TV show: 1980 Battle for the British Decker

[overthewater]

From BBC One 1980, a current affairs show, which looks at the interesting insight into the challenges facing the bus manufacturing industry in 1980. Features the then-new bus types, the Leyland Titan and MCW Metrobus, and includes footage of the Barnsley scrapyards doing away with DMS Fleetlines! From BBC Genome: The double-decker bus is as British an institution as fish and chips or cricket, and, as the Empire expanded, so did the market for these peculiarly British products. Today, the United Kingdom satisfies 90 per cent of the world's demand for double-decker buses. But, as the world energy crisis expands, Britain's supremacy in the market is under threat. At home, Government policy looks set to reduce demand for new double-deckers and whilst British manufacturers work out how to handle that crisis foreign manufacturers are gearing up to challenge us in the rest of the world. Confident that everyone needs more rather than fewer double-deckers, both the Swedes and the Germans are even developing plans to bring their double-deckers to Britain. Judith Hann and Michael Rodd investigate why Britain's new generation of super double-deckers face problems, report on the new tactics of our foreign competitors and meet the British bus operators who say they may have to buy foreign to 'gee up our own industry'.

Its a very insightful programme and give a rather honest view to everyone. Did the Chinese buy alot of Deckers from the UK in the 1980s? I know Hong Kong took loads and around 300 odd ailsa went to Indonesia. I'm also surprised London transport didn't sell off all of the DMS Fleetlines..

 

[PG]

Thanks, an interesting gem which I hadn't seen before. No mention of the Bristol VR or Leyland Atlantean, so obviously the BBC were steered away (pun intended ) from them by Leyland. Had to chuckle when the chap from GMPTE was pressed on what bus he wanted but couldn't get hold of - I bet he really wanted to say the Atlantean! Also good to see the B45 prototype, which as the Olympian, went on to become the worlds best selling double decker bus.

 

[GusB]

Its a very insightful programme and give a rather honest view to everyone. Did the Chinese buy alot of Deckers from the UK in the 1980s? I know Hong Kong took loads and around 300 odd ailsa went to Indonesia. I'm also surprised London transport didn't sell off all of the DMS Fleetlines..

I'm not sure that it is an honest view; London certainly didn't get on well with the Fleetline but other operators didn't seem to have the same problems with them. Unfortunately, the dumping of a large number of fairly young Fleetlines on to the second-hand market had a significant effect on new bus sales at a time of recession and the gradual cutting of the bus grant.

Overall, I don't think that the British double-decker did too badly over the years. As far as Leyland was concerned, it definitely suffered from having too many products competing in the same sector; at one point VR, Fleetline, Atlantean, Titan and Olympian were all being built at the same time. That's five different models from one manufacturer! The range was eventually slimmed down with the latter two remaining and finally the Olympian was the only double-decker available from that stable.

In the meantime we had the Ailsa, the Scania Metropolitan, the MCW Metrobus and the ill-fated Foden NC, along with the Dominator and the Jubilant from Dennis.

Hong Kong, Indonesia and Singapore were big export markets, as were Iraq and Iran. Australia also took a fair few Atlanteans.

We're still fairly good at exporting - Hong Kong has been a steady customer for a few decades and we've recently sold into European markets and the US. With the emergence of the likes of Yutong the Far East may not be so lucrative in the future, but I don't think we're done just yet.

 

[Trainman40083]

I recall at the time, Leyland had taken over manufacturers Bristol and Daimler, and wanted to replace the Daimler Fleetline, Bristol VR and Leyland Atlantean with just the Leyland Titan. Whilst London had a fair few, few other operators showed much interest, many preferring the simpler Olympian. Seemed to be a number of issues at bodybuilder Park Royal too, helped MCW with the Metrobus. For some manufacturers who were happy with what we t before, they decided to go down a different line. The Scottish Bus Group had very few new Olympians. It gave alternative manufacturers a leg up with sales. A classic case of where a manufacturer dictates to the customer what they will buy, rather than understand what the customer really wants. I guess the National Bus Company had little choice, but various trials suggested they might want something different.

