Could the rollout of EMR Class 810s have been done differently? What lessons could be learnt?

[QSK19]

Moderator note: split from

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

Some coaches of 810002 are in Italy at the Pistoia plant, and I believe the design work was also done there for the 810s Many thanks for clarifying.

www.railforums.co.uk

Dare we even take bets for introduction in 2027?! Surely it couldn’t possibly be…

It does make me wonder, though, how things would have panned out if Stadler had won the bid.

 

[Trainman40083]

Dare we even take bets for 2027?! Surely it couldn’t possibly be…

Does make me wonder, though, how things would have panned out if Stadler had won the bid.

Could have been quicker to extend St Pancras station and take the standard length units. But what does concern me, is the state of the existing units. When I was at Derby on Thursday, one train got cancelled "due to more trains needing maintenance than usual". One I caught had no working seat reservations. The standard response from EMR is usually "you may be entitled to compensation". For me , the day the new trains enter service cannot come soon enough. At least the passengers will see change, rather than same old.

 

[D365]

Does make me wonder, though, how things would have panned out if Stadler had won the bid.

Or Litchurch Lane - I don’t recall whether or not it was an Aventra variant, but they were known to have a bi-mode under development.

 

[800001]

Could have been quicker to extend St Pancras station and take the standard length units. But what does concern me, is the state of the existing units. When I was at Derby on Thursday, one train got cancelled "due to more trains needing maintenance than usual". One I caught had no working seat reservations. The standard response from EMR is usually "you may be entitled to compensation". For me , the day the new trains enter service cannot come soon enough. At least the passengers will see change, rather than same old.

EMR had a software issue with the seat reservation system across the 222 fleet over the last few weeks.
They published this on social Media
I believe that is now rectified.

Also, even modern trains have days where set reservations do not work.

 

[WesternLancer]

Could have been quicker to extend St Pancras station and take the standard length units. But what does concern me, is the state of the existing units. When I was at Derby on Thursday, one train got cancelled "due to more trains needing maintenance than usual". One I caught had no working seat reservations. The standard response from EMR is usually "you may be entitled to compensation". For me , the day the new trains enter service cannot come soon enough. At least the passengers will see change, rather than same old.

Reservation failure has been across the whole fleet for some weeks and months now. Passengers were complaining about this to each other when I was on one the other week. It’s a real issue when the trains are so short and often crowded.

Worse. Last week my scheduled 10 car train with plenty of people booked on it couldn’t couple so went out as 5 cars. I don’t know how often that happens or to what extent it is related to other condition issues.

No hot water boiler working on one 4 days later so no tea and coffee in the first class offer. Just the tepid bottles of water (occurs to me to wonder why the water bottles never get stored in the fridge).

EMR are mediocre operator imho. I can’t see that a new fleet will alter general mediocrity sadly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

EMR had a software issue with the seat reservation system across the 222 fleet over the last few weeks.
They published this on social Media
I believe that is now rectified.

Also, even modern trains have days where set reservations do not work.

Wasn’t rectified last Wednesday evening on the train I was on!

I think it went wrong before Christmas.

 

[Nottingham59]

Could have been quicker to extend St Pancras station and take the standard length units.

In retrospect, they could have simply ordered standard 9-car units, which at 233m would have easily fitted into St Pancras.

 

[LowLevel]

The 222 fleet is being flogged - long gone are the days of a spare unit here and there plus a HST at Derby if required (with enough slack to use a unit on the Leicester - Lincoln route or the Crewe line if needed!) and of course even the 4 rubbish 180s have left to go and sit at Ely to satisfy the need for box ticking expenditure cuts despite the services they operate being effectively profitable (though yes of course micro fleets come with disproportionate expenditure as we are all aware).

A single failure in traffic often results in the cancellation of the entire unit diagram.

Consequently they're extremely tired in all respects and problems are to be expected. No one expected them to still be here by now in any long term planning.

