Brighton Belle On Test 28/01/25

[Sun Chariot]

Yes, high intensity headlamps are fitted. The BB never had headlights, so has no grandfather rights to operate with lights that don't meet current standards. They don't look great, but think it would be worse with a yellow panel.

The yellow didn’t flatter cab ends of the units at all, when they ran in corporate blue-grey.

 

[Deepgreen]

Possibly. But aren't the power bogies on the end cars, like a CEP? They certainly were on the units as built.

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It should go to New Brighton!

They are power bogies, but they are a later design - I'm guessing CIG/BIG.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I can't find the Brighton belle restoration website that was documenting the work on the train.

Their website seems to be undergoing remedial work. Hardly the ideal week! Unless it's cyber related maintenance.

Bringing back THE BRIGHTON BELLE | THE BRIGHTON BELLE

www.brightonbelle.com

 

[Ted633]

They are power bogies, but they are a later design - I'm guessing CIG/BIG.

Correct, from CIGs. Vehicles from 4 units (1304, 1392, 1881 & 1884) were scrapped for parts. Some of these vehicles were initially 'saved' from scrap for restoration to mainline standards at Eastleigh (in 2008 I think), however that all went quiet and the inevitable happened. At least some use has been made of the parts.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Interesting that it's now presumably twice as powerful as a 4-CIG. Four motor bogies per 4-car unit versus two on a CIG. Gives plenty in reserve for adding a fifth car later.

 

[trainmania100]

Their website seems to be undergoing remedial work. Hardly the ideal week! Unless it's cyber related maintenance.

Bringing back THE BRIGHTON BELLE | THE BRIGHTON BELLE

www.brightonbelle.com

Must have been down a while then if it's dropped out of Google search. You'd think the old pages would still be indexed

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Looking forward to seeing it on the Brighton line expresses

 

[Sun Chariot]

Interesting that it's now presumably twice as powerful as a 4-CIG. Four motor bogies per 4-car unit versus two on a CIG. Gives plenty in reserve for adding a fifth car later.

Pathing the BEL between modern stock, I suspect means the acceleration will be a necessity rather than a nice-to-have.

 

[DustyBin]

Pathing the BEL between modern stock, I suspect means the acceleration will be a necessity rather than a nice-to-have.

To be fair the CIGs etc. weren’t sluggish, and operated alongside modern stock. I’m sure the additional power won’t go amiss though as you say, especially with the extra weight.

 

[contrex]

Under the solebar I understand it is essentially a 4CEP, and as such can work in multiple with a 33/1 or 73, extending its geographical range to places like Salisbury, Swanage and Bath

I hope the misbegotten monstrosity doesn't come anywhere near the West Country. It's scarcely more authentic than a Belmond British Pullman with shoegear.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I hope the misbegotten monstrosity doesn't come anywhere near the West Country. It's scarcely more authentic than a Belmond British Pullman with shoegear.

Rest assured, west of Dorchester and Weymouth there's a distinct lack of third rail-y thing.

 

[Ted633]

Interesting that it's now presumably twice as powerful as a 4-CIG. Four motor bogies per 4-car unit versus two on a CIG. Gives plenty in reserve for adding a fifth car later.

Does each driving car have 2 motor bogies though? Tricky to see from videos and little other info is available without the main website. Some of the scrapped vehicles were from 'greyhound' units, so performance should still be reasonable with only 2 motor bogies if it was those vehicles that were the motor donors.

 

[yorksrob]

I quite like the idea of a trip from London to Brighton on this, scoffing kippers and swilling back gin and tonic like the regular punters used to !

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair the CIGs etc. weren’t sluggish, and operated alongside modern stock. I’m sure the additional power won’t go amiss though as you say, especially with the extra weight.

Were any of the donor vehicles "Greyhound" units?

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It should go to New Brighton!

Well done!

New Brighton to Brighton would be a good run... though you'd need quite a run-up (and clear signals) to coast between Chester and Farringdon!

 

[ExRes]

I hope the misbegotten monstrosity doesn't come anywhere near the West Country. It's scarcely more authentic than a Belmond British Pullman with shoegear.

I hear a tour hauled by an original Class 69 will be heading Westwards as soon as it can be arranged .......

 

[DustyBin]

Were any of the donor vehicles "Greyhound" units?

1304 was, I don't think any of the others were but I'm not 100% certain. IIRC the Greyhounds were numbered 1301-1322 (someone more knowledgeable may be able to confirm!).

 

[eastwestdivide]

Does each driving car have 2 motor bogies though? Tricky to see from videos and little other info is available without the main website. Some of the scrapped vehicles were from 'greyhound' units, so performance should still be reasonable with only 2 motor bogies if it was those vehicles that were the motor donors.

