UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[pokemonsuper9]

I was thinking if the car was also the home charger !.

That's a fun idea, getting free charging at work (for example) and then plugging in at home and making good use of the free power!

Someone's bound to try it (or already be).

 

[Class 317]

Part of the issue is clearly that EVs are relatively new technology. I've heard both EV owners and manufacturers talk about battery life, and how charging to 100% every time can reduce the lifespan of the battery- just as overuse of fast charging has been said to do so. Whether or not these things are true, and how true they are, would be a source of anxiety for me as an EV owner. Lithium Ion batteries in other devices can have their lives shortened by overcharging or repeated fast charging, which is why my mobile phone has software to manage how quickly it charges. Why would a much larger battery in a car be any different?

By comparison I know exactly where I stand with petrol: not only do I know that I can refuel in minutes and not worry that it might damage the engine, but it's mature technology that I'm familiar with. I can also do basic maintenance myself.

Also if you're trying to argue about how much money I could save, Tesla is not the example to use. We've all heard of the "VW Tax" on ICE vehicles (a used Golf will be a fair bit costlier than a comparable Skoda or Seat based on the same platform), the "Tesla Tax" on EVs is the Volkswagen Tax on steroids... and that's before you get on to panel gaps you could park a motorcycle in!

You don't need a Tesla to use their chargers anymore.

I have no home charging and charge at a number of places including the weekly shop, car park next to the pub and when going to town. Rated vary from 32p KWH to 49p a KWH.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Hmmm:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

(This is the type of car I have, but mine is the more equipped SE version).

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

One ad has expired already but the other two are "70" plate Hyundais £7k - £9k not my price bracket.

My mistake, they insert paid adverts in the listings, so I saw half a dozen cheap models around £2k which were 5/6 Leaf/Zoe, then something more expensive and didn't scroll down further.

£2k is more my price bracket.

That's a fun idea, getting free charging at work (for example) and then plugging in at home and making good use of the free power!

Someone's bound to try it (or already be).

Oh, I am in !.

 

[jon0844]

Whilst I doubt that there is a big risk of battery failure (either total, to such an extent that it renders the vehicle all but useless), I'd predict that IF that situation DOES arise, then there will come, alongside it, an industry in battery reconditioning.

There are already are and there will be many more. They can salvage batteries from scrapped vehicles and refurbish others - right down to changing individual modules or even cells (depending on how much you wish to pay for the work required to balance everything and recalibrate etc).

For most old cars, I expect people will just opt to 'drop in' a refurb that a third party is selling, and the company takes their battery to refurb and sell on.

What most people won't be doing on a 10 or 15 year old car is buying a brand new battery, and yet all we hear is how expensive replacement batteries are. Who cares? Who's buying one? How much is a new engine for a 15 year old car, the type that someone would want to replace (ie not a 3 cylinder 1 litre petrol engine)?

 

[Bald Rick]

£2k is more my price bracket.

Given that a bloke near me will pay £700 minimum for any car for scrap, I wouldn‘t hold out much hope for cars in that price bracket now. There’s quite a few around (about 1 in 30 cars for sale) but in the modern era most will have something wrong with them, or something at risk of going wrong with them that will be terminal / expensive.

 

[The Ham]

Given that a bloke near me will pay £700 minimum for any car for scrap, I wouldn‘t hold out much hope for cars in that price bracket now. There’s quite a few around (about 1 in 30 cars for sale) but in the modern era most will have something wrong with them, or something at risk of going wrong with them that will be terminal / expensive.

Indeed, just part exchanged our old car (2011) which has 160,000 miles (petrol) on the clock and 5 days of MOT remaining for £1,000.

Whilst it served us well, and was driving fine, there's a risk that it's not going to last much longer.

If you've not brought a car since 2021 they have jumped in value and so what was a viable banger before now might just cost you a bit more than you're used to.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you've not brought a car since 2021 they have jumped in value and so what was a viable banger before now might just cost you a bit more than you're used to.

Indeed so. I’m looking to sell the reliably boring family car I bought in 2020 - relatively high milesge then, but average mileage now, and was pleased to see it has depreciated by only 15% in that time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Given that a bloke near me will pay £700 minimum for any car for scrap, I wouldn‘t hold out much hope for cars in that price bracket now. There’s quite a few around (about 1 in 30 cars for sale) but in the modern era most will have something wrong with them, or something at risk of going wrong with them that will be terminal / expensive.