 

[overthewater]

I bet if it was six year later London transport could have sold all of the fleet lines off new operators. Lets be fair local politics played a part in what got brought. West midland got 40 Ailsa, and wanted more but they got told no, buy local.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Got to remember that politics played a huge role in so many aspects. Everyone was tied to local allegiances, not just West Midlands PTE. Had the Fleetline still been made at Coventry, would Ailsas have even been an option?

Yes, the Titan was regarded as the great hope initially but the delivery times were so protracted because Park Royal had such bad productivity (allied to appalling industrial relations). Apparently, they should have been building 7 a week (and they wanted to build 14) but in fact, it was 1 or 2 a week, which is what @Trainman40083 is alluding to?
The requirement to have a lower overall height was also a factor against the Titan and so the Olympian was conceived as a lower and simpler concept.

At @GusB is also right to point out the wider circumstances. The bus grant had been used to replace many of the half cabs by 1980 with large numbers of vehicles arriving in the mid to late 1970s but that grant was being withdrawn. At the same time, the National Bus Co/Scottish Bus Group cuts saw fleets declining across the country though some did, of course, take ex London DMS's (as did several others like Derby and WMPTE) in order to speed up the exit of the last few halfcabs/add extra decker capacity to remove single decks on lower frequencies.

It was certainly an interesting time.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I remember it being broadcast at the time, just short of my 18th birthday. I had already then ridden on Metrobuses in London and Manchester, pus I think just one ride on a Titan of Grater Manchester Transport (GMT). I was quite impressed with the styling of the Metrobus, but apart from novelty value to spotters, I didn't see any great improvement over the GMT 'standard' Atlanteans and Fleetlines from a passenger viewpoint.

Of course I didn't then know I would that a couple of years later I would occasionally conduct GMT's Metrobuses and grow to detest them with a passion. Nor that the Titan would, as mentioned upthread, be developed into the Olympian which eventually I would find a pleasure to drive with the right engine and gearbox (Cummins / ZF). However, fitted with the Gardner / Voith combination also used in the Metrobus, it became a complete pig.

 

[Steve440]

I remember it being broadcast at the time, just short of my 18th birthday. I had already then ridden on Metrobuses in London and Manchester, pus I think just one ride on a Titan of Grater Manchester Transport (GMT). I was quite impressed with the styling of the Metrobus, but apart from novelty value to spotters, I didn't see any great improvement over the GMT 'standard' Atlanteans and Fleetlines from a passenger viewpoint.

Of course I didn't then know I would that a couple of years later I would occasionally conduct GMT's Metrobuses and grow to detest them with a passion. Nor that the Titan would, as mentioned upthread, be developed into the Olympian which eventually I would find a pleasure to drive with the right engine and gearbox (Cummins / ZF). However, fitted with the Gardner / Voith combination also used in the Metrobus, it became a complete pig.

Having driven a few MCW Metrobuses of Yorkshire Rider in my time, although the brakes could be tricky to master (an understatement) I found them quite agreeable once you got used to the braking system. They were faster than anything else we had until the arrival of the Scania BR112DH.

 

[GusB]

The Scottish Bus Group had very few new Olympians. It gave alternative manufacturers a leg up with sales. A classic case of where a manufacturer dictates to the customer what they will buy, rather than understand what the customer really wants. I guess the National Bus Company had little choice, but various trials suggested they might want something different.

The SBG actually had a fair amount of new Olympians:

Northern	88
Eastern	55
Fife	10
Strathtay	9
Central	10
Highland	24
Lowland	2
Midland	1

I make that 199 (figures from buslistsontheweb.co.uk - any errors will be mistakes in my counting) - not as many as the National Bus Company, but not an insignificant number.

