UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[bspahh]

By the time the warranty has run out and/or the manufacturer is no longer releasing software updates, issues like this will all have been worked out.
It's not going to randomly develop bugs years later.

As the car ages, the signals from the sensors can degrade. This can be from dirt, bad contacts, water damage, cracked solder joints. This can end up sending signals that the software was not designed to handle.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...ivate-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles lists a few different warning lights that would give an MOT failure (for air bags, ABS, power steering, traction control, stability control, engine management etc).

I had some water damage to the electrics in a rear door, which meant that it wouldn't unlock. I was told that it would be an MOT failure.

 

[AM9]

I had some water damage to the electrics in a rear door, which meant that it wouldn't unlock. I was told that it would be an MOT failure.

Which would be a safety failure as route of egress was not available. Perfectly reasonable.

 

[trebor79]

As the car ages, the signals from the sensors can degrade. This can be from dirt, bad contacts, water damage, cracked solder joints. This can end up sending signals that the software was not designed to handle.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...ivate-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles lists a few different warning lights that would give an MOT failure (for air bags, ABS, power steering, traction control, stability control, engine management etc).

I had some water damage to the electrics in a rear door, which meant that it wouldn't unlock. I was told that it would be an MOT failure.

So the fix for that is to replace the damaged or failed components, not a software update.

 

[cactustwirly]

As the car ages, the signals from the sensors can degrade. This can be from dirt, bad contacts, water damage, cracked solder joints. This can end up sending signals that the software was not designed to handle.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-ins...ivate-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles lists a few different warning lights that would give an MOT failure (for air bags, ABS, power steering, traction control, stability control, engine management etc).

I had some water damage to the electrics in a rear door, which meant that it wouldn't unlock. I was told that it would be an MOT failure.

ABS lights are common, but the sensors are cheap and easy to replace.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Nonsense. Follow the manufacturers recommendations on the handbook that comes with the car.

So does your 14 year old car still have a manufacturer warranty on the engine and gearbox?
Did it have an 8 year 120,000 mile warranty from new?

No it doesn't. It's different advice for different types of battery. Just do what the manual says.

The difference between the ICE and EV is not the guarantee or perhaps the life of the engine vs battery BUT from what I understand the battery for an EV is a hell of a lot more expensive to replace.

The use of lots of things will be relatively new if they are used by a different industry, it doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't suitable.

For example, batteries in phones at some point was relatively new, as technology improved so has the batteries in phones.

As others have pointed out the batteries in cars have improved from the early Leaf versions. In 10 years time they'll be better still than currently, however with the average car age at scrapping being about 15 years old there will be some less good cars but they'll be mostly being used infrequently and/or for shorter journeys. In the same way that older ICE vehicles are.

For example, even amongst those who buy older cars, few would consider a petrol car with 140,000 miles on the clock. However, those who have such a car may well be happy to keep running it for a few more years if it generally keeps going. (I know we've just got rid of a petrol car with 160,000 miles on the clock and that was because the last few years or just struggled with the emissions test on the MOT but just passed).

Likewise, once someone had an older EV, as long as the battery is good enough they keep running the car, even if others wouldn't buy it.

Of course different people have different levels of acceptable risk. Some will drive a 20 year old car whilst others only want a sub 4 year old car whilst it's under warranty and with breakdown cover. Same with EV's some will buy one to try it out, others won't buy one unless they can be sure that it'll do 700 miles on a single charge (even though they'll do far less than that).

I have not found older ICEs to have a higher risk of failure. It depends on make+model, how well they have been serviced and if they have been totally ragged.

My twenty two years with Vauxhall Carltons (7-30 years old) included a lot less issues than people were having with even new cars !.

I'd also say a current 13 year old car is far better than a 13 year old car built in the 1970s/1980s

Oh the rust !.
Even engineering wise most ICEs are better than they were from the 1980s.

Ok, but this isn’t a myth / fact issue; it’s the circumstances you live in and (perhaps) an unwillingness to consider how small changes in your circumstances would make an EV attractive.