+

Indeed, just part exchanged our old car (2011) which has 160,000 miles (petrol) on the clock and 5 days of MOT remaining for £1,000.

Whilst it served us well, and was driving fine, there's a risk that it's not going to last much longer.

If you've not brought a car since 2021 they have jumped in value and so what was a viable banger before now might just cost you a bit more than you're used to.

It does seem to be the case that older cars are holding their value well. With hindsight I should have kept hold of my Carlton, the amount i used it meant I could have ignored the ULEZ cost.

I think there is a shortage of second hand cars filtering through because of the short supply of newer cars around Covid time when computer chips were in short supply. Furthermore there will have been more demand for second hand cars as people in London got rid of older cars prematurely to comply with ULEZ.

I wonder how much the switch to EVs is having an effect on the supply of second hand vehicles or is affected by the supply of cars.

 

[Bald Rick]

+

It does seem to be the case that older cars are holding their value well. With hindsight I should have kept hold of my Carlton, the amount i used it meant I could have ignored the ULEZ cost.

I think there is a shortage of second hand cars filtering through because of the short supply of newer cars around Covid time when computer chips were in short supply. Furthermore there will have been more demand for second hand cars as people in London got rid of older cars prematurely to comply with ULEZ.

I wonder how much the switch to EVs is having an effect on the supply of second hand vehicles or is affected by the supply of cars.

There’s over 400,000 cars for sale on Autotrader (excl brand new), a quarter of which are within 40 miles of Croydon. I wouldn‘t call that short supply!

 

[RuddA]

I am likely to walk for ten minutes or more anyway - do that for the shopping trip. My Morrisons has car charging there BUT you cannot leave the car there for more then two (2 iirc) hours. Fingers crossed that will be something that HAS to change.

I believe that Tesco has the same type of restrictions. Lidl allow people to charge without parking restrictions, and having brought their chargers in-house they can be used and paid for via their app.

When we go out as a family I have to stop for toilet breaks far more frequently than to charge.

Norwich to Doncaster and return in a day, left the car on charge at the shopping centre and arrived home with 40% charge remaining.

Day out in Birmingham, 25 mins required on a fast charger was all that was required, which was done whilst eating.

A little planning required, but not much.

No home charger, but lucky to have one at work.

 

[The Ham]

I believe that Tesco has the same type of restrictions. Lidl allow people to charge without parking restrictions, and having brought their chargers in-house they can be used and paid for via their app.

When we go out as a family I have to stop for toilet breaks far more frequently than to charge.

Norwich to Doncaster and return in a day, left the car on charge at the shopping centre and arrived home with 40% charge remaining.

Day out in Birmingham, 25 mins required on a fast charger was all that was required, which was done whilst eating.

A little planning required, but not much.

No home charger, but lucky to have one at work.

Before anyone says they don't want to do planning, they already do in their ICE, unless they drive until their car tells then their low of fuel and fill up at like nearest petrol station (even if that's at motorway services and paying 20p a little more then the local petrol stations)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before anyone says they don't want to do planning, they already do in their ICE, unless they drive until their car tells then their low of fuel and fill up at like nearest petrol station (even if that's at motorway services and paying 20p a little more then the local petrol stations)

It doesn't take much planning to visit a petrol station between home and the motorway when doing a long journey, though, assuming there is one.

I do wonder if there's a correlation between EVangelists (I like that term ) and people who get the cheapest Advances on trains? I'd certainly say the charging network and the nature of most of my journeys is one of the reasons an EV might not be for me quite yet, though it's getting there.

 

[paul1609]

Not really, because car charging mostly happens overnight whereas the heating you mostly want on during the day. There's also the option of fitting a home battery which allows demand to be spread out and the incorporation of stuff like solar panels.

What it probably will do is kill Economy 7 because overnight won't be a low demand time any more, it'll be much more even. But most people aren't on Economy 7 anyway, as storage heaters are absolute junk.

Also your heat pump won't be drawing 30A, because that would cost an absolute fortune. That's three large oil radiators. OK, people with massive houses maybe, but a typical 3 bed terrace? Won't be anywhere near that.

