Nottingham Station: Access to platforms from footbridge

[Skymonster]

I think we all knew it was coming, and this time probably won’t go away again. So typical of the railway - look after itself and its interests, and sod the adverse consequences and inconvenience for paying customers.

 

[tram21]

Well thankfully it will still be open for my next trip on Tuesday, allowing me easy access to my bus connection.

What bus connection? All buses run from the front of the station, which is best accessible through the gateline?

 

[Lemmy99uk]

What bus connection? All buses run from the front of the station, which is best accessible through the gateline?

No they don’t.

I get the 50 from Canal Street. It doesn’t go anywhere near the station front.

 

[LowLevel]

I think we all knew it was coming, and this time probably won’t go away again. So typical of the railway - look after itself and its interests, and sod the adverse consequences and inconvenience for paying customers.

To be fair you can stick at least part of the blame on the numpties who, having spent weeks moaning about the bridge closure, took no time at all to get back into the habit of ignoring all ticket purchasing facilities and paying the guard to the likes of Grantham and Newark again, and there was more than a handful of them. Modern ticket machines provide them with instant data about what is being sold from where.

 

[tram21]

No they don’t.

I get the 50 from Canal Street. It doesn’t go anywhere near the station front.

Ah you've caught me out there, my mistake, I completely forgot about that!!

Enjoy your ride on our lovely Yutongs

 

[Kite159]

I can foresee sale of tickets for Beeston* skyrocketing with passengers buying the cheapest fare to simply bypass the barriers at Nottingham in the hope of not getting checked on board when travelling further afield.

Sadly some passengers think payment is strictly optional, even when the station they are starting from has all ticket buying options available, knowing the risk of running into a RPI is low (and knowing that most guards will sell them a ticket regardless to avoid conflict)

(*Unless there is a cheaper fare available)

 

[Travelmonkey]

Having seen the level caught on the last sting it's clear something needs to be done, I am not popular for telling people like it is that if people paid their way we wouldn't need such tactics. Although given how much is being scammed out of Nottingham other stations like Sheffield must be hemorging money,

 

[ChrisC]

If the revenue loss figures which are being given by EMR are accurate, something seriously does need to be done about it. I would never think of travelling on a train without a valid ticket and I don’t see why I should always pay my fare when others are obviously regularly not doing so. If a bit of extra walking and time taken mean these people can’t get away without paying then I will gladly put up with that inconvenience.

 

[Travelmonkey]

If the revenue loss figures which are being given by EMR are accurate, something seriously does need to be done about it. I would never think of travelling on a train without a valid ticket and I don’t see why I should always pay my fare when others are obviously regularly not doing so. If a bit of extra walking and inconvenience mean these people cant get away without paying then I will gladly put up with the inconvenienc.

Agreed and I'm one of them "disabled" people people like to get the fiddle out about but the small hobble on the cane gives me more of a chance to see what's about, sadly mainly turbostars nowerdays, even if I miss my connection I claim delay repay so its a win>win>win,

 

[50002Superb]

I think we all knew it was coming, and this time probably won’t go away again. So typical of the railway - look after itself and its interests, and sod the adverse consequences and inconvenience for paying customers.

Completely agreee.

It’s smoke and mirrors on the part of EMR and won’t address their issues

 

[Discuss223]

EMR are closing access to the platforms from the footbridge again to "validate the benefits identified in recent pilot". The next closure will begin from Saturday 22nd February and will be kept "under review".

EMR to close access to platforms via Nottingham station's footbridge to validate the benefits identified in recent pilot | East Midlands Railway News

Access to platforms via Nottingham station's footbridge will be closed next month A recent pilot showed a significant increase in revenue during the footbridge closure—equating to a possible £1.1m per year There was also a significant improvement in safety and security at the station—including...

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

A few points on this matter.

Firstly "validate the benefits identified" sounds like jargon to 'muddy the waters'. The findings of the exercise are already calculated, not sure what they mean by validate but customers deserve operators to be clear with them about why they won't be able to use the footbridge.