I think from earlier posts that you have no off street parking. You consider that an issue, but the fact is that it is perfectly possible to have an EV and not have off street parking. I know several people who do this now. Some still charge at home (when they do manage to park outside their home) by running a cable across the pavement (with a cable ramp). Most charge elsewhere - at the shops (often free), at work (some get that free), at car parks, or at charging stations where charges vary. It’s entirely possible, and on average works out cheaper in energy for all of them than an ICE, and (crucially), takes less of their time to do so.

In terms of costs of the cars themselves, well that comes down to age of the car you might want to buy. If you are only ever in the market for a 10 year old car with 80k+miles on the clock, you are limited to what EVs are out there (albeit there are many more now than even a year ago). But if that is the case, then that is something that will rapidly change, and frankly the proortion of car buyers who are in that segment of the market is rather a small percentage.
..............................

The above fairly well applies to me. I see it as purchase cost, risk of battery failure and ease of charging. I really would like access to convenient charging so I can benefit from the cheapest charging rates and particularly over night. Somewhere I can leave the car without getting asked to move it as I am hogging a charging space (or vice versa). A short range banger would not work for longer trips.

A year or so ago, I saw on a forum that there were issues with the collision avoidance on KIA Niros. It would apply the brakes when it detected a problem.

It seemed to be caused by noisy data from the sensors. This was for nearly new car, with a 7 year manufacturers warranty. The fix was to clean or replace the sensors, and then update the software to handle the noisy data.
I assume that that issue will have been fixed, as it will be covered by the warranty. However, I wonder whether how many manufacturers will decide they can't be bothered supporting an old car, when it is out of warranty and just focus on selling new ones. They might not release the source code for the firmware.


..........................

There will always be problems with new technology whether added to ICE or EV. But for me an EV is a lot of new things going on so best tread with caution. Perhaps Nissan with their Leaf have let the EV world down a bit. It will take time for people to forget that surprise.

Also calling the EV battery a er battery might be disingenuous. After all the battery in an ICE needs changing fairly often (it is however small so cheap). What proportion of mobiles reach the end of their life due to batter life ?. Is the word battery a dirty word ?.

Overall for me it is a time will tell situation. Once I see prices coming down and reliability established for certain makes+models over ten years old I hope I can find a safe bet. I rely on the rest of the world buying cars because they want new and fashionable. The ones I buy do not feature in adverts on TV by the time I am interested !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The difference between the ICE and EV is not the guarantee or perhaps the life of the engine vs battery BUT from what I understand the battery for an EV is a hell of a lot more expensive to replace.

While some do do it, most people won't replace a complete engine in a car. It'll be old and badly corroded by the time it needs that anyway. So it's kind of irrelevant.

Reconditioning engines is mostly a classic car thing, and as there aren't any classic EVs yet it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion and so a non-issue.

 

[Peter Sarf]

While some do do it, most people won't replace a complete engine in a car. It'll be old and badly corroded by the time it needs that anyway. So it's kind of irrelevant.

Reconditioning engines is mostly a classic car thing, and as there aren't any classic EVs yet it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion and so a non-issue.

The issue is that if I did need to replace the battery in an EV it is a lot more expensive than an engine swap. Some of that will be more spare engines available whereas EV batteries might be hard to come by secondhand if they generally suffer more over time. It is possibly the same for repair - I do feel there is a future for experts in rebuilding battery packs mixing and matching compatible (by age and condition) cells.

Because of the Leaf it would appear that many more EV owners need to replace the battery in their car than would be the case for ICEs. I am sure that is still an improving statistic and the Leaf has skewed the statistics. Mind you there were always ICE cars that were bad examples in the past - Lada.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is that if I did need to replace the battery in an EV it is a lot more expensive than an engine swap. Some of that will be more spare engines available whereas EV batteries might be hard to come by secondhand if they generally suffer more over time.

I don't take into account the need to swap an engine because needing to do so when you've maintained it correctly usually means the car is old and so it's not worthwhile anyway, classics excepted. But classics are not relevant to the discussion in the slightest - they are hobbies, not modes of transport, plus there are no classic EVs (aside from milk floats) and won't be for some time.

How many times have you replaced an engine in an ICE in your lifetime? I'm betting it's zero, or if not then it's 1. And if it's 1 I'm betting it was before about 1980.

Because of the Leaf it would appear that many more EV owners need to replace their battery in their car than would be the case for ICEs. I am sure that is still an improving statistic and the Leaf has skewed the statistics. Mind you there were always ICE cars that were bad examples in the past - Lada.

