UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[43066]

Elon Musk is a filthy reactionary spewing toxic invective into politics. There are reasons other than economy to change.

Or you could go for a Tesla with a “I bought this before we knew Elon Musk was crazy” bumper sticker. Apparently they’re selling very well!

 

[bspahh]

Or you could go for a Tesla with a “I bought this before we knew Elon Musk was crazy” bumper sticker. Apparently they’re selling very well!

For a choice like a car, which is likely to happen once a decade, I'd rather pick another manufacturer. I still have an X account, but that is to read stuff that isn't posted elsewhere. <shrug>

 

[trebor79]

Elon Musk is a filthy reactionary spewing toxic invective into politics. There are reasons other than economy to change.

Well I wouldn't buy another Tesla, not because of Elon, but because there are annoying things I don't like about it. But I'll never go back to petrol and diesel.
Whataboutery aside, every time you turn the get you are pumping poison into the atmosphere. Not caring about that isn't a good look.

For a choice like a car, which is likely to happen once a decade, I'd rather pick another manufacturer. I still have an X account, but that is to read stuff that isn't posted elsewhere. <shrug>

Then he's made more money from your (and my) X account than he has from my choice of car, given I bought it from an independent dealer.
And you have a good enough reasons for you to use X regardless of your views of Musk (who ones it outright). I think my reasons for promoting EV use, even of a Tesla (where he's a shareholder) are valid.
I care less about his politics than I do about being forced to breathe filthy polluted air because people think they are being clever driving clapped out old ICE vehicles.

 

[Bald Rick]

15000 miles last year. At 47mpg and £1.439 per litre the diesel works out at £2085 or 14p/mile. Add on £250 for a service and MOT, £220 for a couple of tyres, £20 for wiper blades and £500 to replace water damaged electrics in a door. Then there is depreciation. I paid £8500 for my car in 2014 and it has now down 228k miles. It seems its worth £700 scrap. I don't think it has lost any money in the last year. That comes to £2825.

A 72 plate KIA Niro 4 is £22944 at the moment. The same model and age from the same dealer was £28944 in February 2024. £6000 in depreciation is double what I have spent on my car, even if charging, servicing and tyres were free.

With that assessment, you’re not comparing like with like. Had you picked a 72 plate petrol vehicle of that sort of value, you would have had similar depreciation, perhaps more. Or had you picked, say, a 6 year old Tesla 3 or E-Niro, you‘d have had much lower depreciation.

Besides, picking examples to suit your own circumstances is not representative of the market as a whole. There are a lot of people out there who change their cars every 3-5 years, and lots of them buy new or nearly new; and most buy on lease / PCP / HP. In these circumstances the whole life costs of EVs are very attractive for many, if not all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Elon Musk is a filthy reactionary spewing toxic invective into politics. There are reasons other than economy to change.

There are EVs other than Teslas. I too would not buy a Tesla for reasons of its owner.

 

[bspahh]

Whataboutery aside, every time you turn the get you are pumping poison into the atmosphere. Not caring about that isn't a good look.

There are environmental costs with scrapping a functional car. Nearly all of my driving is in the fens where the particulates and oxides get diffused. If I was commuting into London, I would choose differently.

With that assessment, you’re not comparing like with like. Had you picked a 72 plate petrol vehicle of that sort of value, you would have had similar depreciation, perhaps more. Or had you picked, say, a 6 year old Tesla 3 or E-Niro, you‘d have had much lower depreciation.

I am comparing what I would have spent if I had changed car a year ago, or kept the one I already had.

When I get my next car, I want a car that isn't a Tesla, with a real world range of 250 miles and an opening sunroof. A first generation Niro matches that, but the fast charging rate is a bit slow, so that means a second generation one is the current favourite.

Besides, picking examples to suit your own circumstances is not representative of the market as a whole. There are a lot of people out there who change their cars every 3-5 years, and lots of them buy new or nearly new; and most buy on lease / PCP / HP. In these circumstances the whole life costs of EVs are very attractive for many, if not all.

That is great for them. I have a car that works for me. I plan to keep it until it doesn't.