The reservation system is a mix of technical issues related to 3G being switched off and geographical issues whereby trains standing in certain locations including Sheffield platform 8 and Nottingham in general struggle to download reservations due to the poor phone signal there.

 

[WesternLancer]

In retrospect, they could have simply ordered standard 9-car units, which at 233m would have easily fitted into St Pancras.

Indeed. Which would have catered for natural growth on the route (already happened/ happening from my observation even without the sparks effect that the new trains will bring).

And a few 5 car sets to double up or separate at peak and low demand times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

The 222 fleet is being flogged - long gone are the days of a spare unit here and there plus a HST at Derby if required (with enough slack to use a unit on the Leicester - Lincoln route or the Crewe line if needed!) and of course even the 4 rubbish 180s have left.

A single failure in traffic often results in the cancellation of the entire unit diagram.

Consequently they're extremely tired in all respects and problems are to be expected. No one expected them to still be here by now in any long term planning.

The reservation system is a mix of technical issues related to 3G being switched off and geographical issues whereby trains standing in certain locations including Sheffield platform 8 and Nottingham in general struggle to download reservations due to the poor phone signal there.

Thanks for those insights @LowLevel Helpful to read.

I wonder if DfT were clearly told that the service would not be able to be maintained when the decision to reduce the fleet was agreed / imposed presumably with DfT.

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed. Which would have catered for natural growth on the route (already happened/ happening from my observation even without the sparks effect that the new trains will bring).

And a few 5 car sets to double up or separate at peak and low demand times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==


Thanks for those insights @LowLevel Helpful to read.

I wonder if DfT were clearly told that the service would not be able to be maintained when the decision to reduce the fleet was agreed / imposed presumably with DfT.

The cuts were arbitrary and it was explained to me at the time by a senior manager as either lose the 180s and fulfill most of the required savings in one go, or have a whole lot more unpalatable cuts made in other areas.

 

[QSK19]

EMR are mediocre operator imho. I can’t see that a new fleet will alter general mediocrity sadly.

I travelled in first class of an Azuma yesterday and it was light years ahead of EMR’s offering (as was the offering on the Pendo I went on a few months ago).

I fully get that it’s a relatively short journey from STP to Sheffield (arguably a regional express length of time) and that the DfT has always hated the East Midlands (ie a factor beyond the TOC’s control); however that is no excuse for such a poor offering.

I dearly hope the 810s do provide EMR’s IC passengers with the decent service they (well, we) dearly deserve; but I won’t be convinced until I see and experience them in the flesh.

 

[WesternLancer]

The cuts were arbitrary and it was explained to me at the time by a senior manager as either lose the 180s and fulfill most of the required savings in one go, or have a whole lot more unpalatable cuts made in other areas.

Thanks. And no change with a change of government or the creation of an East Midlands Mayor (possibly the lowest profile mayor in the uk when it comes to turning up the temperature with Westminster).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

I travelled in first class of an Azuma yesterday and it was light years ahead of EMR’s offering (as was the service on the Pendo I went on a few months ago).

I fully get that it’s a relatively short journey from STP to Sheffield (hence a regional express length of time) and the the DfT has always hated the East Midlands (ie a factor beyond the TOC’s control); however that is no excuse for such a poor offering.

I dearly hope the 810s do provide EMR’s IC passengers with the premium service they (well, we) dearly deserve; but I won’t be convinced until I see and experience them in the flesh.

I share your analysis. And fares are not commensurate cheaper to reflect the poorer offer. It’s a substantial decline from stagecoach days frankly.

And London to Sheffield should be comparable to London Leeds.

I hope the top brass at GB Railways enjoy the experience when they move to Derby.

 

[QSK19]

I hope the top brass at GB Railways enjoy the experience when they move to Derby.

Yes very good point!

 

[Nottingham59]

And a few 5 car sets to double up ....2

Unfortunately 2 x 5-car at 260m would be too long to fit at St Pancras without interventions there.

