TV show: 1980 Battle for the British Decker

[Nammer]

I believe Southdown and Provincial were the only companies not to receive Leyland Olympians new, during their NBC days? Or were there any others?

 

[JonathanH]

I believe Southdown and Provincial were the only companies not to receive Leyland Olympians new, during their NBC days? Or were there any others?

Alder Valley didn't get any 'bus' Olympians new, only coach versions for Londonlink services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe Southdown and Provincial were the only companies not to receive Leyland Olympians new, during their NBC days? Or were there any others?

Eastern Counties and East Kent also didn’t get NBC Olympians, and nor did Midland Red West or Southern National.

 

[DunsBus]

There was quite a bit of swapping both before and after privatisation.

Northern lost some to Strathtay in the 1985 reorganisation (4 Alexander, 6 ECW) and 2 ECW bodied examples to Clydeside/Western in 1989, including the ex-Midland one. The remaining ECW examples were transferred to Perth after privatisation. 5 of the dual-doored examples went to Cumberland in 1991 and a further 7 went to United Counties; these would have been surplus to requirements after Northern withdrew most of its Citybus network.

Highland lost a load when they were having a bit of bother with a certain competitor in Inverness - the Stagecoach handboook from 1992 shows 13 ex-Highland examples with Ribble.

Strathtay gained 6 from Fife and sold 4 newer ones to Kelvin Central in 1989, with KCB taking the other 4 Fife examples the same year (Scottish Bus Handbook 1989).

Eastern lost 8 to KCB.

Those are the ones that I know about anyway.

As for Lothian, I count 294 Leyland Olympians (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), so that easily makes it the largest Olympian purchaser in Scotland. Add a further 134 for the Volvo Olympians.

Eastern also lost 3 to Lowland with another one joining Lowland soon afterwards.

Lothian had 296 Leyland Olympians, though one (666) was burnt out at five years old, and there were two 770s. The first 770 went back to Leyland for use as a demonstrator soon after entering service, the second 770 replaced the first one.

 

[GusB]

Eastern also lost 3 to Lowland with another one joining Lowland soon afterwards.

Lothian had 296 Leyland Olympians, though one (666) was burnt out at five years old, and there were two 770s. The first 770 went back to Leyland for use as a demonstrator soon after entering service, the second 770 replaced the first one.

Thanks. I've only really got a few fleet books for records and the latest one I have was published in 1992. I have to admit that I lost interest for a few years as other matters took priority.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Lothian had 296 Leyland Olympians, though one (666) was burnt out at five years old, and there were two 770s. The first 770 went back to Leyland for use as a demonstrator soon after entering service, the second 770 replaced the first one.

Isn't that the one that ended up with Citybus in Hong Kong?

 

[Trainman40083]

There was quite a bit of swapping both before and after privatisation.

Northern lost some to Strathtay in the 1985 reorganisation (4 Alexander, 6 ECW) and 2 ECW bodied examples to Clydeside/Western in 1989, including the ex-Midland one. The remaining ECW examples were transferred to Perth after privatisation. 5 of the dual-doored examples went to Cumberland in 1991 and a further 7 went to United Counties; these would have been surplus to requirements after Northern withdrew most of its Citybus network.

Highland lost a load when they were having a bit of bother with a certain competitor in Inverness - the Stagecoach handboook from 1992 shows 13 ex-Highland examples with Ribble.

Strathtay gained 6 from Fife and sold 4 newer ones to Kelvin Central in 1989, with KCB taking the other 4 Fife examples the same year (Scottish Bus Handbook 1989).

Eastern lost 8 to KCB.

Those are the ones that I know about anyway.

As for Lothian, I count 294 Leyland Olympians (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), so that easily makes it the largest Olympian purchaser in Scotland. Add a further 134 for the Volvo Olympians.

I remember the reaction when Lothian bought ECW bodied Olympians, rather than the usual Alexander bodied.

 

[GusB]

I remember the reaction when Lothian bought ECW bodied Olympians, rather than the usual Alexander bodied.

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that council operators would have been obliged to go for the most cost-effective option. If Leyland/ECW put in a lower bid for bodywork, Lothian may not have had much choice. Let's not forget that municipal operators were still part of council transport departments at the time.

 

[Trainman40083]

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that council operators would have been obliged to go for the most cost-effective option. If Leyland/ECW put in a lower bid for bodywork, Lothian may not have had much choice. Let's not forget that municipal operators were still part of council transport departments at the time.

Very true. Public organisations have to tender and accept the lowest complaint bid

 

[Bishopstone]

Interesting as a record of how the national media has changed. This is not content that would be produced today, even on a niche satellite/Freeview channel.

We still get some programming which looks at issues from a consumer perspective, but it's rare to see in-depth analysis viewed from a business perspective. Regrettable, I think.

