December 2025 East Coast Timetable

[Bald Rick]

The ECML timetable affects Transpennine servcies via Huddersfield, and Northern services Leeds - Sheffield, and therefore naturally will affect Sheffield - Huddersfield.

 

[Killingworth]

The ECML timetable affects Transpennine servcies via Huddersfield, and Northern services Leeds - Sheffield, and therefore naturally will affect Sheffield - Huddersfield.

By that reasoning a lot of other services will inevitably be impacted although the full draft timetables for them haven't been revealed.

As an example the Sheffield - Doncaster services appear in Table 16 but not details of the various services beyond those points, like TPE South Pennine - or EMR Norwich - Liverpool. There are probably a lot more locally controversial details to come before it's all finalised.

 

[Starmill]

By that reasoning a lot of other services will inevitably be impacted although the full draft timetables for them haven't been revealed.

As an example the Sheffield - Doncaster services appear in Table 16 but not details of the various services beyond those points, like TPE South Pennine - or EMR Norwich - Liverpool. There are probably a lot more locally controversial details to come before it's all finalised.

It could just be that, say, Doncaster - Cleethorpes services don't need to move much by chance though, but Barnsley - Sheffield has seen some more invasive changes. I haven't actually checked that I'm just hypothesising.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They have a lot of PDF timetables on their website: https://ecmltimetable.info/timetables. The website indicates the timetables are draft.

Unless I'm missing something (and apologies if this has already been discussed) Durham seems to be a very big loser from all of this. Northbound there's 3-4tph but all within a 15-minute spell then nothing for 45 minutes. Southbound is a bit better.

That was my first impression. Especially for a station that always seems very busy for all services.

 

[JRT]

If it’s a 225, then only one door is open as they don’t have selective door-opening. If it’s an Azuma, then the appropriate doors along the platform are unlocked so you don’t have to just enter through the one door.

Just a thought, but won't they need a despatcher on platform 1 if more than 1 door is open?

 

[30907]

Just a thought, but won't they need a despatcher on platform 1 if more than 1 door is open?

The same person who despatches the 0636 on P3, presumably?

 

[MikeWM]

By that reasoning a lot of other services will inevitably be impacted although the full draft timetables for them haven't been revealed.

As an example the Sheffield - Doncaster services appear in Table 16 but not details of the various services beyond those points, like TPE South Pennine - or EMR Norwich - Liverpool. There are probably a lot more locally controversial details to come before it's all finalised.

GA too - for example the draft timetable has a northbound GN Kings Lynn service at Cambridge North at 1822, which is exactly when the GA LivSt-Ely service currently passes through non-stop.

Maybe this will just require minor retimings, but who knows?

 

[IrishDave]

GA too - for example the draft timetable has a northbound GN Kings Lynn service at Cambridge North at 1822, which is exactly when the GA LivSt-Ely service currently passes through non-stop.

Maybe this will just require minor retimings, but who knows?

As I understand it, the West Anglia side of GA gets a significant recast (particularly for the peaks) at the same time as the ECML recast, in order to enable Cambridge South to open - my understanding is that everything will stop at Cambridge South.

 

[WolvertonWorks]

BBC are reporting that less trains will be calling at Durham from December timetable change: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3j8z08g17o

"We recognise that timetable changes may not satisfy everyone, however the planned changes can be introduced reliably and will bring an additional six million seats on LNER services per year, provide faster services, and be of benefit to the greatest number of customers across the north," a spokesperson on behalf of LNER and Network Rail said.

Please move if in the wrong place.

 

[markydh]

There is zero benefit to customers across the north and its patronising in the extreme to suggest otherwise. The only place that benefits is Edinburgh, because there’s no way there needs to be 3 trains an hour from Newcastle to London.

 

[xotGD]

be of benefit to the greatest number of customers across the north

Jeremy Bentham running the railways these days?

Utilitarian timetabling.

 

[IanXC]

There is zero benefit to customers across the north and its patronising in the extreme to suggest otherwise. The only place that benefits is Edinburgh, because there’s no way there needs to be 3 trains an hour from Newcastle to London.

Sorry what now?

So there is no benefit to "customers across the north" from removing London to Edinburgh passengers from the trains that call at Alnmouth/Morpeth/Durham/Darlington/Northallerton/York, which inevitably creates more capacity for, checks notes, "customers across the north".