Secondly, it's peculiar that "Customer Services Director" would be the spokesperson for this, surely a Revenue Protection Manager, such as Lisa Breeze would be best placed to explain what they are doing and why. I'd expect a Customer Services Director to be focussed on improving the customer experience, not worsening it.

As someone who always purchases a valid ticket before boarding and credits thousands of pounds in to the railway each year through my fare payments, this is disappointing to see. And before anyone says, I am well aware of fare evasion in the Nottingham area but I am entitled to an opinion as a customer and end user of the railways to voice my thoughts. Please respect that.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

I can foresee sale of tickets for Beeston* skyrocketing with passengers buying the cheapest fare to simply bypass the barriers at Nottingham in the hope of not getting checked on board when travelling further afield

(*Unless there is a cheaper fare available)

Surely most of the expensive destinations from Nottingham are ticket barriered. Sheffield is the only exception but guards always do ticket checks on the Liverpool and Leeds trains

 

[Discuss223]

Sheffield is the only exception but guards always do ticket checks on the Liverpool and Leeds trains

They certainly do and have "Penalty Fare Officers" as Northern like to call them regularly.

Though there may be a number of people who evade the fare, the majority of customers pay for their ticket at the first opportunity. The majority of their custom base will suffer for the way they target the minority.

I know that they have a need to protect revenue but they also have a duty to protect the interests of their fare-paying customers, many of whom are also tax payers, which EMR like to talk about often in their defence of such measures.


They could meet us in the middle and have more Revenue Protection Officers onboard to check tickets. Most of the RPOs are Rail Safety Accreditation Scheme accredited too, which would help tackle the anti-social behaviour that Train Managers & Senior Conductors face once the train has left the station. Alas, they seem determined to close it off.

 

[transportphoto]

knowing the risk of running into a RPI is low (and knowing that most guards will sell them a ticket regardless to avoid conflict)

What’s the alternative? Ask for name and address and hope they don’t reply with Donald Duck of 1313 Webfoot Walk?

Although given how much is being scammed out of Nottingham other stations like Sheffield must be hemorging money

I’m told EMR have some ideas for Sheffield.

Most of the RPOs are Rail Safety Accreditation Scheme accredited too

Are they? Northern’s maybe, I’m not so sure about EMR’s.

 

[Discuss223]

Are they? Northern’s maybe, I’m not so sure about EMR’s.

It was EMR's that I was referring to, I'm not sure about Northern. All EMR RPOs wearing body-worn CCTV are RSAS accredited.

 

[infobleep]

EMR are closing access to the platforms from the footbridge again to "validate the benefits identified in recent pilot". The next closure will begin from Saturday 22nd February and will be kept "under review".

EMR to close access to platforms via Nottingham station's footbridge to validate the benefits identified in recent pilot | East Midlands Railway News

Access to platforms via Nottingham station's footbridge will be closed next month A recent pilot showed a significant increase in revenue during the footbridge closure—equating to a possible £1.1m per year There was also a significant improvement in safety and security at the station—including...

news.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Intersting they are doing this. At Guildford, nothing has happened since they did a trail of closing the footbridge for customers going across. I know this is slightly different as both ends have barriers.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

They certainly do and have "Penalty Fare Officers" as Northern like to call them regularly.

Though there may be a number of people who evade the fare, the majority of customers pay for their ticket at the first opportunity. The majority of their custom base will suffer for the way they target the minority.

I know that they have a need to protect revenue but they also have a duty to protect the interests of their fare-paying customers, many of whom are also tax payers, which EMR like to talk about often in their defence of such measures.


They could meet us in the middle and have more Revenue Protection Officers onboard to check tickets. Most of the RPOs are Rail Safety Accreditation Scheme accredited too, which would help tackle the anti-social behaviour that Train Managers & Senior Conductors face once the train has left the station. Alas, they seem determined to close it off.