 

[wildcard]

Like a whole host of people - I do not have a driveway so unless I move house I can't see an electric vehicle being a sensible proposition. There are a number of public charging points near my flat - at the local station and a public car park. How safe is your vehicle when its left charging ? Can a passing herbert disconnect it or otherwise cause mischief . I guess public chargers are always rapid charge at premium rates. Is there an option for trickle charging at near domestic rates and would anyone leave their car overnight at a public charger ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like a whole host of people - I do not have a driveway so unless I move house I can't see an electric vehicle being a sensible proposition. There are a number of public charging points near my flat - at the local station and a public car park. How safe is your vehicle when its left charging ? Can a passing herbert disconnect it or otherwise cause mischief . I guess public chargers are always rapid charge at premium rates. Is there an option for trickle charging at near domestic rates and would anyone leave their car overnight at a public charger ?

The cable is locked in when charging. Would anyone leave their car anywhere overnight? You have to leave it somewhere. A road outside your house is no safer or less safe than a public car park, indeed the latter might be safer with CCTV etc.

 

[bspahh]

I guess public chargers are always rapid charge at premium rates.

Its worth looking at your local area on ZapMap. Hover over a point and click "Info" in the popup to see the cost.

Near me there are some 22kW chargers which charge a 50p connection fee and 40p/kWh, 7kW chargers for 53p/kWh in a central car park, 49p/kWh on the edge of town and 35p/kWh on an industrial estate a couple of miles away. There are also faster chargers for 85 and 89 p/kWh.

 

[Ediswan]

Maybe it takes 10 seconds. Some people might spend a couple of minutes plugging in. So what? It's such a tiny amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's really not worthwhile getting worked up about.

Agreed. As a payback for the time spent connecting, you get a car which can be demisted/defrosted before you leave the house. That looks like at least a fair trade to me.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Like a whole host of people - I do not have a driveway so unless I move house I can't see an electric vehicle being a sensible proposition. There are a number of public charging points near my flat - at the local station and a public car park. How safe is your vehicle when its left charging ? Can a passing herbert disconnect it or otherwise cause mischief . I guess public chargers are always rapid charge at premium rates. Is there an option for trickle charging at near domestic rates and would anyone leave their car overnight at a public charger ?

Yes, as already noted, the cable (which is "live" at the time, hence unlikely to be cut through) is locked into the car (and socket, if it isn't tethered). Requires the car to be unlocked (typically) to release. As to "mischeif" in general - as per any other parked car, of course.

In general, the type of charger where you are intended to leave the car for a long time (eg overnight) is a 7kW AC unit and the charging costs for these are usually lower than DC rapids - but rarely at domestic rates. There are still a few free ones about, though. Some will be 22kW 3-phase units, but many cars don't handle 3-phase so you use just one phase at 7kW anyway. It's accepted and intended at such units that you leave them a long time and there is no more risk in doing so than simply parking.

As to Elon Musk and Tesla:
My view is this. Like many, I don't like much of what he has been up to lately. But that in itself would not preclude me from buying a Tesla, IF it were the most suitable vehicle. As it is, neither of Tesla's current models are, for various reasons not directly Musk related, cars I'd choose. But what we do have to give him "credit" for (assuming we consider EVs to be a good way forward) is proving to the world that it could be done. I firmly believe that were it not for Tesla's introduction ~10 years ago, the mainstream manufacturers would be churning out ICEs while stating that it "can't be done" and governments having to accept that. As it is, having had it demonsrated to them, those manufacturers are nevertheless still trying to bleat at governments who have seen how practical they are in fact, and are legislating accordingly.

 

[yorkie]

For Elon musk discussion, please use the following thread:

Elon Musk - the world's "greatest" spiv?

Elon Musk recently bought a load of shares in Twitter, and after turning down an offer to join the board, has made an offer to buy the platform: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61104231 Tesla boss Elon Musk has offered to buy Twitter, saying he is the right person to "unlock" the social...

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Thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==

For Elon musk discussion, please use the following thread:

Elon Musk - the world's "greatest" spiv?

Elon Musk recently bought a load of shares in Twitter, and after turning down an offer to join the board, has made an offer to buy the platform: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61104231 Tesla boss Elon Musk has offered to buy Twitter, saying he is the right person to "unlock" the social...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks

 

[trebor79]

There are environmental costs with scrapping a functional car.