 

[mityellow]

Sorry what now?

So there is no benefit to "customers across the north" from removing London to Edinburgh passengers from the trains that call at Alnmouth/Morpeth/Durham/Darlington/Northallerton/York, which inevitably creates more capacity for, checks notes, "customers across the north".

Personally I'm not going to claim there's no benefit to the wider north, but most of the benefit is for Newcastle and Edinburgh to London journeys - it's very much a negative for Durham (my local station).

Newcastle is the main flow from Durham and the only bigger flow in the North East of England is Newcastle to London (Durham-Newcastle was the biggest none-London flow on the ECML at all in 22-23). It's bigger than all the flows listed above other than York-London. [All data sourced here: https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/]. So whilst it's not the London cash cow it is important to a lot of people.

And yet, peak morning services leaving Durham to Newcastle 8am-9am are to go from 4 trains (previously 5) and 21 carriages to 7 carriages total. I catch the 08:22 on a regular basis and it's heaving - I think it's often the most boarded at Durham in the entire day and yet completely gone from the new timetable. Plus there's then a 47 minute gap most hours in Durham-Newcastle arrivals at Newcastle and no improvement to the poor service Newcastle to Durham after 8pm. This is a journey that suffers from not being turn up and go since it's the waiting time which makes the car quicker.

The proposed timetable reduces services Durham to Edinburgh by approximately 40% and also significantly decreases the services to/from London on a Sunday. I don't currently struggle getting seats to London when I have to travel south, unlike the regular lack of seats to/from Leeds. My understanding is the second TPE to Leeds each hour cannot return unless infrastructure improvements are made.

I already know of people who've chosen to live elsewhere due to the poor train service to Newcastle - this new timetable will only increase that. Timetables are complex, but things like 8am-9am in the morning having less trains than the standard hour suggest there's been little consideration of an important regional flow even when it wouldn't harm London (it's before most of the trains ex-London have got there).

 

[Failed Unit]

Personally I'm not going to claim there's no benefit to the wider north, but most of the benefit is for Newcastle and Edinburgh to London journeys - it's very much a negative for Durham (my local station).

Newcastle is the main flow from Durham and the only bigger flow in the North East of England is Newcastle to London (Durham-Newcastle was the biggest none-London flow on the ECML at all in 22-23). It's bigger than all the flows listed above other than York-London. [All data sourced here: https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/]. So whilst it's not the London cash cow it is important to a lot of people.

And yet, peak morning services leaving Durham to Newcastle 8am-9am are to go from 4 trains (previously 5) and 21 carriages to 7 carriages total. I catch the 08:22 on a regular basis and it's heaving - I think it's often the most boarded at Durham in the entire day and yet completely gone from the new timetable. Plus there's then a 47 minute gap most hours in Durham-Newcastle arrivals at Newcastle and no improvement to the poor service Newcastle to Durham after 8pm. This is a journey that suffers from not being turn up and go since it's the waiting time which makes the car quicker.

The proposed timetable reduces services Durham to Edinburgh by approximately 40% and also significantly decreases the services to/from London on a Sunday. I don't currently struggle getting seats to London when I have to travel south, unlike the regular lack of seats to/from Leeds. My understanding is the second TPE to Leeds each hour cannot return unless infrastructure improvements are made.

I already know of people who've chosen to live elsewhere due to the poor train service to Newcastle - this new timetable will only increase that. Timetables are complex, but things like 8am-9am in the morning having less trains than the standard hour suggest there's been little consideration of an important regional flow even when it wouldn't harm London (it's before most of the trains ex-London have got there).

There are some interesting points, the commuter service I would agree is a concern an I hope that it is possible to improve this by inserting stops in existing services.

Durham - Edinburgh direct doing over to XC only (pretty much) would be disappointing if I lived in Durham. The trains in my opinion are not as comfortable and the quality of service isn’t as good. I would not be happy to lose the LNER service as it would be the one I would prefer to use and pay slightly more on.

I think your point about getting a seat on the London trains will improve. They are starting at Newcastle where the demand will be spread over multiple trains anyway. So I think your ability to get a seat heading to London will be one of your few wins.