It's the starting current for the heat pump compressor that's the issue. If you want the impressive SCOPS that are quoted by the retailers you need really to have your heat pump running 24/7 possibly with some setback. To run a heat pump like a gas boiler during the day only you need to specify a heat pump that's really too large (and will have an even higher starting current), when the heating reaches temperature the heat pump will be unable to modulate properly and will cycle on and off which is less efficient and expensive in energy costs.

 

[RuddA]

Plan the route and most convenient place to park. Few minutes to see where the cheapest/most convenient charges are. Could just stop at one of the numerous chargers shown on the sat-nav.

1100 miles in the past month for £37, which was a fast-charge at Cobham services.

On the negative side of EVs, a colleague has an MG which only has a range of approx 170 miles. Travelling from Norwich to Heathrow, he stops near Stansted for a coffee and charge.

 

[The Ham]

It doesn't take much planning to visit a petrol station between home and the motorway when doing a long journey, though, assuming there is one.

For those that have a charger at home it takes even less planning to plug in to cover >90% of most people's journeys (bearing in mind that for most people they rarely do 50+ miles more than a few times a year).

 

[Harpers Tate]

For those that have a charger at home it takes even less planning to plug in to cover >90% of most people's journeys (bearing in mind that for most people they rarely do 50+ miles more than a few times a year).

...and for those people (accepting and acknowledging that there are many who cannot reasonably home charge as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) it's actually LESS of an overhead than liquid fuelling an ICE; visiting a fuelling place is something you never/hardly ever have to do at all. Thus saving (say) 2 x 10-minute such calls per month (depending) = 4 hours pa. 4 hours would "buy", 8 x 30 minute recharging stops on longer journeys pa. If we take account of the activity you might do in parallel (like eating, drinking, physical needs etc.) and if we suppose that occupies half of the charging time on average, make that 16 such stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those that have a charger at home it takes even less planning to plug in to cover >90% of most people's journeys (bearing in mind that for most people they rarely do 50+ miles more than a few times a year).

Yes, true. EVs are certainly, at present, much more suitable for those who can charge at home. Those who cannot can still make one work, but due to the charging network maybe needing improvement it does require more planning.

 

[bspahh]

...and for those people (accepting and acknowledging that there are many who cannot reasonably home charge as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) it's actually LESS of an overhead than liquid fuelling an ICE; visiting a fuelling place is something you never/hardly ever have to do at all. Thus saving (say) 2 x 10-minute such calls per month (depending) = 4 hours pa. 4 hours would "buy", 8 x 30 minute recharging stops on longer journeys pa.

You are counting the time it takes to fill at a petrol station, and charging at a public charger, but not the time it takes to plug in and unplug at a home charger. That doesn't take long, but is something that you would do many times each year.

 

[Energy]

Lidl allow people to charge without parking restrictions, and having brought their chargers in-house they can be used and paid for via their app.

From what I can tell they still use PodPoint to some extent but the chargers moved over to the Lidl Plus app. The charging hardware is still the same.

Lidl have been pushing their app hard recently, so the change seems more related to that than a desire to improve the charging experience.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There’s over 400,000 cars for sale on Autotrader (excl brand new), a quarter of which are within 40 miles of Croydon. I wouldn‘t call that short supply!

It seems to be the price that is indicating where the supply and demand balance is right now. My stepson has just told me how his VW Polo (blue motion iirc) has gone up in value !.

I believe that Tesco has the same type of restrictions. Lidl allow people to charge without parking restrictions, and having brought their chargers in-house they can be used and paid for via their app.

When we go out as a family I have to stop for toilet breaks far more frequently than to charge.

Norwich to Doncaster and return in a day, left the car on charge at the shopping centre and arrived home with 40% charge remaining.

Day out in Birmingham, 25 mins required on a fast charger was all that was required, which was done whilst eating.

A little planning required, but not much.

No home charger, but lucky to have one at work.

My bold. Just beware some Lidl car parks require you to make a purchase and register your registration number. A few people stung round here by the Lidl at Broad Green in North (West) Croydon. One lady said she buys a snack for under a pound and eats it while walking the rest of the way into Croydon !. I realise that means she could get a decent charge that way for not much parking cost. But it (restrictions) is something to watch for.