I'm not sure quite how many times it's going to be necessary to explain why the Leaf is different, but here goes anyway. The Leaf did not have active battery cooling. All other EVs since (so far as I am aware) do have active battery cooling. This reduces battery deterioration to the point that the car will have rusted to nothing before the range gets so low it has no value. Even given this, most Leafs built are still on the road, just often relegated to runaround duties owned by people with driveways and chargers, for whom something like a 50 mile real world range is perfectly adequate. Of those that aren't, the components (particularly the motors) have often been used to convert classics to electric - apparently it's quite popular to convert Series Land Rovers using Leaf components.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Whilst I doubt that there is a big risk of battery failure (either total, to such an extent that it renders the vehicle all but useless), I'd predict that IF that situation DOES arise, then there will come, alongside it, an industry in battery reconditioning. Much like engine replacement, that, I'd imagine, will similarly bring costs down. It is of course going to depend on demand, which in turn will depend on the real-world probability of failure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I doubt that there is a big risk of battery failure (either total, to such an extent that it renders the vehicle all but useless), I'd predict that IF that situation DOES arise, then there will come, alongside it, an industry in battery reconditioning.

And in battery warranties, I'd expect.

I'm not convinced it will, though. Once a car is past the 8 years battery warranty it already has (see above as to why they're all this - basically it's part of the conditions of classing as a ZEV) it'll be worth relatively little anyway, as a result of which a major failure is to most just a write-off, just as it is for an ICE, but an outright failure is even less likely than for an ICE. People just don't consider this when buying ICEs, and they don't need to when buying EVs either.

On an old car, it's economically infeasible to replace an engine, just as it's economically infeasible to replace a battery pack. That one is more expensive is irrelevant, really - you just scrap the car and get another. That's how bangernomics works - you buy an old car, get it through as many MoTs as you cheaply can, then scrap it when it fails requiring expensive work or it just falls to bits. You don't, unless emotionally attached to it*, spend thousands on a ten or more year old car. It simply doesn't make any sense to do so.

Yes, if you're yourself a competent mechanic who would rebuild engines in their spare time it's different, but people in that position are so rare that they might as well be the RailUK Standard Minority and thus are not worth considering at all. Unless you're such a person, in which case it probably makes sense for you to stick with ICE for a bit longer, but it is really quite churlish and biased to suggest that you should apply the same criteria to someone else who is not an expert mechanic.

* In which case you're treating it as a classic even if it isn't - i.e. spending far more than economically sensible on upkeep because you emotionally want to keep it, even though rationally you should scrap it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't take into account the need to swap an engine because needing to do so when you've maintained it correctly usually means the car is old and so it's not worthwhile anyway, classics excepted. But classics are not relevant to the discussion in the slightest - they are hobbies, not modes of transport, plus there are no classic EVs (aside from milk floats) and won't be for some time.

How many times have you replaced an engine in an ICE in your lifetime? I'm betting it's zero, or if not then it's 1. And if it's 1 I'm betting it was before about 1980.

I nearly did swap an engine once - it was going to cost me less than £500. The donor vehicle turned to be in better condition than the patient. So the patient went to that motorway in the sky !.

But I am still unsure how long an EV battery would on average last. It seems to be less than a well looked after ICE engine.

How much would buying and changing the battery pack in an EV cost ?.

I'm not sure quite how many times it's going to be necessary to explain why the Leaf is different, but here goes anyway. The Leaf did not have active battery cooling. All other EVs since (so far as I am aware) do have active battery cooling. This reduces battery deterioration to the point that the car will have rusted to nothing before the range gets so low it has no value. Even given this, most Leafs built are still on the road, just often relegated to runaround duties owned by people with driveways and chargers, for whom something like a 50 mile real world range is perfectly adequate. Of those that aren't, the components (particularly the motors) have often been used to convert classics to electric - apparently it's quite popular to convert Series Land Rovers using Leaf components.

Sorry. I did not make it clear - I understand the Leaf is old EV tech (10 years old). It is obvious that newer EVs will not have the same issue. But until we see proof that there are no NEW/different surprises lurking in newer EVs there will always be that uncertainty/paranoia. I do expect things will be better (it is reasonably likely) but until there are lots of EVs out there doing fine after 15 years the banger buyers are going to be cautious.