 

[Chrism20]

There is also currently plenty of rumbling in Dunbar at the moment regarding commuter services into Edinburgh with proposed gaps similar to Durham/Newcastle

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think your point about getting a seat on the London trains will improve. They are starting at Newcastle where the demand will be spread over multiple trains anyway. So I think your ability to get a seat heading to London will be one of your few wins.

Suspect they'll use the "unfair fares" "trial" to price people from Newcastle onto the Newcastle starters to keep seats free for Edinburgh passengers on the others, too.

 

[Failed Unit]

Suspect they'll use the "unfair fares" "trial" to price people from Newcastle onto the Newcastle starters to keep seats free for Edinburgh passengers on the others, too.

With the 70 minute flex - people will just book the Newcastle starter and then move to the more expensive fast train

 

[cle]

How much Durham-Edinburgh traffic is there, and is it daily (commuting?) or more irrregular - which is still served.

It does seem that Durham-Newcastle having the best service possible is the priority. And it's an easy enough change for multiple Edinburgh services per hour.

 

[Kite159]

With the 70 minute flex - people will just book the Newcastle starter and then move to the more expensive fast train

Agreed, especially if booking that 'flex' fare for the stopper is cheaper than the regular advance for the fast service. Assuming they can get a free seat reservation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Every time I've looked at the timetable I've though, Durham is getting a rough deal here and noticed something else that screws them over. @mityellow with those stats makes it look even worse.

Has there been much local mutterings? I haven't seen much.

 

[A S Leib]

The only place that benefits is Edinburgh, because there’s no way there needs to be 3 trains an hour from Newcastle to London.

4 tph in some hours, including Lumo. I think there is the need for that many, but it doesn't quite feel right to have so many more compared to other destinations despite passenger demand (including flights) when Newcastle – Manchester's still on 1 tph. I'd have preferred to have seen HS2 east and 2 tph each via York and Birmingham Interchange, which would have taken years to implement but which would at least have solved North East – Birmingham capacity as well.

Suspect they'll use the "unfair fares" "trial" to price people from Newcastle onto the Newcastle starters to keep seats free for Edinburgh passengers on the others, too.

Which would sound like a worse deal for Newcastle to Doncaster, Newark and Peterborough (and York to Newark), which will have one of the Edinburgh services (and the York / Lincoln starters) and not the Newcastle terminator.

 

[MatthewHutton]

4 tph in some hours, including Lumo. I think there is the need for that many, but it doesn't quite feel right to have so many more compared to other destinations despite passenger demand (including flights) when Newcastle – Manchester's still on 1 tph. I'd have preferred to have seen HS2 east and 2 tph each via York and Birmingham Interchange, which would have taken years to implement but which would at least have solved North East – Birmingham capacity as well.

Which would sound like a worse deal for Newcastle to Doncaster, Newark and Peterborough (and York to Newark), which will have one of the Edinburgh services (and the York / Lincoln starters) and not the Newcastle terminator.

The difference on the east coast is that there is capacity to do more (at least in the obvious places) whereas Manchester Piccadilly is pretty much full by any measure.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There is also currently plenty of rumbling in Dunbar at the moment regarding commuter services into Edinburgh with proposed gaps similar to Durham/Newcastle

Thats down to ScotRail who haven't exactly pushed the service provision here to the same level as Nth Berwick

 

[ainsworth74]

Has there been much local mutterings? I haven't seen much.

It's had some covering in the BBC but not sure if there's much beyond that (it's not quite my patch so I don't pay close attention!):

Durham could lose almost half of its direct train services to Edinburgh if timetable changes are approved.

Currently, about 29 services travel on a weekday between the city and the Scottish capital, but that could drop to 17 if new timings go ahead.

The changes also include the loss of a peak time LNER service, which is popular with commuters to Newcastle.

In a joint statement, LNER and Network Rail said while timetable changes "may not satisfy everyone", they would benefit "the greatest number of customers across the north".

Currently about 15 LNER services to Edinburgh call at Durham every day, approximately one every hour.

Under the plans the majority of these would be removed, although the BBC understands three will still stop at the city at 06:33, 07:49 and 22:49.

Peter Walker, from rail user group North East Coastliners, said the situation needed "urgent attention and action".

