GWR taking me to court for forgetting railcard

[fg123]

Hi,
I bought a ticket from bath spa to Bristol temple meads, with the 16-25 railcard discount. I had stupidly taken my railcard out my wallet but didn’t think about it at the time. I went to the gates at Bath Spa and I was stopped to check my ticket, the man asked for my railcard, I obviously couldn’t find it so he said buy a new full price ticket. I was about to turnaround but an inspector said if I answer a few questions then I will receive a letter and can send a picture of my railcard to sort this out without having to pay any extra costs. He then questioned me with the camera on, asking if I actually owned a railcard and so forth. He then took my ticket and printed me a new one.

I gave my address as my parent’s address as I’ve moved house a few times recently for work. I then received a court hearing notice yesterday, 7 months after this incident, I had not received anyone opportunity to settle this before going to court. Today the letter for the pre-settlement court fees was found and I have instantaneously tried to pay these fees to settle pre-court. However, as I only received the letter today the time to pay has expired.

I have emailed the revenue recovery GWR team and the prosecutions team but their automated response says it will take 15-20 working days to reply and my court hearing is in 19 working days. How else can I sort this out. I’m willing to pay the fees, I would like to add I didn’t try to avoid paying the right fare as I owned a valid railcard at the time, is there any possible way I can avoid going to court and sort out this issue.

 

[30907]

1. Did you actually pay for a new full-price ticket on the day?

2. What did the first letter actually say? Could you upload a redacted version?

3. What was the actual date of the incident, and of the court summons?

Almost certainly this can be sorted.

 

[fg123]

1. No, foolishly I didn’t buy a new full-price ticket because the inspector printed me a new one to use for my journey.

2. I have uploaded a redacted version of the first letter. It is dated in November but I didn’t actually receive the letter until today, 27/01/25. To summarise it, it is a settlement offer of £103.55 to not go to court for not having a valid ticket or valid railcard for the journey.

3. The date of the incident was the 14/06/24 and the court date is 20/02/25.

I would like to add I have called the payments line and have now been able to pay the pre-settlement fee of £193.55. However, will this mean I still have to go to court?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

1. No, foolishly I didn’t buy a new full-price ticket because the inspector printed me a new one to use for my journey.

2. I have uploaded a redacted version of the first letter. It is dated in November but I didn’t actually receive the letter until today, 27/01/25. To summarise it, it is a settlement offer of £103.55 to not go to court for not having a valid ticket or valid railcard for the journey.

3. The date of the incident was the 14/06/24 and the court date is 20/02/25.

I would like to add I have called the payments line and have now been able to pay the pre-settlement fee of £193.55. However, will this mean I still have to go to court?

I would just like to add thank you for responding so quickly to this thread.

 

[Snow1964]

I have uploaded a redacted version of the first letter. It is dated in November but I didn’t actually receive the letter until today,

To be clear, did post office deliver it today, or was it sitting unopened at your parents house for weeks.

Obviously you can't open something delayed in mail and not delivered, but if it was delivered and you forgot to open it that is different basis

 

[Titfield]

As you have paid the sum requested by GWR in full, they should now discontinue the court action by notifying the court.

You need to obtain from GWR written confirmation they have discontinued the court action and notified the court accordingly.

I would give them a couple of days to action the receipt of the payment and discontinue the action etc. If no response is received I would chase this up as self evidently it is important that the action is discontinued.

EDIT

Have you sent them proof of your holding a railcard?

Many operators refund new tickets purchased in the event of a railcard being forgotten however in your case the procedure of you buying a new ticket seems not to have been applied. I would chase this up with them as many operators allow you "one forgotten railcard incident" as long as a valid railcard is subsequently provided.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s a shame you paid. GWR were out of time to take you to court; they had a 6 month timescale to do so. Hence, there was no criminal threat to you.

 

[fg123]

To be clear, did post office deliver it today, or was it sitting unopened at your parents house for weeks.

Obviously you can't open something delayed in mail and not delivered, but if it was delivered and you forgot to open it that is different basis

The letter was delivered to my parents’ house but I do not know the date as it was lost in other mail received and I was only able to read the contents of the letter today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

It’s a shame you paid. GWR were out of time to take you to court; they had a 6 month timescale to do so. Hence, there was no criminal threat to you.

That is very frustrating but if that is correct I am just happy it means I’m not being taken to court.