And for many the issues with the Leaf however isolated and now avoided are still giving EVs a bad reputation.

And in battery warranties, I'd expect.

I'm not convinced it will, though. Once a car is past the 8 years battery warranty it already has (see above as to why they're all this - basically it's part of the conditions of classing as a ZEV) it'll be worth relatively little anyway, as a result of which a major failure is to most just a write-off, just as it is for an ICE, but an outright failure is even less likely than for an ICE. People just don't consider this when buying ICEs, and they don't need to when buying EVs either.

On an old car, it's economically infeasible to replace an engine, just as it's economically infeasible to replace a battery pack. That one is more expensive is irrelevant, really - you just scrap the car and get another. That's how bangernomics works - you buy an old car, get it through as many MoTs as you cheaply can, then scrap it when it fails requiring expensive work or it just falls to bits. You don't, unless emotionally attached to it*, spend thousands on a ten or more year old car. It simply doesn't make any sense to do so.

Yes, if you're yourself a competent mechanic who would rebuild engines in their spare time it's different, but people in that position are so rare that they might as well be the RailUK Standard Minority and thus are not worth considering at all. Unless you're such a person, in which case it probably makes sense for you to stick with ICE for a bit longer, but it is really quite churlish and biased to suggest that you should apply the same criteria to someone else who is not an expert mechanic.

* In which case you're treating it as a classic even if it isn't - i.e. spending far more than economically sensible on upkeep because you emotionally want to keep it, even though rationally you should scrap it.

My point is will there be enough EVs around with usable batteries that are cheap enough to buy as and when it is time to spit out the current one that is now past it ?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I nearly did swap an engine once - it was going to cost me less than £500. The donor vehicle turned to be in better condition than the patient. So the patient went to that motorway in the sky !.

So the number of times you have had to swap an engine is zero. As I expected. Therefore it's just not a consideration. If the engine dies, you scrap the car. If the battery pack dies, you scrap the car. That one is three times the cost is irrelevant - it is simply too expensive a thing to do to an old car other than if it's being cherished as a classic, and almost nobody buys a car expecting it to become that.

But I am still unsure how long an EV battery would on average last. It seems to be less than a well looked after ICE engine.

All evidence so far is that it might well be longer.

How much would buying and changing the battery pack in an EV cost ?.

It's irrelevant. If it fails, you'll scrap the car, like most people do if an ICE completely fails (e.g. due to a cambelt snapping).

My point is will there be enough EVs around with usable batteries that are cheap enough to buy as and when it is time to spit out the current one that is now past it ?.

Yes, of course there will. There is no evidence whatsoever of short lifespans.

The Leaf came out in 2010, so the oldest examples are now 14 and a bit years old. Nothing has emerged to suggest these aren't lasting. The battery range tends to be low by then, but that's commensurate with the sort of use case people have for cheap runarounds, and (again) it is only a problem with the Leaf specificially as that car, and only that car, lacks active battery cooling.

The only people who might be a bit disadvantaged are teens who buy old cars and run them for far more than they can reliably do, e.g. longer trips, but to be honest it's getting to the point where hardly any of them can afford the insurance anyway.

Yes, some people will have their own paranoias about change, as do many on this thread. But those paranoias are not rooted in any kind of fact. About the only reasons left not to buy an EV are that they're more expensive than ICEs (but this is changing) and the availability of charging (which does need some improvement), or just that you enjoy driving an ICE and have test driven an EV and didn't like it as much (in which case just be honest and don't come up with false explanations, and don't claim that unless you have actually driven one as most of the time I hear that when petrolheads do they love it due to the responsiveness and fast acceleration even in the cheapest models). Reliability is just not an issue.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So the number of times you have had to swap an engine is zero. As I expected. Therefore it's just not a consideration. If the engine dies, you scrap the car. If the battery pack dies, you scrap the car. That one is three times the cost is irrelevant - it is simply too expensive a thing to do to an old car other than if it's being cherished as a classic, and almost nobody buys a car expecting it to become that.



All evidence so far is that it might well be longer.