"Each hour's other service will call at Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Doncaster, York and Darlington but not Durham, whereas its equivalent in the current timetable does," Mr Walker said.

"As a result, Durham will, for most of the operating day, have no mainline LNER services to further north than Newcastle."

[...]

However, some commuters have been concerned about the removal of a peak time LNER service to Edinburgh, which calls at Durham at 08:22 and arrives in Newcastle just after 08:30.

It means there will be only two trains leaving the city for Newcastle between 08:00 and 09:00, with likely a total of seven carriages between them.

Commuter Matthew Foskett has been breaking down the planned timetable changes and trying to raise awareness among passengers.

Mr Foskett, who travels to his workplace in Newcastle by train at least two days a week, hopes some of the proposals could be reconsidered.

He said under the new plans there would be a 47-minute gap between arrivals in Newcastle almost every hour, "which would really affect people".

"If the service gets worse, you'll lose passengers, and we all know how busy the roads are, you don't want more people driving into Newcastle," he said.

"Sometimes I cycle to Newcastle, that takes an hour and 15 minutes. If there's a 45-minute gap in the trains and it takes 15 minutes on the train, it gets quite close, time wise.

"I might as well cycle rather than getting the train, which is crazy."

A spokesperson on behalf of LNER and Network Rail said they had worked closely with other rail operators to ensure "strong local and national connectivity" in the planned timetable.

Durham to Edinburgh train services face cuts under timetable changes

The proposed changes to direct services between the two cities are due to be made in December.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Kite159]

"Strong Local connectivity"

Unless you wanted to travel between Newark & Retford. 7 coaches from Durham to Newcastle in prime peak time is just asking for trouble, but then whenever did LNER care about those pesky local passengers wanting to use their airplane on rails.

 

[MatthewHutton]

There are some interesting points, the commuter service I would agree is a concern an I hope that it is possible to improve this by inserting stops in existing services.

Durham - Edinburgh direct doing over to XC only (pretty much) would be disappointing if I lived in Durham. The trains in my opinion are not as comfortable and the quality of service isn’t as good. I would not be happy to lose the LNER service as it would be the one I would prefer to use and pay slightly more on.

I think your point about getting a seat on the London trains will improve. They are starting at Newcastle where the demand will be spread over multiple trains anyway. So I think your ability to get a seat heading to London will be one of your few wins.

Assuming they add a ~7am cross country service from Leeds to Edinburgh to replace the 7am Leeds to Aberdeen LNER - or they reinstate that one - then service will be maintained.

And don’t forget journey times are also going to improve as well - which is an advantage. Durham-London will be a bit faster.

And yeah the cross country trains are a bit **** now, but hopefully they will electrify more of the cross country lines and/or buy some hybrid trains to replace them which hopefully should be nicer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2025 ==

"Strong Local connectivity"

Unless you wanted to travel between Newark & Retford. 7 coaches from Durham to Newcastle in prime peak time is just asking for trouble, but then whenever did LNER care about those pesky local passengers wanting to use their airplane on rails.

Faster London-Scotland trains is also important and hopefully you reduce the number of flights and increase the railways overall revenues by speeding it up.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn’t Durham have a northern stopping service to Newcastle in the morning peak? Is that still there in the Dec 2025 timetable?

 

[Failed Unit]

Doesn’t Durham have a northern stopping service to Newcastle in the morning peak? Is that still there in the Dec 2025 timetable?

Yes to both questions, not sure how long it is. If it is 2 cars it will be a little cosy.

 

[A S Leib]

Doesn’t Durham have a northern stopping service to Newcastle in the morning peak? Is that still there in the Dec 2025 timetable?

I think the 06:41 from Durham ex-Middlesbrough's staying, but not the 07:42 or 08:40 from Saltburn to Carlisle that I can see.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Doesn’t Durham have a northern stopping service to Newcastle in the morning peak? Is that still there in the Dec 2025 timetable?

Yeah, there’s a 7:24, 7:33, 7:49, 8:07 and an 8:39.

This is as per https://ecmltimetable.info/assets/timetable-extracts/10a. 2025 North Trans-Pennine SX.pdf

This is against 7:27, 7:42, 8:02, 8:22 and 8:40 today. I mean to be honest if they re-add the 8:22 which is definitely a gap then the service is actually improved.