It's going to be scrapped sooner or later. Scrapping it now avoids further pollution from using it.

Nearly all of my driving is in the fens where the particulates and oxides get diffused. If I was commuting into London, I would choose differently.

Still affects the people who are driving behind you, and there is no safe exposure limit for a lot of the stuff pumped out by old diesel engines.

When I get my next car, I want a car that isn't a Tesla, with a real world range of 250 miles and an opening sunroof. A first generation Niro matches that, but the fast charging rate is a bit slow, so that means a second generation one is the current favourite.

The current Niro charges no faster than the first generation model.
You want something on the E-GMP platform for a faster charging Kia or Hyundai. Though it seems you don't do that many miles so I'm not sure why you'd want such a fast charge rate.
There are loads of cars from VW, Kia/Hyundai, MG, BYD, Stellantis that fit your criteria.

would anyone leave their car overnight at a public charger ?

Yes I do it all the time. Lots of car parks now have AC charge points for exactly this use case.

 

[bspahh]

There are loads of cars from VW, Kia/Hyundai, MG, BYD, Stellantis that fit your criteria.

At the moment, Kia and Hyundai are the favourites. I live a mile from a KIA dealer which also helps. Of the E-GMP models, the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are a quite big. I'd rather a hatchback than an SUV. The EV3 is new so one with a sunroof is still £40k. One of the original Ioniqs might be OK as a run around, but I want a longer range.

For the others my problems are:

• VW/Skoda/Seat: laggy touch screens, not enough physical buttons and sunroofs that don't open.
• MG: Only the ZS has an opening sunroof. Poor reliability
• BYD. The Atto has an opening sunroof but I'd rather have a hatchback to an SUV.
• Stellantis: 50kWh batteries and poor repairability

Some other possibilities:

A BMW i4 has come up in searches. I'm a bit wary of the cost of spares & repairs.

The only electric vehicles from Toyota, Honda, Volvo and Ford with a 250 mile range are SUVs. When I come to buy a car, I'll take a look, but I don't think they would be for me.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Volvo EX30 is sold as a compact SUV, but it really isn’t. Two of my friends have them, and they are esentially a hatchback. Nice cars. Good deals available.

Renault Megane ETech is also a good option. 280 range and plenty of 2 year old versions around in the region of £17k.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having had an MG as a hire car I'd say they feel really cheap, but equally they are really cheap so if you don't mind that it might not be a bad choice.

Nothing at all felt premium about it. It was a ZS (ICE) and basically felt like a Kuga but done really badly in just about every single respect.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having had an MG as a hire car I'd say they feel really cheap, but equally they are really cheap so if you don't mind that it might not be a bad choice.

Nothing at all felt premium about it. It was a ZS (ICE) and basically felt like a Kuga but done really badly in just about every single respect.

MG4s are pretty good.

 

[trebor79]

Having had an MG as a hire car I'd say they feel really cheap, but equally they are really cheap so if you don't mind that it might not be a bad choice.

Nothing at all felt premium about it. It was a ZS (ICE) and basically felt like a Kuga but done really badly in just about every single respect.

Yeah the ZS ICE version is pretty awful. Had one as a hire car once. Engine was totally gutless and made a first gear transmission whine noise like and old mini.
It was comfortable enough to sit in though and the EV version is much nicer to drive apparently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MG4s are pretty good.

I have sat in one of those and it did seem to feel a bit better (and more spacious for the bigger driver than the MG5), so maybe they indeed are improving. The forthcoming MG4 based estate may be interesting. The MG5 does however, like the ZS, feel cheap, and have the looks of a mid-2000s Vauxhall Astra.

Having said that, they're cheap and functional (hence popular as minicabs) - I guess we should just think of them as being in the same market as Dacia.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==

Yeah the ZS ICE version is pretty awful. Had one as a hire car once. Engine was totally gutless and made a first gear transmission whine noise like and old mini.
It was comfortable enough to sit in though and the EV version is much nicer to drive apparently.

The overall cabin feel I found cheap too - but I think this sort of thing (which looks dated in the UK - stuff like obviously plastic fake chrome) is what the Chinese market wants, as most of the Chinese cars seem to have this sort of interior. The ride was also fairly poor. "Poor man's Kuga" was definitely how I'd describe it.