 

[DunsBus]

I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that council operators would have been obliged to go for the most cost-effective option. If Leyland/ECW put in a lower bid for bodywork, Lothian may not have had much choice. Let's not forget that municipal operators were still part of council transport departments at the time.

This was the case. Leyland quoted for a complete package, at a price that Alexander was unable to match.
Both ECW and Roe were struggling around that time and the complete package deals kept them in work - albeit briefly, with Roe closing in 1984 and ECW following suit just over two years later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2025 ==

Isn't that the one that ended up with Citybus in Hong Kong?

Indeed it was.

 

[overthewater]

There was quite a bit of swapping both before and after privatisation.

Northern lost some to Strathtay in the 1985 reorganisation (4 Alexander, 6 ECW) and 2 ECW bodied examples to Clydeside/Western in 1989, including the ex-Midland one. The remaining ECW examples were transferred to Perth after privatisation. 5 of the dual-doored examples went to Cumberland in 1991 and a further 7 went to United Counties; these would have been surplus to requirements after Northern withdrew most of its Citybus network.

Highland lost a load when they were having a bit of bother with a certain competitor in Inverness - the Stagecoach handboook from 1992 shows 13 ex-Highland examples with Ribble.

Strathtay gained 6 from Fife and sold 4 newer ones to Kelvin Central in 1989, with KCB taking the other 4 Fife examples the same year (Scottish Bus Handbook 1989).

Eastern lost 8 to KCB.

Those are the ones that I know about anyway.

As for Lothian, I count 294 Leyland Olympians (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), so that easily makes it the largest Olympian purchaser in Scotland. Add a further 134 for the Volvo Olympians.

Cheers for that information,

It seems you could buy without the area if it was cheaper.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Just to point out that the Gardner/Voith combination was not available in the Olympian. When first launched the engine options were Leyland TL11 followed very quickly by the Gardner 6LXB but all gearboxes were Leyland Hydracyclic. Cummins L10 engines and ZF Ecomat gearboxes came along a few years later. Voith gearboxes were only available when the Olympian had become a Volvo product by which time the Gardner engine had been made obsolete by emissions legislation and had ceased production.

10 of West Yorkshire's early Olympians (1818-1827) which were new in 1983 had the Gardner/Voith combination as were some others for NBC around the same time. Other operators of Voith equipped chassis were West Yorkshire PTE (5072-5073 new in 1983) and Greater Manchester PTE (3026-3035 new in 1984).

Sorry, I'd forgotten about this post and hadn't looked back at the thread until now, so thank you to @Steve440 for putting forward the prompt correction at #14.

The buses I drove for several years (and took such exception to!) were indeed ex West Yorkshire RCC ECW-bodied low-height examples that were transferred to Yorkshire Rider / First Calderline at Todmorden to permit withdrawal of the final low-height Fleetlines there. They took fleet numbers 5190-2, sorry I haven't got registration numbers or their former fleet numbers to hand. They proved a complete liability on the hilly routes in the area, often reduced to a crawl when carrying anything of a load. 5192 also had a long-running intermittent fault that would stop it engaging third (top!) gear even on the flat, which left you stuck at c25 mph on a fast section of the A646 until you could stop, engage neutral briefly then try again.

We also got four Olympians with Gardner engines and Leyland gearboxes (5517-20), three automatic and one semi-automatic, from the same source, originally with coach seats but gradually reseated due to vandalism. These were at least a little better, but still very lacking in performance compared with the Cummins/ZF combination.

 

[Trainman40083]

Sorry, I'd forgotten about this post and hadn't looked back at the thread until now, so thank you to @Steve440 for putting forward the prompt correction at #14.

The buses I drove for several years (and took such exception to!) were indeed ex West Yorkshire RCC ECW-bodied low-height examples that were transferred to Yorkshire Rider / First Calderline at Todmorden to permit withdrawal of the final low-height Fleetlines there. They took fleet numbers 5190-2, sorry I haven't got registration numbers or their former fleet numbers to hand. They proved a complete liability on the hilly routes in the area, often reduced to a crawl when carrying anything of a load. 5192 also had a long-running intermittent fault that would stop it engaging third (top!) gear even on the flat, which left you stuck at c25 mph on a fast section of the A646 until you could stop, engage neutral briefly then try again.

We also got four Olympians with Gardner engines and Leyland gearboxes (5517-20), three automatic and one semi-automatic, from the same source, originally with coach seats but gradually reseated due to vandalism. These were at least a little better, but still very lacking in performance compared with the Cummins/ZF combination.

5190 would have been FUM 494Y

 

[JonathanH]

Both ECW and Roe were struggling around that time and the complete package deals kept them in work - albeit briefly, with Roe closing in 1984 and ECW following suit just over two years later.