You are counting the time it takes to fill at a petrol station, and charging at a public charger, but not the time it takes to plug in and unplug at a home charger. That doesn't take long, but is something that you would do many times each year.

The point being made/alleged is that most people do mainly short journeys so home charging covers that which means the time taken to charge at home is not relevant. For the few longer journey 4 x 30m per year might cover all long distance trips.

I do however wonder how long it takes to connect a car onto a home charger and then disconnect when needing to use the car, it will add up.
(But of course I am amongst those who do not have off street parking anyway).

 

[jon0844]

You are counting the time it takes to fill at a petrol station, and charging at a public charger, but not the time it takes to plug in and unplug at a home charger. That doesn't take long, but is something that you would do many times each year.

Plugging in might take, what, 30 seconds? Probably less. Maybe 20? You won't even think about it.

What if you need to go the toilet when you fill up with petrol? Do you have someone else to fuel while you go, or do you count the time when you go in to pay (assuming you don't pay at pump) on top? What about the chocolate bar you decide to buy?

If you were charging you could do the toilet and shopping stuff while the car was charging itself.

Of course my example is crazy as we don't count every single minor detail like that do we?

Charging an EV is going to be a change for people but people will get used to it in no time. It's like adapting muscle memory if you buy something new that has buttons in a different position.

 

[trebor79]

I do however wonder how long it takes to connect a car onto a home charger and then disconnect when needing to use the car, it will add up.

It's about 5 seconds.

 

[bspahh]

It's about 5 seconds.

Is that inside a garage or outside? How long is the cable?

 

[jon0844]

Is that inside a garage or outside? How long is the cable?

Does that matter? If you parked in a garage then it would be because you want to park in a garage and the time taken wouldn't matter if it was electric or petrol?

I am amazed people wouldn't buy an EV that's cheaper to run, with next to nothing needing servicing, and can cost significantly less per mile to drive (even if you use public chargers) because it might take a few minutes longer to charge it. When we're arguing about the time to plug something in then we've truly begun clutching at straws.

How much time does it take to plug a cable to charge your smartphone or laptop?

 

[bspahh]

Does that matter? If you parked in a garage then it would be because you want to park in a garage and the time taken wouldn't matter if it was electric or petrol?

I am amazed people wouldn't buy an EV that's cheaper to run, with next to nothing needing servicing, and can cost significantly less per mile to drive (even if you use public chargers) because it might take a few minutes longer to charge it. When we're arguing about the time to plug something in then we've truly begun clutching at straws.

How much time does it take to plug a cable to charge your smartphone or laptop?

If the charger is outdoors, I would expect to have to store the charging cable so the plug doesn't get wet. It takes me longer than 5 seconds to stow the hose for a vacuum cleaner.

I don't have an EV because its cheaper for me to keep running my existing car. I'll get an EV when my car dies.

 

[jon0844]

If the charger is outdoors, I would expect to have to store the charging cable so the plug doesn't get wet. It takes me longer than 5 seconds to stow the hose for a vacuum cleaner.

I don't have an EV because its cheaper for me to keep running my existing car. I'll get an EV when my car dies.

Store the cable? All the outdoor chargers I've seen have the cable wrapped around it. They're designed for outdoor use and are at least IP65 rated.

Come home, unhook, plug in. Go out, unplug, hook.

Done.

And I guess if you don't drive much then maybe the maths works out better to keep the current car, but if you drive a lot and are paying 10-20 times for fuel than electricity, and a high annual service cost, I'd have thought the longer you own the fossil fuel car the more you're spending than you should be.

But I can't work out the specific maths for you as I'm sure you have.

 

[GusB]

If the charger is outdoors, I would expect to have to store the charging cable so the plug doesn't get wet. It takes me longer than 5 seconds to stow the hose for a vacuum cleaner.

I don't have an EV because its cheaper for me to keep running my existing car. I'll get an EV when my car dies.

Maybe it takes 10 seconds. Some people might spend a couple of minutes plugging in. So what? It's such a tiny amount of time in the grand scheme of things that it's really not worthwhile getting worked up about.

The words "clutch" and "straws" spring to mind!

 

[bspahh]

And I guess if you don't drive much then maybe the maths works out better to keep the current car, but if you drive a lot and are paying 10-20 times for fuel than electricity, and a high annual service cost, I'd have thought the longer you own the fossil fuel car the more you're spending than you should be.