It's irrelevant. If it fails, you'll scrap the car, like most people do if an ICE completely fails (e.g. due to a cambelt snapping).



Yes, of course there will. There is no evidence whatsoever of short lifespans.

The Leaf came out in 2010, so the oldest examples are now 14 and a bit years old. Nothing has emerged to suggest these aren't lasting. The battery range tends to be low by then, but that's commensurate with the sort of use case people have for cheap runarounds, and (again) it is only a problem with the Leaf specificially as that car, and only that car, lacks active battery cooling.

The only people who might be a bit disadvantaged are teens who buy old cars and run them for far more than they can reliably do, e.g. longer trips, but to be honest it's getting to the point where hardly any of them can afford the insurance anyway.

Yes, some people will have their own paranoias about change, as do many on this thread. But those paranoias are not rooted in any kind of fact. About the only reasons left not to buy an EV are that they're more expensive than ICEs (but this is changing) and the availability of charging (which does need some improvement), or just that you enjoy driving an ICE and have test driven an EV and didn't like it as much (in which case just be honest and don't come up with false explanations, and don't claim that unless you have actually driven one as most of the time I hear that when petrolheads do they love it due to the responsiveness and fast acceleration even in the cheapest models). Reliability is just not an issue.

I just hope there will definitely be enough old banger EVs around to keep second hand prices reasonable. If batteries last well then obviously replacement battery cost is irrelevant. If there are still problems at say 15 years then it follows second hand batteries (or whole EVs0 will be in demand and also in short supply.

As for range. I would want reasonable range for my longer trips and I suspect others of all ages buying bangers will want to be able to do longer trips as well as just local trips.

 

[GLC]

The Leaf came out in 2010, so the oldest examples are now 14 and a bit years old. Nothing has emerged to suggest these aren't lasting. The battery range tends to be low by then, but that's commensurate with the sort of use case people have for cheap runarounds, and (again) it is only a problem with the Leaf specificially as that car, and only that car, lacks active battery cooling.

Nope. The Renault Zoe also has an air cooled battery.

 

[Bald Rick]

The above fairly well applies to me. I see it as purchase cost, risk of battery failure and ease of charging. I really would like access to convenient charging so I can benefit from the cheapest charging rates and particularly over night. Somewhere I can leave the car without getting asked to move it as I am hogging a charging space (or vice versa). A short range banger would not work for longer trips.

Risk of a battery failure that will materially affect how the car operates will be minute.

Re the cheapest charging rates - understandable but…. Surely having charging that is cheaper than petrol is still attractive? Put another way, if someone offered you 20% off your petrol bill if you parked it overnight in a car park 10 minutes walk away once a fortnight, would you do that? That is essentially what will happen for the small proportion of EV owners without access to home charging and workplace charging and are not willing to charge on their travels at higher rates.

Whilst I doubt that there is a big risk of battery failure (either total, to such an extent that it renders the vehicle all but useless), I'd predict that IF that situation DOES arise, then there will come, alongside it, an industry in battery reconditioning. Much like engine replacement, that, I'd imagine, will similarly bring costs down. It is of course going to depend on demand, which in turn will depend on the real-world probability of failure.

And in battery warranties, I'd expect.

Agreed. I suspect there will be quite a competitive market in ‘EV battery insurance’, ie post warranty protection for if your battery falls below a certain capacity / usefullness. It is what insurance was designed for, ie very low probability / high impact events. The insurers will make a fortune.

But I am still unsure how long an EV battery would on average last.

On average, somewhat longer than the average car of any type. There’s plenty of ebidence out there to support this. Most EV batteries will be recovered from their hosts once the car has had it and used in grid storage sites.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Risk of a battery failure that will materially affect how the car operates will be minute.

That looks promsisng.

Re the cheapest charging rates - understandable but…. Surely having charging that is cheaper than petrol is still attractive? Put another way, if someone offered you 20% off your petrol bill if you parked it overnight in a car park 10 minutes walk away once a fortnight, would you do that? That is essentially what will happen for the small proportion of EV owners without access to home charging and workplace charging and are not willing to charge on their travels at higher rates.

I am likely to walk for ten minutes or more anyway - do that for the shopping trip. My Morrisons has car charging there BUT you cannot leave the car there for more then two (2 iirc) hours. Fingers crossed that will be something that HAS to change.

