Etickets - what is the benefit?

[Cdd89]

Most paper (usually barcoded these days) bus company day and weekly tickets are transferrable - either it's allowed explicitly or there's no effort put into preventing it so it's de-facto allowed. The one thing they want to prevent is passback, i.e. two people using the same ticket to board the same bus, which is easily enough done by only allowing a scan-in by that barcode on that journey once.

Transferring a physical ticket isn’t that useful as you have to travel to the person you want to give the pass to, anti-passback is sufficient for the only real use case. Same reason it isn’t a problem with Oyster capping (and why contactless capping is tied to the DAN rather than the PAN).

Very different story with e-tickets where a group of people could set up a WhatsApp group and share a ticket each morning.

 

[crablab]

Very different story with e-tickets where a group of people could set up a WhatsApp group and share a ticket each morning.

...which will then be quickly identified when scanned, either on the train or when the used ticket fails to open the gateline.
And when you do it several times, the purchaser of the ticket will get an email from the TOC prosecution team - examples available in the D&P section.

On buses, as Bletchyrite says, easily done by only allowing one use of the eTicket's ID per journey. And bus companies already have established mechanisms to identify passback of tickets across services (ie. two people sharing the same Day Ticket each day)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2025 ==

I also think there's a problem with normalising this as well - non-technical people don't understand the trade-offs and see it as a silver bullet when it's really not.

And likewise fail to appreciate that the public keys in public key cryptography pose no security risk if made public, as their name suggests...

 

[Richardr]

Fitting barcodesreaders on every tube gate line would significantly slow it down. For the phone addicts, it would be better if you could load your e-tickets onto Google wallet and use NFC to go through the gate, the football staidums can manage it. TFL accepting ITSO would be nice to

I agree with your first sentence - the number of people who get to a gate and only then realise they have to get their phone out and then the ticket / google wallet out, meanwhile blocking the gate - never fails to amaze me [or annoy me as I am behind].

However, and I don't know the answer to this, what distinguishes the ticket NFC from the credit card NFC at the tube gate? It works in football as they are ticket only, not taking credit / debit cards at the turnstile. How does the TfL gate know which to take?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with your first sentence - the number of people who get to a gate and only then realise they have to get their phone out and then the ticket / google wallet out, meanwhile blocking the gate - never fails to amaze me [or annoy me as I am behind].

It's like people who get to the till at a supermarket and only then start fishing in their handbag/pocket for their purse/wallet, as if the idea of having to pay for stuff is some sort of surprise, whereas astute people use their time in the queue to get their payment method ready for use.

However, and I don't know the answer to this, what distinguishes the ticket NFC from the credit card NFC at the tube gate? It works in football as they are ticket only, not taking credit / debit cards at the turnstile. How does the TfL gate know which to take?

I don't know about Android, but on iPhones the default is to use the card set for transit mode, but if you double tap the power button you can then choose a card or ticket which will be used when presented. I can't see that working well on TfL though because people might get easily confused and forget to select the ticket, or accidentally deselect it, resulting in an unnecessary card charge. Having the pad for contactless and a separate scanner for e-tickets would avoid this.

 

[Kieran_MF135]

All depends

Also keep mind some discount can't be used on E ticket as only guard or ticket office can sell

But benefits I see is easier to get no need to collect a paper ticket. Less likely for gate to reject it then being told the paper ticket is not Vaild.

Faster able to have it on phone or printed out.

 

[Haywain]

some discount can't be used on E ticket as only guard or ticket office can sell

It's not that the discount can't be used on eTtickets but that (some or most?) guards and some ticket offices can't sell eTickets.

 

[Kieran_MF135]

It's not that the discount can't be used on eTtickets but that (some or most?) guards and some ticket offices can't sell eTickets.

The 50% anytime day return discount for wheelchair users or thoses who are blind traveling with a companion.

 

[Haywain]

The 50% anytime day return discount for wheelchair users or thoses who are blind traveling with a companion.

I'm pretty sure that they could be applied to an eTicket issued by an LNER ticket office, demonstrating that it is the point of sale that causes the restriction and not the discount.

 

[Richardr]

It's the same in the Premier League - I think the only away match where I have had an e-ticket in the last couple of seasons was Aston Villa. This year it was paper from Villa, which turned out to be a good thing, as their system had problems and the gates for home fans were still shut with large queues an hour before the match, whereas the away fans could enter with no issue.

Add Newcastle to the away games I've received an e-ticket from.

 

[renegademaster]

distinguishes the ticket NFC from the credit card NFC at the tube gate?

The app suppresses the other NFC applications while you got one selected. If you forget to select before hand I guess it would just select your card, which for a short tube journey is hardly the end of the world

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2025 ==

I agree with your first sentence - the number of people who get to a gate and only then realise they have to get their phone out and then the ticket / google wallet out, meanwhile blocking the gate - never fails to amaze me [or annoy me as I am behind]

On a lot of phones it's often a bit of faff getting it to scan properly, especially so I imagine if you are a tourist who rarely uses trains

 

[Tetchytyke]

Which I'm guessing is also why Interrail passes are either m-tickets or physical, not as PDFs?

Britrail tickets are issued as PDFs, though. Both Britrail and Interrail passes require that you carry ID.

 

[sheff1]

Transferring a physical ticket isn’t that useful as you have to travel to the person you want to give the pass to

Not a problem if the first user doesn't care who the next user is.

 

[crablab]

However, and I don't know the answer to this, what distinguishes the ticket NFC from the credit card NFC at the tube gate?

The EMV specification (actually the underlying IEEC spec, I believe) allows multiple applications to be presented to the terminal. The terminal chooses which application to run.
This is how duel network cards work, which aren't very common here but are a regulatory requirement in the US (it's more subtle than that, but that's the net effect).