 

[D365]

In retrospect, they could have simply ordered standard 9-car units, which at 233m would have easily fitted into St Pancras.

Which would have required a brand new depot as Etches Park is severely constrained. If anyone tried to put together a business case for this, I’m can’t imagine that it would have gone very far.

 

[Nottingham59]

Which would have required a brand new depot as Etches Park is severely constrained. If anyone tried to put together a business case for this, I’m can’t imagine that it would have gone very far.

Yes, indeed. I'm sure EMR did whatever seemed to have the best business case at the time.

But if they had known that the 810s would be so late, and that places like Toton would not be needed for HS2 after all, then the case for an alternative depot strategy might have looked very different.

 

[JamesT]

Would St Pancras have sufficient platforms if you’re using 9x26 trains for all the services, rather than 5x24 that can share a platform?

 

[HSTEd]

Which would have required a brand new depot as Etches Park is severely constrained. If anyone tried to put together a business case for this, I’m can’t imagine that it would have gone very far.

The depot complex is central enough to Derby that it probably has a substantial redevelopment value though.

That would probably take at least some of the sting out of the cost of a new depot in a less valuable location.

But that is not the railway's primary business at the end of the day.

 

[DDB]

Indeed. Which would have catered for natural growth on the route (already happened/ happening from my observation even without the sparks effect that the new trains will bring).

And a few 5 car sets to double up or separate at peak and low demand times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

Except you can't double up normal length 5 cars sets that is the point.

What they have done is have an entire standard fleet of 5 car sets (with more standard seats than the current 5 cars) that they can indeed split and double up.

Ordering 9 car sets which most of the time would be half empty would have wasted massive amounts of money.

I travelled in first class of an Azuma yesterday and it was light years ahead of EMR’s offering (as was the offering on the Pendo I went on a few months ago).

I fully get that it’s a relatively short journey from STP to Sheffield (arguably a regional express length of time) and that the DfT has always hated the East Midlands (ie a factor beyond the TOC’s control); however that is no excuse for such a poor offering.

Sheffield London is approx 2 hours but that is only one part of the service. Derby London and Nottingham London are about 90 mins and Leicester London an hour.
For that timescale hot food or a full meal is somewhat over the top. I think for those short journeys the offer is better than many others because it may only be sandwiches and snacks but in my experience they rotate the sandwich choice much more often than other routes so you get much better variety. Also you actually get it as the EMR first class hosts are pretty proactive at doing plenty of runs in my experience.

 

[Class15]

For that timescale hot food or a full meal is somewhat over the top.

I disagree. It’s an intercity route.

 

[Snow1964]

Which would have required a brand new depot as Etches Park is severely constrained. If anyone tried to put together a business case for this, I’m can’t imagine that it would have gone very far.

Although the business case that got approved turned out to have a lot of falsehoods in it, regarding introduction dates and off-leasing the 222s during 2023 etc. If an extra 2 years had been factored into the build then potentially a better site nearby could have been an option over altering Etches Park

It's also questionable if the 810s would have been spec'd with so much diesel power if dates after the wires upgrade, and wires to nearly Leicester had been correct in the business case. Similarly would it have been cheaper to extend some platforms than redesign and then struggle to re certify the amended IET

 

[Helvellyn]

Although the business case that got approved turned out to have a lot of falsehoods in it, regarding introduction dates and off-leasing the 222s during 2023 etc. If an extra 2 years had been factored into the build then potentially a better site nearby could have been an option over altering Etches Park

It's also questionable if the 810s would have been spec'd with so much diesel power if dates after the wires upgrade, and wires to nearly Leicester had been correct in the business case. Similarly would it have been cheaper to extend some platforms than redesign and then struggle to re certify the amended IET

To be fair the outline business case would have been part of the franchise bid put together in 2016-17, which DfT outlined the requirements for. Abellio will have bids what was needed to comply with the franchise agreement.