Mind you many car owners I can think of would never walk for five minutes ! - that is a cultural change that has to happen and is cheaper than joining a gym !.

Agreed. I suspect there will be quite a competitive market in ‘EV battery insurance’, ie post warranty protection for if your battery falls below a certain capacity / usefullness. It is what insurance was designed for, ie very low probability / high impact events. The insurers will make a fortune.

Knowing how insurance works it follows that if no one offers insurance for EV batteries then it means the risk is too high !.
Not saying you are wrong but that will be the indicator.

On average, somewhat longer than the average car of any type. There’s plenty of ebidence out there to support this. Most EV batteries will be recovered from their hosts once the car has had it and used in grid storage sites.

That could be bad news for old banger EV owners. But then again if they are that good then it won't matter !.

One day ideally I would have off street parking and the main purpose of my banger would be to balance my domestic electricity usage !.
Can you imagine me stopping the missus doing the laundry because I want to go out in the car !.
That would be a nice problem to have.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can you imagine me stopping the missus doing the laundry because I want to go out in the car !.

No, because you won’t need to. In the same way as you don’t have to stop doing the laundry to put the oven on. The max power drawn through typical home chargers is less than 30% of the capacity of a domestic supply circuit.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No, because you won’t need to. In the same way as you don’t have to stop doing the laundry to put the oven on. The max power drawn through thpical home chargers is less than 30% of the capacity of a domestic supply circuit.

I was thinking if the car was also the home charger !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope. The Renault Zoe also has an air cooled battery.

Thanks. So two, then.

The norm is active fluid cooling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

I just hope there will definitely be enough old banger EVs around to keep second hand prices reasonable.

Unless there is a signficant drop in car ownership as a whole there's no reason why there wouldn't be. Just not yet as the oldest mainstream EVs are only 14 years old and most are newer.

In 20-30 years' time almost all cars will be EVs aside from classics and the odd stubborn person who won't change. ULEZs and the likes will have been forgotten about as there just won't be enough ICEs to be a problem. And someone will be parading their classic 2010 Leaf at a car rally of some kind.

 

[Ediswan]

No, because you won’t need to. In the same way as you don’t have to stop doing the laundry to put the oven on. The max power drawn through typical home chargers is less than 30% of the capacity of a domestic supply circuit.

Close. A '7kW' charger will draw a maximum of 32A. The largest common domestic UK mains supply is 100A, but could be only 60A. So 32-53%

 

[Bletchleyite]

Close. A '7kW' charger will draw a maximum of 32A. The largest common domestic UK mains supply is 100A, but could be only 60A. So 32-53%

So you might have a problem if you're trying to charge and cook the Christmas dinner at the same time if you're on a smaller supply. Or if you heat your house solely through radiant heating, but as that's so expensive to run you're probably so rich in that case that getting the supply upgraded would likely be a non-issue.

But like most "I'm not getting an EV because" lines, this is the temporal equivalent of our good old Standard Minority, because most days you're not doing that, you're only using part of your cooker's functions and so not getting anywhere near maxing out its typically 32A-40A breaker. There are a few decent reasons not to, primarily relating to the charging network away from home, but it amazes me why people seem to see that they have to make them up.

 

[JamesT]

Thanks. So two, then.

The norm is active fluid cooling.

A quick look at Autotrader and pretty much the only cheap used EVs (sub-£10k) are Leafs and Zoes.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Hmmm:

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

(This is the type of car I have, but mine is the more equipped SE version).

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

Close. A '7kW' charger will draw a maximum of 32A. The largest common domestic UK mains supply is 100A, but could be only 60A. So 32-53%

Yes, 32A off 100A waswhat i was referring to.

A quick look at Autotrader and pretty much the only cheap used EVs (sub-£10k) are Leafs and Zoes.

Except that’s not true. There’s 910 EVs for sale on Trader at £10k or less nationally.

332 are Nissan Leaf (Leaves???)
220 are Renault Zoes

The other 358 are other makes and models, including VWs, BMWs, Hyundais, Vauxhalls, Seats, Peugeots, MGs, Mercs, Minis, and I’ll stop because I’m boring people.