15000 miles last year. At 47mpg and £1.439 per litre the diesel works out at £2085 or 14p/mile. Add on £250 for a service and MOT, £220 for a couple of tyres, £20 for wiper blades and £500 to replace water damaged electrics in a door. Then there is depreciation. I paid £8500 for my car in 2014 and it has now down 228k miles. It seems its worth £700 scrap. I don't think it has lost any money in the last year. That comes to £2825.

A 72 plate KIA Niro 4 is £22944 at the moment. The same model and age from the same dealer was £28944 in February 2024. £6000 in depreciation is double what I have spent on my car, even if charging, servicing and tyres were free.


The discussion about the time to plug into a charger was following on from

UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

I was thinking if the car was also the home charger !. That's a fun idea, getting free charging at work (for example) and then plugging in at home and making good use of the free power! Someone's bound to try it (or already be).

www.railforums.co.uk

which compared the times to fill at a petrol station, and charge at a public charger but not at home.

I used a filling station 25 times last year. That is normally every 700 miles, but the average drops to 600 miles when I have only part filled at an expensive filling station.

I will time it the next time I fill up, but I very much doubt if it takes me 10 minutes to fill up, including the detour to the petrol station, and paying at the pump.

 

[trebor79]

Is that inside a garage or outside? How long is the cable?

Outside. 7m cable.

If the charger is outdoors, I would expect to have to store the charging cable so the plug doesn't get wet. It takes me longer than 5 seconds to stow the hose for a vacuum cleaner.

There a holster on the wall it clicks into. But it doesn't matter if it gets wet anyway.

I don't have an EV because its cheaper for me to keep running my existing car. I'll get an EV when my car dies.

Filthy old diesel spewing toxic gases and particles into the air we breath. There are reasons other than economy to change.

15000 miles last year. At 47mpg and £1.439 per litre the diesel works out at £2085 or 14p/mile. Add on £250 for a service and MOT, £220 for a couple of tyres, £20 for wiper blades and £500 to replace water damaged electrics in a door. Then there is depreciation.

Horrendous. I bought my Tesla second hand. I've done 65,000 miles in it at an average "fuel" cost of 3p/mile.
No servicing at all.
2 tyres cost £400. Wiper blades £25, air conditioning pollen filter £30. All easy DIY other than the tyres.
You can buy a model 3 for less than £15k now. High mileage but it doesn't matter as there's nothing really to wear out.

Our Kia Niro 2 has a lower fuel cost as it's almost never rapid charged. It's had one dealer service at £170 and a couple of tyres due to punctures.

And we aren't putting toxic fumes and particulates into the air.
Really small diesel engine vehicles ought to have been banned outright many years ago.

I paid £8500 for my car in 2014 and it has now down 228k miles. It seems its worth £700 scrap. I don't think it has lost any money in the last year. That comes to £2825.

A 72 plate KIA Niro 4 is £22944 at the moment. The same model and age from the same dealer was £28944 in February 2024. £6000 in depreciation is double what I have spent on my car, even if charging, servicing and tyres were free.


The discussion about the time to plug into a charger was following on from

UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

I was thinking if the car was also the home charger !. That's a fun idea, getting free charging at work (for example) and then plugging in at home and making good use of the free power! Someone's bound to try it (or already be).

www.railforums.co.uk

which compared the times to fill at a petrol station, and charge at a public charger but not at home.

I used a filling station 25 times last year. That is normally every 700 miles, but the average drops to 600 miles when I have only part filled at an expensive filling station.

I will time it the next time I fill up, but I very much doubt if it takes me 10 minutes to fill up, including the detour to the petrol station, and paying at the pump.

I think you'll be surprised.

 

[bspahh]

Filthy old diesel spewing toxic gases and particles into the air we breath. There are reasons other than economy to change.

Horrendous. I bought my Tesla second hand. I've done 65,000 miles in it at an average "fuel" cost of 3p/mile.
No servicing at all.
2 tyres cost £400. Wiper blades £25, air conditioning pollen filter £30. All easy DIY other than the tyres.
You can buy a model 3 for less than £15k now. High mileage but it doesn't matter as there's nothing really to wear out.

Elon Musk is a filthy reactionary spewing toxic invective into politics. There are reasons other than economy to change.