high spec to deliver a proper meal service by MML. Not quite to the level the HSTs were capable of but more than able to supply a cooked breakfast.

Even latterly when hired to UK Railtours and on special occasions under EMT they managed a full evening meal service from the HST kitchens!

The only downside was of course the HST had no dishwashers so washing up was very labour intensive. More than once in exchange for a free breakfast whilst travelling for leisure (chargeable to staff of course) I weighed in with the washing up and years ago I was kicking out a set that had failed in traffic ready to send it ECS to the depot and found the train manager and a director frantically trying to finish the washing up before we sent it out

Indeed. Surprising in a way they’ve switched away from dishwashing given the focus these days on avoiding single use plastics etc. That needs to be offset against weight and cost, and I suppose the potential for breakage.

Not so long ago drivers of Meridian services would be offered toast or even breakfast by the crew. Those were the days !

No, the suggestion is we should build longer fixed formation EMUs rather than more shorter units without gangways.

I don't really think the operational savings from theoretically being able to match supply to demand are worth it.
The savings in vehicles are diluted by the lower average capacity of each vehicle, plus all the shunt related effort and the need in many cases to have additional staff.

Understood.

 

[Trainman40083]

Earlier, there was talk of longer 9 car trains. One issue is, that at St Pancras, there are three platforms available for four trains per hour from Leicester and north. Platform 1 seems solely for the Corby Connect services. This sometimes leads to two different trains being in a single platform. So, if all the trains were 9 car, it might adversely affect capacity. So, we have the whole fleet of five car units. I guess of there is a failure, then at least 5 cars can run instead of a pair. But what happens if demand grows to such an extent, that the new capacity is exceeded? I guess you could make Corby part of Thameslink. But further North?

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't really think the operational savings from theoretically being able to match supply to demand are worth it.
The savings in vehicles are diluted by the lower average capacity of each vehicle, plus all the shunt related effort and the need in many cases to have additional staff.

It is worth it, and very much so for an operation like the MML.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I do think EMR do slightly better than CrossCountry in regards to intercity quality, I know I like taking EMR in 1st class and at least for my coffee I have a better cup and lid than what XC use, ultimately all stick deliveries seem to be cursed be it out 810s at Etches Park, the Metros up in Newcastle or South west's trains, I do think the shortness of platforms both at St Pancras also Beeston and Long Eaton is a big issue, many times on a double train the guard has to announce the rear train will not unlock,

 

[WesternLancer]

I do think EMR do slightly better than CrossCountry in regards to intercity quality, I know I like taking EMR in 1st class and at least for my coffee I have a better cup and lid than what XC use, ultimately all stick deliveries seem to be cursed be it out 810s at Etches Park, the Metros up in Newcastle or South west's trains, I do think the shortness of platforms both at St Pancras also Beeston and Long Eaton is a big issue, many times on a double train the guard has to announce the rear train will not unlock,

Some truth in this.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is worth it, and very much so for an operation like the MML.

Even with the additional costs for having shorter, non-standard 80x units?

On the dishwasher issue - the alternative to washing dishes on the train is to wash dishes somewhere off-board, and load clean dishes and dirty dishes off at the chosen location(s). I've heard that's how LNER does it, and given the space (and water!) restrictions onboard a train, it does make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==

The only downside was of course the HST had no dishwashers so washing up was very labour intensive. More than once in exchange for a free breakfast whilst travelling for leisure (chargeable to staff of course) I weighed in with the washing up and years ago I was kicking out a set that had failed in traffic ready to send it ECS to the depot and found the train manager and a director frantically trying to finish the washing up before we sent it out

I really hope this is a myth, because washing up by hand is insane

 

[Russel]

So... what is the expected date for these to enter service?

 

[43066]

So... what is the expected date for these to enter service?

There isn’t one currently.

 

[LowLevel]

Even with the additional costs for having shorter, non-standard 80x units?

On the dishwasher issue - the alternative to washing dishes on the train is to wash dishes somewhere off-board, and load clean dishes and dirty dishes off at the chosen location(s). I've heard that's how LNER does it, and given the space (and water!) restrictions onboard a train, it does make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==


I really hope this is a myth, because washing up by hand is insane

Of course it's not a myth, that's how HSTs worked on the MML from the 80s until the 2020s.

 

[Trainman40083]

Even with the additional costs for having shorter, non-standard 80x units?

On the dishwasher issue - the alternative to washing dishes on the train is to wash dishes somewhere off-board, and load clean dishes and dirty dishes off at the chosen location(s). I've heard that's how LNER does it, and given the space (and water!) restrictions onboard a train, it does make sense.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==


I really hope this is a myth, because washing up by hand is insane

Be all paper plates and cups on 810 units. No pot washing on or off the train.