 

[trebor79]

The overall cabin feel I found cheap too - but I think this sort of thing (which looks dated in the UK - stuff like obviously plastic fake chrome) is what the Chinese market wants, as most of the Chinese cars seem to have this sort of interior. The ride was also fairly poor. "Poor man's Kuga" was definitely how I'd describe it.

Agree. And the sat nav crashed within 10 seconds (after taking several minutes to boot up). Fortunately Android Auto worked.
I believe the facelifted models have different (better) screen and software and a refreshed interior.
I didn't find anything to dislike about the interior. It wasn't luxurious but it's not marketed as a luxury car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree. And the sat nav crashed within 10 seconds (after taking several minutes to boot up). Fortunately Android Auto worked.

Yep, had that as well.

I believe the facelifted models have different (better) screen and software and a refreshed interior.
I didn't find anything to dislike about the interior. It wasn't luxurious but it's not marketed as a luxury car.

I thought it was annoyingly "fake posh" to be honest. In a budget car I'd rather it was more Dacia-style i.e. robust and simple. Though to be fair some aspects of Dacias do feel unnecessarily cheap, such as the gearknob which feels like it's made of Lego.

 

[jon0844]

As more and more people drive less, and a lot of jobs involving motorway munching (I remember when I did well over 20,000 miles per year - now it's about 4,000) are gone in an age of emails and Zoom calls, I wonder if a lot of people are so bothered about the quality of the interior in terms of materials.

You want storage space, you want comfortable seats. You want a good driver/machine interface and maybe a nice big display for navigation (but also with physical buttons) but scratchy plastics that you only touch when you clean the car? Is that a problem for many?

I'm older now and when I was young it was vitally important to be seen in the right car, and plenty of people are buying certain cars for status, but these people will likely pay more and not moan (to not pay more suggests being poor) and I am talking about the average person.

As time goes on, cars like the Dacia Spring have got to a level where they're not laughable low-spec cars for the poor or people who know nothing about cars, but very functional cars with all of the key creature comforts we expect from a modern car.

With people tightening their belts, I really do think we're going to see more cars competing in the space alongside Dacia, MG and others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As more and more people drive less, and a lot of jobs involving motorway munching (I remember when I did well over 20,000 miles per year - now it's about 4,000) are gone in an age of emails and Zoom calls, I wonder if a lot of people are so bothered about the quality of the interior in terms of materials.

I think they very much are. Indeed, if you compare 1980s cars to today, the interiors are so much better, even in the cheapest cars. Even that cheapo Dacia has a better interior than a 1980 Ford Escort L. (What happened to L trim, I wonder?)

I don't think this is for a laugh. I think the manufacturers know their market.

See also alloy wheels (which have no practical benefit on a consumer car - yes, they're fractionally lighter than steelies, but the fuel consumption benefit is negligible at normal speeds) having become pretty much the default.

 

[jon0844]

I think they very much are. Indeed, if you compare 1980s cars to today, the interiors are so much better, even in the cheapest cars. Even that cheapo Dacia has a better interior than a 1980 Ford Escort L. (What happened to L trim, I wonder?)

I don't think this is for a laugh. I think the manufacturers know their market.

See also alloy wheels (which have no practical benefit on a consumer car - yes, they're fractionally lighter than steelies, but the fuel consumption benefit is negligible at normal speeds) having become pretty much the default.

The new Fiat Panda (Stellantis now demonstrating like Renault how to bring back a classic car for a modern era - something Ford really needs to take note of) has the option of steel wheels. No fake covers either, actual steel wheels but painted if you so wish!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new Fiat Panda (Stellantis now demonstrating like Renault how to bring back a classic car for a modern era - something Ford really needs to take note of) has the option of steel wheels. No fake covers either, actual steel wheels but painted if you so wish!

The new Frontera does as well, though I suspect on that it's a stylistic point if you want it to look like a rugged 4x4 (ha!) rather than a fancy Chelsea tractor.

 

[jon0844]

The new Frontera does as well, though I suspect on that it's a stylistic point if you want it to look like a rugged 4x4 (ha!) rather than a fancy Chelsea tractor.

