South Western Railway Signalbox "not open"

[Sealink]

Is this poor planning, or maybe illness?
RealTimeTrains:

This service was cancelled between Petersfield and London Waterloo due to the signalbox not being open (OL).

From SWR:
Following signalling staff being unavailable between Guildford and Petersfield all lines have now reopened.

We were informed earlier that there was no signalling staff available between Guildford and Petersfield. This meant that all lines were blocked for almost an hour.

 

[800001]

Is this poor planning, or maybe illness (with no back-up!)?
RealTimeTrains:

This service was cancelled between Petersfield and London Waterloo due to the signalbox not being open (OL).

From SWR:
Following signalling staff being unavailable between Guildford and Petersfield all lines have now reopened.

We were informed earlier that there was no signalling staff available between Guildford and Petersfield. This meant that all lines were blocked for almost an hour.

They obviously had a back up as the signal back did open, if someone does go ill, it will take time to get a replacement to the box.

 

[Sealink]

They obviously had a back up as the signal back did open, if someone does go ill, it will take time to get a replacement to the box.

Of course. Have removed my comment about "no back up"

 

[mrcheek]

Probably took them an hour just to find a volunteer! I wouldnt want to be the guy who has to make all those phone calls trying to find someone on short notice, on a weekend

 

[800001]

Probably took them an hour just to find a volunteer! I wouldnt want to be the guy who has to make all those phone calls trying to find someone on short notice, on a weekend

Might even be the ‘LOM’ who has had to attend for duty.

 

[Towers]

Probably took them an hour just to find a volunteer! I wouldnt want to be the guy who has to make all those phone calls trying to find someone on short notice, on a weekend

That being said, you’d think that the resilience might be a tad better developed than that?!

 

[LAX54]

That being said, you’d think that the resilience might be a tad better developed than that?!

How would you deal with the situation ?

 

[D6130]

Is this poor planning, or maybe illness?
RealTimeTrains:

This service was cancelled between Petersfield and London Waterloo due to the signalbox not being open (OL).

From SWR:
Following signalling staff being unavailable between Guildford and Petersfield all lines have now reopened.

We were informed earlier that there was no signalling staff available between Guildford and Petersfield. This meant that all lines were blocked for almost an hour.

Presumably there was no relief immediately available for Haslemere box?....and of course it's a Network Rail signalbox, not South Western Railway's.

 

[Towers]

How would you deal with the situation ?

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

 

[Gloster]

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

Signalboxes like Haslemere are dotted around the country: do you have somebody at each box ready to takeover? That means double the number of signalmen, because you need to have one for each shift. Or do you have them at some central location and send them out when necessary?

 

[greenline712]

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

So, let's see . . . here are a couple of scenarios:
At 0600 the early signaller reported for work as normal. At 1000 they reported that they were unable to continue duty due to illness, and the box was closed.
At 1001 the local Operations Manager was notified; unfortunately they were in Portsmouth. They departed immediately, and reopened the box at 1100. Pretty smart working, IMHO!!
Alternatively, the OM contacted the late signaller (due to start at 1400); they agreed to come in to work early, but they live 40 minutes from Haslemere. The box reopened at 1100. Pretty smart working, IMHO!!


This is how the railway works, and probably always has. Unless there is a standby signaller on site at all times, there will always be a disruption to service. One hour seems pretty minimal to me.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Sickness, sudden family emergency, any one of several reasons. Those in the grade (as I once was) would make every attempt to phone in and report any problems, and then local MOM/relief would be called upon. As said above, having a relief person in situ at every location 24/7 just in case, is unrealistic.

 

[Omnishambles]

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

Standby capacity for train crew, let’s say booking on at 0600, 1300 and 1600 for instance would likely get swallowed up by standing vacancies in my experience

 

[sharpener]

As an interested member of the public who grew up on a main line out of Waterloo (New Malden) I thought that signal boxes had over the last few decades been amalgamated into regional signalling centres or whatever. And one of the advantages of this was that there would many signallers working on the same site who could to a greater or lesser extent cover for each other, so this kind of incident would not happen. It is a bit worrying to learn it is still not so.

 

[Gloster]

As an interested member of the public who grew up on a main line out of Waterloo (New Malden) I thought that signal boxes had over the last few decades been amalgamated into regional signalling centres or whatever. And one of the advantages of this was that there would many signallers working on the same site who could to a greater or lesser extent cover for each other, so this kind of incident would not happen. It is a bit worrying to learn it is still not so.

Large numbers have, but there are still several hundred (my very rough estimate) single-manned boxes dotted around the network. The number is slowly falling, but it takes time and money to replace them; it is complicated by some of the older panel boxes reaching the end of their life. Generally, preference has been given to important lines, but some, such as the Portsmouth Direct, have missed out: I believe that it was programmed to be done in late 2023.