 

[Trainman40083]

The SBG actually had a fair amount of new Olympians:

Northern	88
Eastern	55
Fife	10
Strathtay	9
Central	10
Highland	24
Lowland	2
Midland	1

I make that 199 (figures from buslistsontheweb.co.uk - any errors will be mistakes in my counting) - not as many as the National Bus Company, but not an insignificant number.

I was, perhaps, thinking of when the SBG as such was broken up, like the NBC was. I would think many of those detailed were quite late on.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was, perhaps, thinking of when the SBG as such was broken up, like the NBC was. I would think many of those detailed were quite late on.

I think the vast majority were 1982-1986

Eastern, I think, had more (LL99-163) including ECW ones. Northern had many too

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Wow, what a film!!
Some weird attitudes that help to explain the worst aspects of the British bus industry...a choice of chassis is a bad thing, one man (person) buses and buses with doors will never work in London etc. etc.
Volvo and Scania were held back in early years (as several commentators have mentioned) by local political pressure... you can't buy that, it's not British.
In fairness there wasn't a bad bus among them, except possibly the Foden.
The Titan was good, as anyone lucky enough to have one delivered would tell you. The Metrobus was decent as long as you could stop the body rotting away. The Scania 112 and 113 and Volvo Ailsa and Citybus made engineers cry because they weren't allowed to buy any more.
The highlight has to be the sound of the Olympian... when they were new they were so smooth sounding... takes me back to a school trip many years ago on an almost new East Yorkshire bus... nice!!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Of course I didn't then know I would that a couple of years later I would occasionally conduct GMT's Metrobuses and grow to detest them with a passion. Nor that the Titan would, as mentioned upthread, be developed into the Olympian which eventually I would find a pleasure to drive with the right engine and gearbox (Cummins / ZF). However, fitted with the Gardner / Voith combination also used in the Metrobus, it became a complete pig.

Just to point out that the Gardner/Voith combination was not available in the Olympian. When first launched the engine options were Leyland TL11 followed very quickly by the Gardner 6LXB but all gearboxes were Leyland Hydracyclic. Cummins L10 engines and ZF Ecomat gearboxes came along a few years later. Voith gearboxes were only available when the Olympian had become a Volvo product by which time the Gardner engine had been made obsolete by emissions legislation and had ceased production.

As such double deckers with Gardner/Voith were just the Metrobus and its contemporary Dennis Dominator. The programme mentioned the South Yorkshire Route 51 trial and the interviewed manager was rather reticent to admit that the winner was Dennis rather than either model being featured in the programme. Of course most of South Yorkshire's Dominators had the the more powerful Rolls-Royce Eagle engine rather than the Gardner.

From a passenger's point of view I always preferred the Dominator as the air suspension seemed to perform rather better than on other vehicle types and the transmission whine was less obvious than on the Metrobus. However I later learned that maintenance staff were not fans; apparently any gearbox repair necessitated removing the whole engine first.

Of course the programme makers couldn't foresee the future but deregulation in 1986 pretty much turned the industry on its head. The subsequent, and short-lived, minibus boom helped to ensure that it would be many years before a UK manufacturer tried to develop a new model double deck chassis. And while 1970s Leyland unsuccessfully tried to convince operators that integral vehicles (National, Titan) were the way forward today it appears the concept of operators choosing their own chassis/body combination is fading away.

 

[Steve440]

Just to point out that the Gardner/Voith combination was not available in the Olympian. When first launched the engine options were Leyland TL11 followed very quickly by the Gardner 6LXB but all gearboxes were Leyland Hydracyclic. Cummins L10 engines and ZF Ecomat gearboxes came along a few years later. Voith gearboxes were only available when the Olympian had become a Volvo product by which time the Gardner engine had been made obsolete by emissions legislation and had ceased production.

As such double deckers with Gardner/Voith were just the Metrobus and its contemporary Dennis Dominator. The programme mentioned the South Yorkshire Route 51 trial and the interviewed manager was rather reticent to admit that the winner was Dennis rather than either model being featured in the programme. Of course most of South Yorkshire's Dominators had the the more powerful Rolls-Royce Eagle engine rather than the Gardner.