How, within the NBC, did things end up with Bristol and London Country getting the Roe bodied Olympians, and everyone else getting ECW ones? Was that a decision that would have been made centrally or by the operator? Was it all to do with Roe having a certain amount of capacity that couldn't fit at ECW?

 

[Steve440]

Sorry, I'd forgotten about this post and hadn't looked back at the thread until now, so thank you to @Steve440 for putting forward the prompt correction at #14.

The buses I drove for several years (and took such exception to!) were indeed ex West Yorkshire RCC ECW-bodied low-height examples that were transferred to Yorkshire Rider / First Calderline at Todmorden to permit withdrawal of the final low-height Fleetlines there. They took fleet numbers 5190-2, sorry I haven't got registration numbers or their former fleet numbers to hand. They proved a complete liability on the hilly routes in the area, often reduced to a crawl when carrying anything of a load. 5192 also had a long-running intermittent fault that would stop it engaging third (top!) gear even on the flat, which left you stuck at c25 mph on a fast section of the A646 until you could stop, engage neutral briefly then try again.

We also got four Olympians with Gardner engines and Leyland gearboxes (5517-20), three automatic and one semi-automatic, from the same source, originally with coach seats but gradually reseated due to vandalism. These were at least a little better, but still very lacking in performance compared with the Cummins/ZF combination.

Hi 5190-5192 were FUM 494/5/8Y former West Yorkshire 1819/20/3. I never drove a Voith gearbox example. I worked at Bramley for Yorkshire Rider and the only former West Yorkshire Olympian I remember driving was 5186 which had Hydracyclic gearbox. I was allocated this vehicle on 31st march 1990 which was actually the day before the formal transfer of the West Yorkshire feet to Yorkshire Rider. Up until then West Yorkshire had been operating as a separate unit since takeover by Rider Holdings in August 1989.

 

[Trainman40083]

How, within the NBC, did things end up with Bristol and London Country getting the Roe bodied Olympians, and everyone else getting ECW ones? Was that a decision that would have been made centrally or by the operator? Was it all to do with Roe having a certain amount of capacity that couldn't fit at ECW?

If I recall correctly, a bus operator would tell the NBC what they wanted, and got told what they would have. A lot of that would have depended upon capacity at production plants and the operator needs. At times, the preferred production capacity was not there, and certain operators may have got more what they really wanted.. Take Trent for example. They wanted Alexander Daimler Fleetlines (552-570) but with the NBC involvement they got ECW bodies. They wanted Leyland Atlanteans. They got some, all ECW bodied, but the P suffix batch should have had Park Royal bodies (who were late)...You look at operators such as Northern , who preferred highbridge buses, Atlanteans, VRs, even Metrobuses later on. Ribble got many Atlanteans with two body types.

 

[overthewater]

I wonder if this programme had some knock on effects for London Transport which resulted in the 1984 AVE program, with saw it evaluate different type of buses on the market, just like Sheffield?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I wonder if this programme had some knock on effects for London Transport which resulted in the 1984 AVE program, with saw it evaluate different type of buses on the market, just like Sheffield?

Not really - remember that they were tied to two bespoke designs that no one else was buying in the Titan and the Mk1 Metrobus. Made sense to evaluate other options

 

[DunsBus]

The thing which struck me about that programme was LT's David Quarmby trying (and failing, spectacularly) to justify its decision to withdraw DMSs once their initial seven-year-tickets were up, saying that it was cheaper and quicker to overhaul a Routemaster than a DMS, and blamed Daimler and Leyland for supplying duds. When it was pointed out by the BBC reporter who was interviewing Quarmby that Fleetlines worked well elsewhere and their unreliability in London was down to LT not adapting to them, he just squirmed and defended the indefensible. LT were well and truly exposed that night.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not really - remember that they were tied to two bespoke designs that no one else was buying in the Titan and the Mk1 Metrobus. Made sense to evaluate other options

That's a little inaccurate. While the Titan certainly could be described as bespoke for LT, and attracted few buyers elsewhere, the Metrobus was far from a London speciality. WMPTE was heavily involved in the initial development and eventually took over 1,100 Metrobuses (including Mk2s) compared to London's 1,440. GMT ended up with 220, South Yorks 170 (despite Dennis winning their own trial) and a number of other operators had decent sized fleets. Over 500 were sold to Hong Kong operators. Over 4,000 were built in total.

What would be fair is to point out that London insisted on continuing with new Mk1s long after the simplified Mk2 was made available. London operating conditions may be different to those elsewhere in the country but the real issue is that London can't really afford to have buses developed purely for London any more and this was arguably true already in the 1970s. But many London bus people had/have a hard time accepting this.