 

[TSG]

Large numbers have, but there are still several hundred (my very rough estimate) single-manned boxes dotted around the network. The number is slowly falling, but it takes time and money to replace them; it is complicated by some of the older panel boxes reaching the end of their life. Generally, preference has been given to important lines, but some, such as the Portsmouth Direct, have missed out: I believe that it was programmed to be done in late 2023.

I believe it is re-programmed for October this year

 

[High Dyke]

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

Network Rail already do. That'll be us relief signallers. I don't have base rostered shifts, they are base rostered as spare turns. However, if I've been allocated a shift in one location then it may be difficult to move me, in the case of a colleague going sick at short notice elsewhere.

For example my closest work location is ten minutes away by road and the furthest I cover is 1h 40 minutes from my house. In the past I've had a phone call in the early hours of the morning with the question "how quick can you get to the location?" So, it isn't as straightforward as people may think.

 

[DelW]

As an interested member of the public who grew up on a main line out of Waterloo (New Malden) I thought that signal boxes had over the last few decades been amalgamated into regional signalling centres or whatever. And one of the advantages of this was that there would many signallers working on the same site who could to a greater or lesser extent cover for each other, so this kind of incident would not happen. It is a bit worrying to learn it is still not so.

Resignalling between Guildford and Havant* has been in progress for a couple of years (my estimate). A lot of the new signals are in place with white X signs over them, and there is new but covered-up equipment on station platforms. Work seems to be continuing during regular weekend closures for the foreseeable future, with cabling and connection work also being done during normal hours. IIRC the boxes being eliminated are Farncombe, Haslemere and Petersfield.

*(I'm not certain of the actual extents, it may not go as far as Havant)

 

[mrcheek]

That being said, you’d think that the resilience might be a tad better developed than that?!

well youre never going to have infinite cover lined up. All it takes is a cold to spread, and suddenly youre 3 or 4 people down

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As an interested member of the public who grew up on a main line out of Waterloo (New Malden) I thought that signal boxes had over the last few decades been amalgamated into regional signalling centres or whatever. And one of the advantages of this was that there would many signallers working on the same site who could to a greater or lesser extent cover for each other, so this kind of incident would not happen

Such matters can be more manageable with an area covered by an ASC (Area Signalling Centre), but one has to remember such places, ie Wimbledon, have several panels - different areas of control within the larger overall picture - that all have to be manned on each shift. The old Waterloo box of 1936 vintage that Wimbledon replaced (amongst other boxes) had three frames (panels in effect), Westinghouse mini lever design, and so there would have been three signallers working in liaison with one another on each shift even back then.
Where I worked was double manned on earlies and late's, but single manned on nights. In many ways it was a very simple arrangement, nothing as complicated as Waterloo by any means, and for many hours could be handled by one man, but there were occasions (each day) when the booked traffic levels required more than one person at the frame, one to work UP trains the other taking care of DOWN trains, and therefore the box was double manned. Wasteful perhaps during some hours of the day, but the only other alternative would have been to reduce the train service at peak times - not an option me thinks! We also made use of relief signallers on similar occasions to above as well as cover for pre planned leave etc.

Edited: PS, something I took a few years ago which sharpener may remember?

 

[Deepgreen]

As an interested member of the public who grew up on a main line out of Waterloo (New Malden) I thought that signal boxes had over the last few decades been amalgamated into regional signalling centres or whatever. And one of the advantages of this was that there would many signallers working on the same site who could to a greater or lesser extent cover for each other, so this kind of incident would not happen. It is a bit worrying to learn it is still not so.

Also my home station from years 0-20!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==

Such matters can be more manageable with an area covered by an ASC (Area Signalling Centre), but one has to remember such places, ie Wimbledon, have several panels - different areas of control within the larger overall picture - that all have to be manned on each shift. The old Waterloo box of 1936 vintage that Wimbledon replaced (amongst other boxes) had three frames (panels in effect), Westinghouse mini lever design, and so there would have been three signallers working in liaison with one another on each shift even back then.
Where I worked was double manned on earlies and late's, but single manned on nights. In many ways it was a very simple arrangement, nothing as complicated as Waterloo by any means, and for many hours could be handled by one man, but there were occasions (each day) when the booked traffic levels required more than one person at the frame, one to work UP trains the other taking care of DOWN trains, and therefore the box was double manned. Wasteful perhaps during some hours of the day, but the only other alternative would have been to reduce the train service at peak times - not an option me thinks! We also made use of relief signallers on similar occasions to above as well as cover for pre planned leave etc.

Edited: PS, something I took a few years ago which sharpener may remember?