From a passenger's point of view I always preferred the Dominator as the air suspension seemed to perform rather better than on other vehicle types and the transmission whine was less obvious than on the Metrobus. However I later learned that maintenance staff were not fans; apparently any gearbox repair necessitated removing the whole engine first.

Of course the programme makers couldn't foresee the future but deregulation in 1986 pretty much turned the industry on its head. The subsequent, and short-lived, minibus boom helped to ensure that it would be many years before a UK manufacturer tried to develop a new model double deck chassis. And while 1970s Leyland unsuccessfully tried to convince operators that integral vehicles (National, Titan) were the way forward today it appears the concept of operators choosing their own chassis/body combination is fading away.

10 of West Yorkshire's early Olympians (1818-1827) which were new in 1983 had the Gardner/Voith combination as were some others for NBC around the same time. Other operators of Voith equipped chassis were West Yorkshire PTE (5072-5073 new in 1983) and Greater Manchester PTE (3026-3035 new in 1984).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When first launched the engine options were Leyland TL11 followed very quickly by the Gardner 6LXB but all gearboxes were Leyland Hydracyclic.

The first ones were a mix of Gardner and Leyland engines. The first couple, Q246FVT and DBV100W, were Gardners.

One of the real odd moments was that in 1986, when the minibus revolution was already in full flow with the totemic conversions of Exeter and Weston super Mare networks as well as other locations, Leyland launched the DAB-engineered Lion decker. Never travelled on one and am assured they were flying machines, but talk about not reading the market!

It was interesting that the NBC indulged in operational trials with Ailsas and Metropolitans in the late 1970s, and then Metrobuses and Dominators in 1979/80, both in the Medway Towns, and a direct comparison in the Potteries between a Foden NC, a Dominator and a VR - the latter was renumbered from 686 to 600 to compliment the Dominator (700) and Foden (700). Don't know how or if that could've influenced things but Northern General quickly received Metrobuses only a few months after Maidstone and District.

 

[GusB]

Northern Scottish also standardised on Gardner/Voith Olympians after a while; the earlier X- and Y-registered batches were hydracyclic (the latter having fully-automatic control), but the rest had 3-speed Voiths. After a time (from 1985 from what I can see), the gearbox option was indicated in the chassis code - eg, ONLXB/1RV or ONLXB/1RH (ZF later being indicated by a Z, strangely enough )

 

[Steve440]

Northern Scottish also standardised on Gardner/Voith Olympians after a while; the earlier X- and Y-registered batches were hydracyclic (the latter having fully-automatic control), but the rest had 3-speed Voiths. After a time (from 1985 from what I can see), the gearbox option was indicated in the chassis code - eg, ONLXB/1RV or ONLXB/1RH (ZF later being indicated by a Z, strangely enough )

Trent was another NBC Gardner/Voith customer with 712-723 new in 1985 (some of their earlier ones may have been but I'm not sure). South Wales had 901-907 also new in 1985 but with a Cummins/Voith combination. Northern General also chose the Cummins/Voith option for 44 new in 1985.

 

[Bornin1980s]

So buses in 1980 were less reliable than their simpler predecessors, because there was more to go wrong? Are modern buses any more reliable?

 

[Leyland Bus]

One of the real odd moments was that in 1986, when the minibus revolution was already in full flow with the totemic conversions of Exeter and Weston super Mare networks as well as other locations, Leyland launched the DAB-engineered Lion decker. Never travelled on one and am assured they were flying machines, but talk about not reading the market!

Ermm, The Volvo Citybus would like a word!


On the subject of Voith boxed Olympians, Greater Manchester Transport wanted to buy the Gardner/Voith combination for their Olympians (following the successful trial batch) but Leyland management offered GMT an irresistible discount on chassis' if they bought them with Hydracyclics instead!