Yeah I completely agree that responses to fare evasion should not unduly disrupt the utility of actually using the railway. These changes will delay people's journeys especially transfers with the tram. I would support more RPOs honestly. Mostly because I think there's nothing more frustrating than paying an insanely expensive ticket and then not getting checked or encountering any barriers - feels like you've been significantly ripped off.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yeah I completely agree that responses to fare evasion should not unduly disrupt the utility of actually using the railway. These changes will delay people's journeys especially transfers with the tram. I would support more RPOs honestly. Mostly because I think there's nothing more frustrating than paying an insanely expensive ticket and then not getting checked or encountering any barriers - feels like you've been significantly ripped off.

There is something far more frustrating: paying for an insanely expensive ticket while someone else makes the same journey without doing so.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I’m told EMR have some ideas for Sheffield.

I'll have to keep a eye out, although Sheffield benefits from the staff bridge if they were to cloese their over bridge.

What is it with cities with trams causing cahos on their respective stations, Sheffield & Nottingham with rights of way issues and Blackpool North with their infamous staff.

Back to topic though I do hope they keep a pair of RPIs stationed at the gate on 7 to stop any more chanceres. It's still bitterly disappointing it's come to this nuclear stage though,

 

[infobleep]

There is something far more frustrating: paying for an insanely expensive ticket while someone else makes the same journey without doing so.

It is frustrating when paying for an insanely expensive ticket whilst someone else has figured out how to pay less whilst still holding a lawful ticket or combination of tickets?

I think fare evadors should do that rather than not paying full stop.

 

[LowLevel]

It was EMR's that I was referring to, I'm not sure about Northern. All EMR RPOs wearing body-worn CCTV are RSAS accredited.

Can you explain what you think this means, in the context of duties undertaken by these staff?

I have told you repeatedly, having been one of the senior conductors that you refer to for many years in charge of the trains you are posting about, that you appear to have entirely the wrong end of the proverbial stick but you keep asserting this statement without saying what you think it is they actually can, or perhaps, do actually do.

I can 100% assure you that the only difference between a Senior Conductor/Train Manager and an RPO in terms of on the spot application of the law is that the latter receive PACE training in terms of collecting evidence of fare evasion to a standard to allow it to be used in court and they are also authorised penalty fare collectors, whereas the two grades of train guards are only authorised collectors for unpaid fares and can issue notices for those. They also have the advantage of being able to leave the train with a person if necessary.

EMR RPOs have no powers of detention that they are permitted to use and certainly are not permitted to physically detain or remove people except in order to prevent serious injury or preserve life which is exactly the same as any other railway employee. If someone refuses to engage with them they do exactly the same as the guard, which is call the British Transport Police for assistance, and if necessary can seek assistance and safe refuge from the guard.

Apart from referencing RSAS you never actually say what it is that RPOs are meant to be able to do, except broad woolly terms.

 

[railsuntcommun]

No words to describe my anger, nor my contempt for EMR. For those travelling to the station from the east without a car this will add significant time onto the journey. For me, with a toddler, it's the difference between getting the train or driving, particularly once the disdain we're being shown is factored in. I love the railway, but hate those who run it.

 

[Travelmonkey]

No words to describe my anger, nor my contempt for EMR. For those travelling to the station from the east without a car this will add significant time onto the journey. For me, with a toddler, it's the difference between getting the train or driving, particularly once the disdain we're being shown is factored in. I love the railway, but hate those who run it.

So you support people shirking their fares as long as you can have a shortcut, that's good for you but I'm glad they are doing something, this 2nd attempt is a stupidity test if you were bleeding thousands of pounds you'd want to double check it wasn't just a one off,

 

[43066]

A sensible decision, given the lost revenue figures, which after all is taxpayers’ money. I’m surprised it has taken this long.