Good question. That’s what I understood, but I don’t have a definitive source.
If it was only 1 per driving car, it would end up underpowered compared to a CIG once the 5th car was added. In fact the pullman bodies are probably (?) heavier than Mk1s, so even a 4-car “new BEL” with equivalent power to a CIG would be a bit underpowered by comparison. I’m sure we’ll find out in due course.
edit: a poster on a.n.other forum says 4 motor bogies on the new Belle unit

 

[WAO]

If they do have a two motor bogie DMS at each end then they are more akin to a 4REP than a 4CEP but with 185kW EE507 TM's rather than the the 300kW EE546B's of the Bournemouth line trains.

A CIG weighed 148t but a REP weighed 175t.

I would love to see a test on Merseyrail, but would stand well away from the circuit breakers!

WAO

 

[Fincra5]

I believe, like the original 5-BEL it has 8 Traction Motors (so 4 Bogies).

If the stats on Wikipedia are to be believed, and the motors are from CIGs, then it's 2000hp output, 200 more than original.

 

[DustyBin]

If the stats on Wikipedia are to be believed, and the motors are from CIGs, then it's 2000hp output, 200 more than original.

That’s correct, the EE507s used in SR EMUs produce 250hp. The “rule” was a motor per carriage, the exceptions I can think of being the temporary 8VAB (12 motors for 8 carriages) and the MLVs (2 motors in a single carriage).

 

[norbitonflyer]

That’s correct, the EE507s used in SR EMUs produce 250hp. The “rule” was a motor per carriage, the exceptions I can think of being the temporary 8VAB (12 motors for 8 carriages) and the MLVs (2 motors in a single carriage).

Other exceptions were the 6PUL/6PAN, which had four power bogies (eight motors) in a 6-car unit, and the 5BEL itself which had the same arrangement but only five cars (as they were heavier).
the 4REPs had 4 power bogies (8 motors) in a 4-car unit but, like the VAB, they were designed to work with TC units.

 

[contrex]

I would love to see a test on Merseyrail, but would stand well away from the circuit breakers!

I think it was Richard Catlow who described on the uk.railway Usenet group the strongly felt impact on the chest (because of the arc blow out air blast) when a breaker was test-tripped during commissioning of a substation for the beefed-up supplies for the Channel Tunnel.

 

[norbitonflyer]

403 was the 5BEL TOPS class. 4CORs were 404s.

Quite so. But the original unit 3101 was a 4COR. The Brighton Belle units were numbered 3051 - 3053. As the 4RES units were numbered from 3054 upwrads, 3050 is the only number available consecutive with the original series. (The restored unit includes cars from all three original units, so none of the original nunmbers would be authentic)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jan 2025 ==

Liverpool? What would it be doing up there? I thought it was for the southern region?

It's currently at Crewe as that is where the final work on it was done, so Merseyrail is the nearest place where it can be tested under its own power

 

[DustyBin]

Other exceptions were the 6PUL/6PAN, which had four power bogies (eight motors) in a 6-car unit, and the 5BEL itself which had the same arrangement but only five cars (as they were heavier).
the 4REPs had 4 power bogies (8 motors) in a 4-car unit but, like the VAB, they were designed to work with TC units.

Your quite correct, I was however referring specifically to the units with EE507 motors.

That's interesting re the VAB; I've only ever seen photos of it working on it's own or with a VEP.

 

[eastwestdivide]

That's interesting re the VAB; I've only ever seen photos of it working on it's own or with a VEP

Think you’re right. Blood and custard at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4VEP.html says

Unit no.8001 had the three motorcoaches to maintain the faster 4 REP schedules as it was used on Bournemouth line semi‑fast services. However, it could be divided into five and three-car portions and occasionally operating as such. It could also run in multiple with other 4 VEP units, although not with 4TC stock as it was unable to supply heating and lighting current to the 4TC units

 

[DustyBin]

Think you’re right. Blood and custard at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4VEP.html says

I wasn't aware of that to be honest, but it would explain the reason!

 

[contrex]

none of the original nunmbers would be authentic)

They worry about the number not being authentic? Really?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They worry about the number not being authentic? Really?

In any case, as the revived unit is technically different in running gear from the original three units, I think 3101 would be the correct number to use... it's a new sub class.

 

[Brush 4]

It's a recreation though so old numbers rule. 3050 is a good compromise, in the same way that new build steam locos have the next number in the sequence. As it has carriages from all 3 5BELs, it could carry any of those numbers in turn. I expect the carriages were swapped around as well between units.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I suspect Rule 1 applies when it comes to painting 4-digit unit numbers on: “it’s my train set”.
Have we had the TOPS numbers for unit and coaches yet? Partial answer for the coaches on p1:

99291-99285-99282-99288.