As for the programme that sparked this discussion it's a pity a follow up wasn't made a few years later to see just how the market developed in the face of the politically inspired upheaval that arose from deregulation. The one constant that seems to have survived is the importance of double-deck operation here and that despite everything there are still plenty of such buses being built in the UK even if significant components may be sourced from elsewhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's a little inaccurate. While the Titan certainly could be described as bespoke for LT, and attracted few buyers elsewhere, the Metrobus was far from a London speciality. WMPTE was heavily involved in the initial development and eventually took over 1,100 Metrobuses (including Mk2s) compared to London's 1,440. GMT ended up with 220, South Yorks 170 (despite Dennis winning their own trial) and a number of other operators had decent sized fleets. Over 500 were sold to Hong Kong operators. Over 4,000 were built in total.

What would be fair is to point out that London insisted on continuing with new Mk1s long after the simplified Mk2 was made available. London operating conditions may be different to those elsewhere in the country but the real issue is that London can't really afford to have buses developed purely for London any more and this was arguably true already in the 1970s. But many London bus people had/have a hard time accepting this.

As for the programme that sparked this discussion it's a pity a follow up wasn't made a few years later to see just how the market developed in the face of the politically inspired upheaval that arose from deregulation. The one constant that seems to have survived is the importance of double-deck operation here and that despite everything there are still plenty of such buses being built in the UK even if significant components may be sourced from elsewhere.

Er…what I meant was that by 1984, the Mk1 Metrobus was only being built for LT. From 1982, the Mk2 Metrobus was being built for WMPTE, Northern General, Strathclyde etc - I think the first Mk2's were X regs for West Mids. There was a period (1982-5?) when both models were being produced in parallel. However, whilst it had been purchased by several businesses, by 1984, the legacy Mk1 had become a bespoke model for LT. I may be of advancing years but I had many a trip on both Northern General and West Mids examples

Apologies for any misunderstanding

 

[DunsBus]

Er…what I meant was that by 1984, the Mk1 Metrobus was only being built for LT. From 1982, the Mk2 Metrobus was being built for WMPTE, Northern General, Strathclyde etc - I think the first Mk2's were X regs for West Mids. There was a period (1982-5?) when both models were being produced in parallel. However, whilst it had been purchased by several businesses, by 1984, the legacy Mk1 had become a bespoke model for LT. I may be of advancing years but I had many a trip on both Northern General and West Mids examples

Apologies for any misunderstanding

If anything, LT's insistence on buying Mk1 Metrobuses when everywhere else was buying Mk2s highlighted - once again - London's inability to let go of the past. There was a parallel to this in Scotland, when the SBG started buying semi-auto Leopards in the mid-seventies; Central SMT wouldn't have it and continued to buy the manual-gearbox version right up until 1979.

 

[GusB]

Highland lost a load when they were having a bit of bother with a certain competitor in Inverness - the Stagecoach handboook from 1992 shows 13 ex-Highland examples with Ribble.

Having sourced a slightly more up-to-date fleetbook (Scottish Bus Handbook, British Bus Publishing 1994 - I know, I'm really getting with the times), I can confirm that Highland had no Olympians left at that point. The only 'deckers left were the native T-registered ECW-bodied Fleetlines from 1978-79, a handful of ex-Midland (via Fife) Alexander-bodied Fleetlines and a few odd-balls; two Bristol VRTs that originated with the UK Atomic Energy Authority, one that started out with Tayside and a Fleetline whose life began with Lancashire United.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @overthewater to update

 

[overthewater]

In a strange twist the BBC has decided to upload the full programme itself, which also means a much wider audience will pick up on this programme. It still a very insightful and highly cultural programme. So If you missed it the first time, you can enjoy it now.

 

[LUYMun]

The original video on post 1 was turned to private, probably struck down for copyright reasons by the BBC, so for them to upload their own one is nice although without the intro titles as opposed to the original uploading (and can still be heard on the show's trailer the day prior)

 

[stevieinselby]

Wow, what a film!!
Some weird attitudes that help to explain the worst aspects of the British bus industry...a choice of chassis is a bad thing, one man (person) buses and buses with doors will never work in London etc. etc.

He wasn't saying that choice per se was a bad thing, but that in a declining industry there was going to be a limited market, and so lots of manufacturers fulfilling small orders wouldn't lead to the efficiencies or economies of scale that one or two larger manufacturers could do. Remember that this was off the back of British Leyland in the 1970s struggling because, among other things, it had lots of niche products all competing against each other, and the solution that had worked was to vastly streamline the range, so it isn't a completely daft idea.

And one-man operation of buses, especially in London, was a pretty big problem, which was why London buses went cashless in 2014 – having the driver issue fares was leading to unacceptably long dwell times at stops.

 

[citybus2500]

For anyone that didn't know watching that, they would get the impression that MAN and Scania had never built any double deckers!

 

[GusB]

For anyone that didn't know watching that, they would get the impression that MAN and Scania had never built any double deckers!

MAN has never supplied a decker to the UK market, though. As for Scania, you might want to watch the video again...