If you've ever been asked to choose between debit or credit on a US terminal, that's why (although they're doing it in the wrong order on those terminals)

The same can be done with a 'transit card' and 'bank card' on a device. All the applications are presented, the gateline (or validator) chooses the AID for (eg.) ITSO in preference. If it doesn't see the one for the 'transit card' it's looking for, it falls back to the order on the card (and thus the bank card)

 

[kevinchoi1997]

When booking via the Uber app, it's giving me an option to select "mobile ticket" for a journey which involves the London Underground. Will this still be fine or should i choose "collect at station" instead?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When booking via the Uber app, it's giving me an option to select "mobile ticket" for a journey which involves the London Underground. Will this still be fine or should i choose "collect at station" instead?

It would be safer to choose to collect a paper ticket at the station for any journey involving the Underground (or for that matter Merseyrail), there's a good chance they will not let you in with an e-ticket.

 

[Richardr]

The app suppresses the other NFC applications while you got one selected. If you forget to select before hand I guess it would just select your card, which for a short tube journey is hardly the end of the world

Hardly ideal if the short tube journey had already been paid for, and what's more, the chance of getting a tap-in without a tap-out or vice versa and then a maximum fare is much more if such a mistake is made on one side of the journey.

The EMV specification (actually the underlying IEEC spec, I believe) allows multiple applications to be presented to the terminal. The terminal chooses which application to run.
This is how duel network cards work, which aren't very common here but are a regulatory requirement in the US (it's more subtle than that, but that's the net effect).

If you've ever been asked to choose between debit or credit on a US terminal, that's why (although they're doing it in the wrong order on those terminals)

The same can be done with a 'transit card' and 'bank card' on a device. All the applications are presented, the gateline (or validator) chooses the AID for (eg.) ITSO in preference. If it doesn't see the one for the 'transit card' it's looking for, it falls back to the order on the card (and thus the bank card)

What if there are several transit cards? At the moment I have eight journeys on Google Wallet, there and back on four separate days. Is it intelligent enough to pick the right one?

I'm only asking as it was suggested that using NFC would remove the requirement to select a journey on a mobile wallet app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if there are several transit cards? At the moment I have eight journeys on Google Wallet, there and back on four separate days. Is it intelligent enough to pick the right one?

You can only have one payment card selected for transit mode. For any other you need to (Apple) double tap the power button, authenticate (e.g. Face ID) and select it as you would if paying in a shop.

Android may be different but I doubt it.

 

[MrJeeves]

With Google Wallet you have a card set for contactless by default which will be used for any transaction, unless you explicitly open the Wallet app and swipe over to a different card to use that instead.

You didn't even have to unlock your phone for any transaction, but that changed last year. I don't use contactless for TfL journeys, so I couldn't say if that requirement applies for transit transactions.

 

[Richardr]

I think we are talking at cross purposes re transit card, my error.

The suggestion was:

Fitting barcode readers on every tube gate line would significantly slow it down. For the phone addicts, it would be better if you could load your e-tickets onto Google wallet and use NFC to go through the gate, the football staidums can manage it. TFL accepting ITSO would be nice to

From the sound of it, loading e-tickets onto Google Wallet and using NFC from the e-ticket without having to go into Google Wallet and select the e-ticket wouldn't work as the TfL NFC reader would take either the card selected for normal purchases, or the card if different selected in transit mode.

 

[MrJeeves]

TFL accepting ITSO would be nice to

TfL do accept ITSO though? I have had many Day Travelcards loaded onto my ITSO smartcard without issue.

From the sound of it, loading e-tickets onto Google Wallet and using NFC from the e-ticket without having to go into Google Wallet and select the e-ticket wouldn't work as the TfL NFC reader would take either the card selected for normal purchases, or the card if different selected in transit mode.

Yes, for NFC passes to work in Google Wallet, you have to open up the pass inside the Wallet app.

The solution would really be just to add a national ITSO scheme to Google Wallet... Tyne and Wear have managed this: I have a Pop card in my Google Wallet, and you can even top it up at a ticket machine. It's just like a normal Smarcard but on my phone. No reason it can't be done for the rest of the country.

 

[Haywain]

I have a Pop card in my Google Wallet,

When I had one on my Google Wallet it became impossible to use contactless phone payment on buses elsewhere, as the equipment defaulted to opening the Pop card. I had to remove the Pop card to resolve this. I suppose it shows that the machines will always look first for an ITSO card, but if they won't let you use the same one as elsewhere that's not going to be helpful.

 

[MrJeeves]

When I had one on my Google Wallet it became impossible to use contactless phone payment on buses elsewhere, as the equipment defaulted to opening the Pop card. I had to remove the Pop card to resolve this. I suppose it shows that the machines will always look first for an ITSO card, but if they won't let you use the same one as elsewhere that's not going to be helpful.

Oh, interesting... I've generally had issues with Google Wallet on buses so I often use a bank card by default, but now I'm wondering if it's all down to this...

Have you tried explicitly opening Google Wallet and tapping on a card to see if that "forces" it to use a payment card? It's the only potential solution I can think of.

 

[Haywain]

Have you tried explicitly opening Google Wallet and tapping on a card to see if that "forces" it to use a payment card?

That's what I had to do each time the Pop card was opened. Too much faff so the Pop card went, well, pop (I had a negative balance, so no money to worry about)!.

 

[317 forever]

I insist on collecting and buying the physical tickets, *always*.
I don't hold any grudges against those who prefer the convenience of the e-tickets - they're handy! But I'm a traditionalist, and I like to hold onto something for my money, if you understand my reasoning.

I used to feel that way too.

However, you can keep and even print off your pdf ticket.

Even better news is that, unlike credit card size tickets, ticket gates will never gobble up e-tickets (not yet anyway ).