Go a price bracket up, £10k-£15k, for which it can be reasonably assumed most will be sub £10k within a couple of years, Then there’s 4,309 EVs for sale, of which only 785 are Leaf / Zoe, and the other 3,524 are other makes & Models.

 

[Ediswan]

So you might have a problem if you're trying to charge and cook the Christmas dinner at the same time if you're on a smaller supply. Or if you heat your house solely through radiant heating, but as that's so expensive to run you're probably so rich in that case that getting the supply upgraded would likely be a non-issue.

There is another solution. The technology exists to give 'domestic' use priority over EV charging. If the total current would exceed the supply rating (or whatever margin is set), the EV charge rate is reduced accordingly. Once the domestic load reduces, the EV charge rate can go back up. I know somebody who has this so they can comfortably use two 7kW chargers with a 100A supply.

 

[JamesT]

Except that’s not true. There’s 910 EVs for sale on Trader at £10k or less nationally.

332 are Nissan Leaf (Leaves???)
220 are Renault Zoes

The other 358 are other makes and models, including VWs, BMWs, Hyundais, Vauxhalls, Seats, Peugeots, MGs, Mercs, Minis, and I’ll stop because I’m boring people.

Go a price bracket up, £10k-£15k, for which it can be reasonably assumed most will be sub £10k within a couple of years, Then there’s 4,309 EVs for sale, of which only 785 are Leaf / Zoe, and the other 3,524 are other makes & Models.

My mistake, they insert paid adverts in the listings, so I saw half a dozen cheap models around £2k which were 5/6 Leaf/Zoe, then something more expensive and didn't scroll down further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My mistake, they insert paid adverts in the listings, so I saw half a dozen cheap models around £2k which were 5/6 Leaf/Zoe, then something more expensive and didn't scroll down further.

If what you're looking for is banger territory, which these days is around £1-2K (very few sub £1000 cars that will run for very long now), EVs aren't quite there yet as they haven't existed for long enough. But in time they will.

 

[paul1609]

No, because you won’t need to. In the same way as you don’t have to stop doing the laundry to put the oven on. The max power drawn through typical home chargers is less than 30% of the capacity of a domestic supply circuit.

That may be a bit optimistic if you take the typical car charger to be 7kw (30 am p ish). If you live in a rural area with overhead supply it's likely that your main supply fuse has or will be downgraded to 63 amps when your smart meter is/was upgraded. I'm the treasurer / maintenance man of the village hall. The local council was dead keen that we have 2 x 7kw chargers installed as it would fill a hole in their green credentials map. That enthusiasm evaporated when I passed on UK power networks quote for £58k plus vat for the 80a single phase power supply to be up graded. I suspect for an awful lot of people in the sticks it's going to be EV charger or heat pump but not both.

 

[Noddy]

Nope. The Renault Zoe also has an air cooled battery.

The difference is that although it is ‘air cooled’ like the Leaf, it was actively air cooled using the A/C system to blow cold air around the pack. Therefore it could actively cool (to some degree) the battery. Not as good as a liquid cooled system which everything else uses but far better than the Leaf which basically had nothing actively cooling the pack and so would cook itself when rapid charging or other heavy load.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may be a bit optimistic if you take the typical car charger to be 7kw (30 am p ish). If you live in a rural area with overhead supply it's likely that your main supply fuse has or will be downgraded to 63 amps when your smart meter is/was upgraded. I'm the treasurer / maintenance man of the village hall. The local council was dead keen that we have 2 x 7kw chargers installed as it would fill a hole in their green credentials map. That enthusiasm evaporated when I passed on UK power networks quote for £58k plus vat for the 80a single phase power supply to be up graded. I suspect for an awful lot of people in the sticks it's going to be EV charger or heat pump but not both.

Not really, because car charging mostly happens overnight whereas the heating you mostly want on during the day. There's also the option of fitting a home battery which allows demand to be spread out and the incorporation of stuff like solar panels.

What it probably will do is kill Economy 7 because overnight won't be a low demand time any more, it'll be much more even. But most people aren't on Economy 7 anyway, as storage heaters are absolute junk.

Also your heat pump won't be drawing 30A, because that would cost an absolute fortune. That's three large oil radiators. OK, people with massive houses maybe, but a typical 3 bed terrace? Won't be anywhere near that.