In 1984, Leyland managed to persuade GMT to swap its last 60 Atlantean chassis for Olympian ones as they were desperate to end production of the AN68 as it didn't meet European noise legislation and even had to be granted a 12 month extension on compliance as they had so many orders left to fulfil... Ironically, they then received a huge glut of export orders, so Atlantean chassis' were churned out well into 1986!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ermm, The Volvo Citybus would like a word!

Ahem... the Citybus was a B10M chassis, and the first deckers one was built in 1981 with orders in earnest from 1984. A late development granted but not as late to the party as the Lion that sold 32 examples...

 

[Leyland Bus]

Ahem... the Citybus was a B10M chassis, and the first deckers one was built in 1981 with orders in earnest from 1984. A late development granted but not as late to the party as the Lion that sold 32 examples...

Yes but the Lion was introduced as a response to the Citybus, that was selling well...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes but the Lion was introduced as a response to the Citybus, that was selling well...

Hmmm...but not selling as well as the Ford Transit, Freight Rover Sherpa and Mercedes L608D.

It was clear where the market was going, and that volume sales of conventional vehicles were going to be much reduced and so it proved.

 

[Stan Drews]

To add to the Voith gearbox comments, 25 of Strathclyde PTEs Leyland Olympians (LO22-46) were new with TL11 engines and Voith transmission …a very enjoyable combination!
Some of the earlier examples had their original Hydracyclics replaced by Voith units.

 

[GusB]

So buses in 1980 were less reliable than their simpler predecessors, because there was more to go wrong? Are modern buses any more reliable.

There's far more technology in modern buses and of course there's more to go wrong; this applies as much now as it ever did. The people who maintained the old front-engined vehicles soon learned to adapt to rear-engined vehicles and they will go on to adapt their skills appropriately. Manufacturers provide traing courses and mechanics aren't stupid.

On the subject of Voith boxed Olympians, Greater Manchester Transport wanted to buy the Gardner/Voith combination for their Olympians (following the successful trial batch) but Leyland management offered GMT an irresistible discount on chassis' if they bought them with Hydracyclics instead!

In 1984, Leyland managed to persuade GMT to swap its last 60 Atlantean chassis for Olympian ones as they were desperate to end production of the AN68 as it didn't meet European noise legislation and even had to be granted a 12 month extension on compliance as they had so many orders left to fulfil... Ironically, they then received a huge glut of export orders, so Atlantean chassis' were churned out well into 1986!

It'd be useful if you could provide some evidence to back these claims up.

We've already had some inaccurate claims in this thread (ie, the fact that the Voith/Gardner combination didn't happen when it actually did!).

 

[Leyland Bus]

There's far more technology in modern buses and of course there's more to go wrong; this applies as much now as it ever did. The people who maintained the old front-engined vehicles soon learned to adapt to rear-engined vehicles and they will go on to adapt their skills appropriately. Manufacturers provide traing courses and mechanics aren't stupid.



It'd be useful if you could provide some evidence to back these claims up.

We've already had some inaccurate claims in this thread (ie, the fact that the Voith/Gardner combination didn't happen when it actually did!).

My apologies that I didn't tape record the conversion I had with Duncan Roberts when he worked at the Wallshaw Street offices at Oldham Depot...

The Atlantean quote is written in the book "Greater Manchester Buses" by Stewart J Brown (Manchesters last Atlantean would have been numbered 8825 rather than 8765)

 

[Bornin1980s]

There's far more technology in modern buses and of course there's more to go wrong; this applies as much now as it ever did. The people who maintained the old front-engined vehicles soon learned to adapt to rear-engined vehicles and they will go on to adapt their skills appropriately. Manufacturers provide traing courses and mechanics aren't stupid.



It'd be useful if you could provide some evidence to back these claims up.

We've already had some inaccurate claims in this thread (ie, the fact that the Voith/Gardner combination didn't happen when it actually did!).

The program implied that breakdowns were becoming more frequent. Have they become more frequent since?

 

[citybus2500]

My apologies that I didn't tape record the conversion I had with Duncan Roberts when he worked at the Wallshaw Street offices at Oldham Depot...