 

[Skymonster]

So you support people shirking their fares as long as you can have a shortcut, that's good for you but I'm glad they are doing something, this 2nd attempt is a stupidity test if you were bleeding thousands of pounds you'd want to double check it wasn't just a one off,

I don’t think anyone who honestly and diligently pays every time condones those who cheat the system, and supports operators who attempt to cut leakage. However, EMR is taking a cheap and dirty approach when there are alternatives that would have less impact: a few padlocks cost a lot less than revenue protecting bridge access with staff or barriers on the platforms at the bottom of the bridge stairs. As I said previously, it is so typical of railway mentality that it puts paying-customer convenience at the bottom of the list.

 

[tram21]

Nottingham local here.

One of the biggest issues at Nottingham is all the nearby local stations. All the stations on the Newark line, the Robin Hood line and the Skegness line are mostly all small stations, with just one ticket machine.

There's definitely a culture of 'pay-on-board' from all of these stations: it's not that people specifically want to fare evade and will pay up when the guard comes, but more often than not if it's a busy peak time service with all the stops the guard won't have time to come round, so they don't pay.

Everyone knows that you can just leave Nottingham bypassing the barriers, so if you don't manage to buy a ticket you can just leave. These people are also aware you have to buy on board, but no-one will ever challenge someone doing that on these routes.

The way I would tackle this is to introduce ticket barriers on the bridge, but let anyone who needs the RoW through. The majority of these people will be travelling to Nottingham on the Outward journey, and back from on the return. Therefore, they will always buy a return ticket as it would be impossible to leave the station without a ticket. Sure, it'd be quite easy to enter by just asking to use the RoW but 1) these people will have bought returns which are normally 10p more expensive than a single and 2) these people aren't fare evaders and only don't pay purely because it's easier not to. If there's a deterrent of a barrier, they'll just buy a ticket!

 

[Travelmonkey]

I don’t think anyone who honestly and diligently pays every time condones those who cheat the system, and supports operators who attempt to cut leakage. However, EMR is taking a cheap and dirty approach when there are alternatives that would have less impact: a few padlocks cost a lot less than revenue protecting bridge access with staff or barriers on the platforms at the bottom of the bridge stairs. As I said previously, it is so typical of railway mentality that it puts paying-customer convenience at the bottom of the list.

Likely gotta prove it to the higher ups that its justified, although alot of stations are only reliant on the singular passageway (footbridge/Subway) so having one main one is likely the idea to centralise, hopefully round 2 can justify the extra staff and spend for a more holistic approach for the middle bridge, but again if people didn't cheat the system and the 1st trial proved no difference we wouldn't need further action!.

 

[43066]

but again if people didn't cheat the system and the 1st trial proved no difference we wouldn't need further action!.

Precisely. Plus the reduction in anti social behaviour that @LowLevel mentions above is a significant additional benefit of closing the footbridge access.

 

[Skymonster]

Likely gotta prove it to the higher ups that its justified, although alot of stations are only reliant on the singular passageway (footbridge/Subway) so having one main one is likely the idea to centralise, hopefully round 2 can justify the extra staff and spend for a more holistic approach for the middle bridge, but again if people didn't cheat the system and the 1st trial proved no difference we wouldn't need further action!.

All it really needs is barrier arrays at the bottom of the steps either side of the bridge on Platforms 1/2/3, on 4/5/6 and maybe on 7. The issue I suspect is that these would then need to be staffed and EMR would rather buy a few electronic padlocks than increase staff and maintain facilities and convenience for its paying customers.

 

[43066]

All it really needs is barrier arrays at the bottom of the steps either side of the bridge on Platforms 1/2/3, on 4/5/6 and maybe on 7. The issue I suspect is that these would then need to be staffed and EMR would rather buy a few electronic padlocks than increase staff and maintain facilities and convenience for its paying customers.

Except that it’s a public right of way, so it’s by no means clear that they would be allowed to block it with barriers at either end. Barriers onto the platforms wouldn’t fit easily and would be excessively labour intensive when there’s already the main gateline to man. In reality they’d be left open most of the time, and we’d be back to square one.