The best bit about these car makers injecting a bit of fun/retro in their products is that these cars become cool in their own right - so it's even harder for someone to say 'cheap car, you're too poor to afford a Range Rover/BMW/Merc/Audi' because, if anything, those cars are the ones that now look uncool.

I really do wish people would move away from SUVs and crossovers. I think car makers need to go back to making estate cars for those who need a lot of storage, or coming up with clever solutions on smaller cars (like the Hyundai Inster) where you can get loads of storage or loads of comfort with fold flat seats and seats that recline and move back into the boot space.

 

[cactustwirly]

Having had an MG as a hire car I'd say they feel really cheap, but equally they are really cheap so if you don't mind that it might not be a bad choice.

Nothing at all felt premium about it. It was a ZS (ICE) and basically felt like a Kuga but done really badly in just about every single respect.

I had one as a hire car and was pleasantly surprised, felt very Japanese tbh.

Felt solidly put together, I didn't like it because it was an SUV, the engine is gutless as hell and it's made in China

 

[Peter Sarf]

The best bit about these car makers injecting a bit of fun/retro in their products is that these cars become cool in their own right - so it's even harder for someone to say 'cheap car, you're too poor to afford a Range Rover/BMW/Merc/Audi' because, if anything, those cars are the ones that now look uncool.

I really do wish people would move away from SUVs and crossovers. I think car makers need to go back to making estate cars for those who need a lot of storage, or coming up with clever solutions on smaller cars (like the Hyundai Inster) where you can get loads of storage or loads of comfort with fold flat seats and seats that recline and move back into the boot space.

Estate cars. That's me and now I am having to look at SUVs like the Honda CR-V (circa 2012). I never thoght I would be going for sub Chelsea tractors !. The advantage on top of an estate capability will be that I can sit less curled up which helps my back (not helped by being so tall).

As I buy 10-15 year old cars it is going to take a while for an EV Estate to attract my attention unfortunately.

I am also someone who sees a car as a useful tool not a fashion accessory. But we have to accept most people buy a car based on what the adverts tell them they look god in/owning - at least that makes them cast older but still usable cars aside for the likes of me !.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You are counting the time it takes to fill at a petrol station, and charging at a public charger, but not the time it takes to plug in and unplug at a home charger. That doesn't take long, but is something that you would do many times each year.

A bit late responding to this post, but even as a vocal EV sceptic on this thread I think that criticism is a bit of a reach!

Well I wouldn't buy another Tesla, not because of Elon, but because there are annoying things I don't like about it. But I'll never go back to petrol and diesel.
Whataboutery aside, every time you turn the get you are pumping poison into the atmosphere. Not caring about that isn't a good look.

Then he's made more money from your (and my) X account than he has from my choice of car, given I bought it from an independent dealer.
And you have a good enough reasons for you to use X regardless of your views of Musk (who ones it outright). I think my reasons for promoting EV use, even of a Tesla (where he's a shareholder) are valid.
I care less about his politics than I do about being forced to breathe filthy polluted air because people think they are being clever driving clapped out old ICE vehicles.

Without wishing to anger the mods (I'm currently blocked from General Discussion in any case) the only difference between Musk and the bosses of other auto makers is that everyone is well aware of his political baggage... and let's not get into the ethics of China's government (which is heavily involved with most/all of their auto companies) as that would rightly prompt a "red text" response!

Tailpipe emissions are only one part of the equation of course. There's also resource extraction to consider, and what happens to the vehicle once it becomes life-expired. On the previous page someone mentioned scrappers offering £700 for scrap cars, but that won't last with new rules for scrappers coming in- a number of long-established car dismantlers are going to be shutting up shop due to this (see Hubnut's videos on Tan y Groes for example). Whilst this may well be a good thing overall from an environmental standpoint, it does mean that the scrappers that survive probably won't be able to offer that kind of money for a dead EV.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Filthy old diesel spewing toxic gases and particles into the air we breath. There are reasons other than economy to change.

EVs are not entirely environmentally friendly either. The environmental and social costs of producing a lithium battery are substantial

The Harmful Effects of our Lithium Batteries - Greenly

Are lithium batteries really eco-friendly? Uncover the hidden environmental costs behind this popular alternative to fossil fuels.

greenly.earth