That's more than a few years ago - I'd say about 20!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==

Of course, the issue of box manning has become more problematic as time has gone on - in days of yore, 'bobbies' would live near their boxes and staff were generally around to keep things running (even if it meant locking a 'box out in the interim). Now, staff are much more dispersed, and the decline of local 'boxes makes it harder to rustle up qualified people when needed at short notice. Having said that, I think this scenario is pretty rare.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

That's more than a few years ago - I'd say about 20!

Without checking I think it likely late 70's. After early turn at my own box, I sometimes used the afternoon to take a few pics of other boxes around and about before heading home. Was only ever for my own interest, so images aren't up to much in the eye of some, but they are part of my life. The attached I took on the same day as far as I recall.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Also there may be an issue of signallers moving elsewhere or vacancies not being filled in anticipation of box closures. It was a significant issue in the Northwich area prior to the 1980 resignalling, for example.

 

[Deepgreen]

Without checking I think it likely late 70's. After early turn at my own box, I sometimes used the afternoon to take a few pics of other boxes around and about before heading home. Was only ever for my own interest, so images aren't up to much in the eye of some, but they are part of my life. The attached I took on the same day as far as I recall.

Yes, that looks right. Elm Road crossing was my 'patch' as a boy - happy memories (if only my photography interest had bloomed earlier!). I remember watching as they replaced the gates with barriers. My wife gave me a 70s BR 'New Malden' station sign as a wedding present - sadly it was lost in a garage fire years ago (the plastic melted far more easily than enamel!). That's also such a good point about our photos - they were for us, as getting anything published was considered beyond our reach, whereas these days it is hugely easier to do so (given the right quality, of course).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

That's also such a good point about our photos - they were for us, as getting anything published was considered beyond our reach, whereas these days it is hugely easier to do so (given the right quality, of course).

Don't be so sure about it being 'hugely easier'. Old school closed shop still applies. I have experienced the same, backed up by someone far more experienced in such matters than I. Thankfully there are a handful of people who own their own websites relating to particular (railway) interests, and are far more open to accepting images that are less than perfect, but (in some cases) also very rare. If the latter aspect comes to upset some in the old established printed world, then perhaps they need to think again about their policies when it comes to accepting amateur material of less than perfect quality, particularly if it has rarity value.

 

[Deepgreen]

Don't be so sure about it being 'hugely easier'. Old school closed shop still applies. I have experienced the same, backed up by someone far more experienced in such matters than I. Thankfully there are a handful of people who own their own websites relating to particular (railway) interests, and are far more open to accepting images that are less than perfect, but (in some cases) also very rare. If the latter aspect comes to upset some in the old established printed world, then perhaps they need to think again about their policies when it comes to accepting amateur material of less than perfect quality, particularly if it has rarity value.

I was only speaking from my experience - I got into published (print) photographs in the digital age (with no preconceptions about any 'closed shop'), and now have had countless published in magazines like 'Steam Railway', 'The Railway Magazine', etc. I agree that quality appears to trump rarity regarding older shots, though, which is a shame, but then, as you say, we now have the outlet of various specialist web sites. I use 'Flickr' as well, which has a very large worldwide audience.

Perhaps we are dragging the thread off-topic, though...

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Perhaps we are dragging the thread off-topic, though...

My fault, and apologies, no offence meant ( to anyone).

 

[Horizon22]

Have a standby capacity of some sort readily available; that’s how train operators tend to manage?

And what if the standby was already utilised and also goes sick or cannot attend duty late notice? Or the standby has travel time and was only called late notice? It's rare but then again so is closing signal boxes!

 

[Deepgreen]

And what if the standby was already utilised and also goes sick or cannot attend duty late notice? Or the standby has travel time and was only called late notice? It's rare but then again so is closing signal boxes!

If a stand-by is also unavailable (surely a very rare eventuality) then that sees the box (and line?) shut for the duration.

 

[Gloster]

Do bear in mind that if a member of traincrew is missing, then their train(s) will be cancelled, but everything else will run; there is (presumably) still the option of switching traincrew around at the last minute so that the least important working ends up being the one that is cancelled. If a signalbox is closed because there is no signalman, then the whole service over that line stops.

As a signalman I have gone in when feeling foul and stuck it out. On one occasion I told the management that I would finish the shift but wouldn’t make it the following day; on another I rang in as soon as I booked on and said I wanted relief because of toothache: they found somebody in under two hours (I was off for a week because the dentist messed up). Signalmen know, or used to know, just how vital their presence was to the railway’s operation and wouldn’t miss out willingly. Nor would they dump the signalmen that were waiting to go home in it. One is the way to difficulties with the management, the other leads to unpopularity with your workmates.