Since then we have had the pandemic. The original EMR plan was to have all their regional fleet replaced by 170s - that hasn't happened due to all units not being released, plus the Norwich-Liverpool route has remained with them in full, so they are keeping the 158s. The Connect route has its 360s but they have never yet run as the promised 12-cars and refurbishment is only due to start later this year after DfT approval last year. They will get 2+2 seating but the promised First Class is not happening. There are people who would have paid that premium but the fact it's not happening also makes me think 8-cars are here to stay.

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately 2 x 5-car at 260m would be too long to fit at St Pancras without interventions there.

So are there never going to be any services longer than 5 cars, albeit slightly longer carriages?

 

[HSTEd]

So are there never going to be any services longer than 5 cars, albeit slightly longer carriages?

The Class 810s have been redesigned to have 23m carriages so that they will fit.

But this has probably not aided their entry into service.

I must admit I have become very skeptical of doubling units without gangways - it imposes all sorts of staff related issues.
I not even sure its worth it for avoiding the marginal running expenses of extra vehicles with no additional staff

 

[43066]

I must admit I have become very skeptical of doubling units without gangways - it imposes all sorts of staff related issues.
I not even sure its worth it for avoiding the marginal running expenses of extra vehicles with no additional staff

It’s not quite clear what’s being said here. Is it your suggestion that it isn’t worth doubling length, and therefore capacity on trains, because one or two extra staff are needed?

That would be a most bizarre approach on the EMR IC network, where trains are increasingly regularly crush loaded.

 

[Bald Rick]

I must admit I have become very skeptical of doubling units without gangways - it imposes all sorts of staff related issues.

Excpet it doesn’t have to impose staff related issues. Plenty of examples where doubling (or trebling) untis with no gangways means no staff issues.

 

[WesternLancer]

Aren’t ScotRail now commencing procurement to replace the Inter7city HSTs?

One option for the Midland Mainline would be to secure those HSTs as a stop gap until the 800 units are ready and keep them long term to help relieve over crowding

 

[D365]

Aren’t ScotRail now commencing procurement to replace the Inter7city HSTs?

One option for the Midland Mainline would be to secure those HSTs as a stop gap until the 800 units are ready and keep them long term to help relieve over crowding

It doesn’t appear that ScotRail is procuring brand new units. But with the wink, I take it your posting is in jest.

 

[WesternLancer]

It doesn’t appear that ScotRail is procuring brand new units. But with the wink, I take it your posting is in jest.

It was. But then I say never rule out a good idea!

And there’s precedent. Surely the turbostars started on the mml, had them in Scotland then EMR have received a good number of internally clapped out ex ScotRail 170s

 

[bengolding]

I travelled in first class of an Azuma yesterday and it was light years ahead of EMR’s offering (as was the offering on the Pendo I went on a few months ago).

I fully get that it’s a relatively short journey from STP to Sheffield (arguably a regional express length of time) and that the DfT has always hated the East Midlands (ie a factor beyond the TOC’s control); however that is no excuse for such a poor offering.

I dearly hope the 810s do provide EMR’s IC passengers with the decent service they (well, we) dearly deserve; but I won’t be convinced until I see and experience them in the flesh.

Agreed. EMR in their infinite wisdom have permanently closed all their First Class Lounges at several stations. Speaking with staff on the ground who are harassed with short formed overcrowded services, the new trains will be a short reprieve. How many First Class seats will these have?

 

[43066]

Agreed. EMR in their infinite wisdom have permanently closed all their First Class Lounges at several stations. Speaking with staff on the ground who are harassed with short formed overcrowded services, the new trains will be a short reprieve. How many First Class seats will these have?

I’m not sure if they’ve given an official reason for the closure - it seems to have been one of those things that initially happened during Covid (to allow better “social distancing” for staff, when fewer people were travelling), and has then stuck.

The new trains will indeed only be a temporary reprieve given how busy the current services now are. That will be made all the worse by the fact they’ll be entering service years later than planned, with passenger numbers continuing to grow strongly in the intervening period.