 

[WesternLancer]

Be all paper plates and cups on 810 units. No pot washing on or off the train.

One would presume that after all franchises are in house GBR will need to provide a consistent 'product offer' across various types of operation - eg all 'inter city' style routes offer something similar etc etc - I accept that this is very likely to be lowest common denominator driven, but you would think some consistency will come in over what a 'first class offer' might look like by route / journey time etc etc and this might extend to menus, crockery, seat reservation, wi-fi etc.

 

[Trainman40083]

One would presume that after all franchises are in house GBR will need to provide a consistent 'product offer' across various types of operation - eg all 'inter city' style routes offer something similar etc etc - I accept that this is very likely to be lowest common denominator driven, but you would think some consistency will come in over what a 'first class offer' might look like by route / journey time etc etc and this might extend to menus, crockery, seat reservation, wi-fi etc.

You'd hope so. But as it stands, the facility to do so, on a 810 unit just won't be there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd hope so. But as it stands, the facility to do so, on a 810 unit just won't be there.

I suppose it depends on whether ECML and MML come under the same train category - they won't necessarily, the MML is somewhat secondary compared to the main ECML and WCML expresses, probably more on a par with the GW Bristols.

I do suspect there'll be harmonisation of the ECML and WCML offering, but I wouldn't like to say it'd necessarily line up with the MML, Norwich etc.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suppose it depends on whether ECML and MML come under the same train category - they won't necessarily, the MML is somewhat secondary compared to the main ECML and WCML expresses, probably more on a par with the GW Bristols.

I do suspect there'll be harmonisation of the ECML and WCML offering, but I wouldn't like to say it'd necessarily line up with the MML, Norwich etc.

I suspect it will be years before things 'fall into line' in reality...

 

[Kite159]

Easiest solution to create more space at St Pancras is handing over the Corby services to Thameslink to run from St Pancras low level (maybe in addition to the existing Bedford trains so they can run semi-fast north of London [St Albans, Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford etc] in the same sort of path currently used by the 360s.

But imagine the faces when the commuters of Wellingborough paying Intercity prices get a 700

As for St Pancras, in hindsight wouldn't doing similar to Glasgow Queen Street in extending the platforms into the concourse area to allow 2x 5 coach 80x trains have been easier than Hitachi redesigning the platform to be shorter coaches.

 

[QSK19]

But imagine the faces when the commuters of Wellingborough paying Intercity prices get a 700 .

As if the fire didn’t need any more stoking

 

[Bald Rick]

Easiest solution to create more space at St Pancras is handing over the Corby services to Thameslink to run from St Pancras low level (maybe in addition to the existing Bedford trains so they can run semi-fast north of London [St Albans, Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford etc] in the same sort of path currently used by the 360s.

That’s not easy at all!

As for St Pancras, in hindsight wouldn't doing similar to Glasgow Queen Street in extending the platforms into the concourse area to allow 2x 5 coach 80x trains have been easier than Hitachi redesigning the platform to be shorter coaches.

Again, not remotely easy.

The easiest thing to do is what has been done, on the assumotion that the train manufacturer kept it’s commitments.

 

[QSK19]

I suppose it depends on whether ECML and MML come under the same train category - they won't necessarily, the MML is somewhat secondary compared to the main ECML and WCML expresses, probably more on a par with the GW Bristols.

I do suspect there'll be harmonisation of the ECML and WCML offering, but I wouldn't like to say it'd necessarily line up with the MML, Norwich etc.

The MML would probably fit within a regional express sort of level. The 810s seem to have a lower spec than the 80x in general; so there is no way that, under a harmonised GBR, they could be compared to Azumas or Everos (which they would effectively be if the Intercity label were kept).

 

[Failed Unit]

As for St Pancras, in hindsight wouldn't doing similar to Glasgow Queen Street in extending the platforms into the concourse area to allow 2x 5 coach 80x trains have been easier than Hitachi redesigning the platform to be shorter coaches.

But then you could argue order from elsewhere, or where Hitachi the only one in the tender.We will never know but another manufacturer could have had the sets in service by now.

Be interesting if the MML plan was to electrify thoughout if the fleet would be more like LNERs, With respect to a small number of diesels for the diversions.

 

[Energy]

Be interesting if the MML plan was to electrify thoughout if the fleet would be more like LNERs

Probably more class 397s. The design wouldn't need any changes so they'd be a fairly low-risk purchase, and CAF would be able to make them quickly and cheaply since no R&D.

But then you could argue order from elsewhere, or where Hitachi the only one in the tender.

Bombardier and Stadler both offered a product for the east midlands.