The Atlantean quote is written in the book "Greater Manchester Buses" by Stewart J Brown (Manchesters last Atlantean would have been numbered 8825 rather than 8765)

I can't remember the numbers, but I seem to recall the Alan Witton book at the time had fleet numbers listed for more Atlanteans than were ever delivered.

There's far more technology in modern buses and of course there's more to go wrong; this applies as much now as it ever did. The people who maintained the old front-engined vehicles soon learned to adapt to rear-engined vehicles and they will go on to adapt their skills appropriately. Manufacturers provide traing courses and mechanics aren't stupid.

There is more to go wrong but the biggest issues tend to be around older buses that have had Euro 6 mods, they can be a nightmare. However, they shouldn't break down if they are maintained correctly. A problem today is that the overall standard of maintainence in the UK hasn't kept up with what needs doing.

On the plus side, EVs have so little on them that can go wrong . . . . !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's far more technology in modern buses and of course there's more to go wrong; this applies as much now as it ever did. The people who maintained the old front-engined vehicles soon learned to adapt to rear-engined vehicles and they will go on to adapt their skills appropriately. Manufacturers provide traing courses and mechanics aren't stupid.

The program implied that breakdowns were becoming more frequent. Have they become more frequent since?

Even in the 1970s, there was more technology in modern vehicles compared to their predecessors. There was, of course, all the luxuries of power steering, automatic gearboxes and even stuff like doors...

Then factor in that this was an age of technological advancement with the introduction of vehicles suitable for One Man Operation, as it was called at the time. Some of those early designs illustrated some of the key learnings that weren't a consideration previously but it did mean that you had some notoriously unreliable vehicles at the time (e.g. Daimler Roadliners, Guy Wulfrunians, AEC Swifts, Leyland Panthers). You also had a fundamental shift in vehicle design and how maintenance processes in garages worked. Arguably, that was something that London Transport didn't get their head around, hence why the Daimler Fleetline was apparently a pup and yet other operators were able to make the same vehicles perfectly serviceable.

Aside from all the gricer/veg stuff like "thrash" and engine noise, and being a passenger, buses in the 2020s are lightyears better than those of the 1970s.

 

[overthewater]

The SBG actually had a fair amount of new Olympians:

Northern	88
Eastern	55
Fife	10
Strathtay	9
Central	10
Highland	24
Lowland	2
Midland	1

I make that 199 (figures from buslistsontheweb.co.uk - any errors will be mistakes in my counting) - not as many as the National Bus Company, but not an insignificant number.

Where did most of the Scottish ones end up? By 1988 the Fife ones went to Strathtay and Central. Midland one ended up with Northern. Was Lothian the largest operator in Scotland that brought the Olympians?

 

[GusB]

Where did most of the Scottish ones end up? By 1988 the Fife ones went to Strathtay and Central. Midland one ended up with Northern. Was Lothian the largest operator in Scotland that bought the Olympians?

There was quite a bit of swapping both before and after privatisation.

Northern lost some to Strathtay in the 1985 reorganisation (4 Alexander, 6 ECW) and 2 ECW bodied examples to Clydeside/Western in 1989, including the ex-Midland one. The remaining ECW examples were transferred to Perth after privatisation. 5 of the dual-doored examples went to Cumberland in 1991 and a further 7 went to United Counties; these would have been surplus to requirements after Northern withdrew most of its Citybus network.

Highland lost a load when they were having a bit of bother with a certain competitor in Inverness - the Stagecoach handboook from 1992 shows 13 ex-Highland examples with Ribble.

Strathtay gained 6 from Fife and sold 4 newer ones to Kelvin Central in 1989, with KCB taking the other 4 Fife examples the same year (Scottish Bus Handbook 1989).

Eastern lost 8 to KCB.

Those are the ones that I know about anyway.

As for Lothian, I count 294 Leyland Olympians (buslistsontheweb.co.uk), so that easily makes it the largest Olympian purchaser in Scotland. Add a further 134 for the Volvo Olympians.