Penalty fare - but had valid ticket but app would not show ticket when checked

[unfortunate]

Hi I recently received a penalty fare for not being able to produce a valid ticket which I appealed against. The appeal did not go in my favour. I would like to know what to do next as I did purchase a ticket before travel. See below explanation.

I was asked by train inspector to show ticket on my return journey from Stratford to Witham. I went to my Trainline app to show the ticket but it wasn’t on there. I explained to the ticket inspector that I definitely purchased a return ticket in the morning prior to travel but he fined me and said I can pay now and appeal. I paid the fine on the spot and took details to appeal.

When I got home I check my bank account and my account was debit by Trainline at 7am for the amount of a return daily ticket between witham and Stratford. I contacted Trainline customer services and they sent me the ticket I bought. The ticket was an anytime return from Witham to Stratford with outbound journey at 7.34 am in the morning. With the bank statement showing the purchase at 7.00am and also the ticket showing anytime return with outbound trian at 7.34am (which I uploaded to the appeal) I was positive that the appeal service would see this is a technology issue and not me boarding a train without a valid ticket as I clearly bought a return prior to travel.

Unfortunately the appeal service still denied my appeal as I should have checked I had a valid ticket and be able to produce at inspection. I am annoyed and frustrated as I purchased a ticket but due to tech issue which is not my fault I could not evidence. It’s worth noting that my normal fare is £37.30 which I paid and the fine was £50 +22.30 (single fare). It’s crazy as I paid the fare in the morning. If I forgot to buy etc I would accept it but I feel given the evidence sent to the appeal panel they are being punitive and totally unreasonable

I can appeal again and iam looking for help on what to say and how to push back. Any input would be much appreciated

Thank you

 

[tram21]

First of all, do not worry. The first appeal doesn't go through 99.9% of the time, and the majority need to wait until the 3rd appeal to get a successful result. It's just how it works.

The experts will come along shortly with how to best word your appeal, and with other words of advice!

 

[unfortunate]

First of all, do not worry. The first appeal doesn't go through 99.9% of the time, and the majority need to wait until the 3rd appeal to get a successful result. It's just how it works.

The experts will come along shortly with how to best word your appeal, and with other words of advice!

Thank you @tram21 . Sorry I should have said this is my second appeal. First appeal i just provided attached evidence of tickets and bank statements without full detailed explanation and thought the case office just didn’t understand . In my second appeal I gave a detailed account of what happened and attached evidence of tickets but still computer says no ‍♂️. I should have not paid the fine and given details as I would be happy for this to go to court as common sense really should apply at some point ‍♂️

 

[jamiearmley]

Just slightly unrelated, but if this ever happens again, just open up the second of the two emails you receive from Trainline each and every time you buy a ticket - the one which says 'Your E-tickets for your journey'.

Then download the PDF file using the clickable button in the email - don't press the 'show tickets in app' button.

This is a good workaround for when the app fails - and it does fail more than you might think.

 

[jfollows]

Second appeal often appears to rubber stamp first appeal.
Keep on going!

It seems that, often, the third appeal is the only one that properly reads and considers the information given.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you @tram21 . Sorry I should have said this is my second appeal. First appeal i just provided attached evidence of tickets and bank statements without full detailed explanation and thought the case office just didn’t understand . In my second appeal I gave a detailed account of what happened and attached evidence of tickets but still computer says no ‍♂️. I should have not paid the fine and given details as I would be happy for this to go to court as common sense really should apply at some point ‍♂️

Before you appeal to the next stage post the draft of your appeal text here so experts can check it and help get your wording as good as it can be.

It might also help to list the wording from your previous appeals here along with the responses you received.

Remove any personal details and ref numbers.

 

[thejuggler]

Does Trainline not allow users to put tickets in the Apple/Google Wallet?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Remember that the rule is that you must be able to present your ticket when asked. Having bought it isn't sufficient - you need to be able to prove that at the time you're asked. Whether you've left a paper ticket in your other jacket, or your phone has a glitch which stops it showing an electronic ticket, I presume that's legally all the same ... you don't, as far as they're concerned, have a ticket you can show them; the reason isn't the railway's problem.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately the appeal service still denied my appeal as I should have checked I had a valid ticket and be able to produce at inspection.

They are correct to say this; the penalty fare was issued for a valid reason.

I am annoyed and frustrated as I purchased a ticket but due to tech issue which is not my fault I could not evidence.

Were you not sent an email? Did you check you had the ticket before boarding?

I can appeal again and iam looking for help on what to say and how to push back. Any input would be much appreciated

It's not that likely they will overturn the PF on the grounds you present. However, if you upload the whole notice (we need to see all of it!), with your personal details removed, we can see if the notice was completed properly and in line with the regulations which govern them. You may have an avenue of technical appeal.