 

[jfollows]

It’s a shame you paid. GWR were out of time to take you to court; they had a 6 month timescale to do so. Hence, there was no criminal threat to you.

GWR could have initiated the prosecution by 15 December, then it would not be out of time, I’m not sure anything above indicates whether or not this happened.

 

[fg123]

As you have paid the sum requested by GWR in full, they should now discontinue the court action by notifying the court.

You need to obtain from GWR written confirmation they have discontinued the court action and notified the court accordingly.

I would give them a couple of days to action the receipt of the payment and discontinue the action etc. If no response is received I would chase this up as self evidently it is important that the action is discontinued.

EDIT

Have you sent them proof of your holding a railcard?

Many operators refund new tickets purchased in the event of a railcard being forgotten however in your case the procedure of you buying a new ticket seems not to have been applied. I would chase this up with them as many operators allow you "one forgotten railcard incident" as long as a valid railcard is subsequently provided.

Yes, I have sent them an image of my railcard and ID’s to show it is mine and valid at the date of purchasing the ticket. Do you know how I receive this receipt of payment, I paid the settlement fee over the phone and have been given a number reference as a receipt of payment but this doesn’t show evidence of GWR accepting the settlement and dropping the court hearing. I gave them my date of birth and postcode so I am hoping that means they will send a letter to detail they’ve dropped the case? I apologise for asking so many questions and thank you for the quick responses.

 

[WesternLancer]

GWR could have initiated the prosecution by 15 December, then it would not be out of time, I’m not sure anything above indicates whether or not this happened.

Maybe dates on court papers somewhere would reveal it, but I guess rather academic anyway.

Vital task now is establishing that GWR have or will remove the court action as advised above.

OP needs to pursue this in writing and get written answer ahead of court date imho.

If that is not achieved would it be necessary for op to go to the court in person to explain situation to court officials and GWRs prosecutor so it can be withdrawn on the day? Hopefully it won’t come to that.

I would suggest op gets drafts of whatever they need to write now checked here before sending them if possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

…., I paid the settlement fee over the phone and have been given a number reference as a receipt of payment but this doesn’t show evidence of GWR accepting the settlement and dropping the court hearing. I gave them my date of birth and postcode so I am hoping that means they will send a letter to detail they’ve dropped the case? I apologise for asking so many questions and thank you for the quick responses.

Don’t sit back and presume they will send such a letter esp as you have a tight deadline for the court date. IMHO you need to be proactive to ensure the court action is dropped.

 

[fg123]

Maybe dates on court papers somewhere would reveal it, but I guess rather academic anyway.

Vital task now is establishing that GWR have or will remove the court action as advised above.

OP needs to pursue this in writing and get written answer ahead of court date imho.

If that is not achieved would it be necessary for op to go to the court in person to explain situation to court officials and GWRs prosecutor so it can be withdrawn on the day? Hopefully it won’t come to that.

I would suggest op gets drafts of whatever they need to write now checked here before sending them if possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==


Don’t sit back and presume they will send such a letter esp as you have a tight deadline for the court date. IMHO you need to be proactive to ensure the court action is dropped.

Yes, I will stay proactive. I luckily live in Reading so will visit their offices tomorrow while on my lunch break, I will drop off a letter there explaining the situation and will hopefully be able to receive the written evidence of the court hearing being dropped. I have also sent further emails to my original emails to GWR revenue recovery and the GWR prosecutions office detailing the payment reference number for the settlement fees and the date of payment.

 

[some bloke]

After a few days, you can email the court asking whether the company has dropped the case.

I think it's worth asking for a refund, as the settlement offer was thought suitable for someone who didn't have a railcard at all.

You can post a draft on here of a letter asking for a refund, for people to comment on.

If they don't refund, you could publicise the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2025 ==

They may not accept people turning up at the office asking for information or raising points. If you have a go, if I were you I would present the railcard first.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If they don't refund, you could publicise the case.

I appreciate this will sound harsh, but much of the reason for this problem is that the OP didn't open their post at the address they gave the railway. I find it hard to believe that a journalist would want to write this up as a case of the railway being unfair to a customer who was doing their best to cooperate.

 

[some bloke]

I appreciate this will sound harsh, but much of the reason for this problem is that the OP didn't open their post at the address they gave the railway. I find it hard to believe that a journalist would want to write this up as a case of the railway being unfair to a customer who was doing their best to cooperate.

Even though the passenger was disorganised, £193 or £103 seems harsh to me, especially if they didn't see a letter asking for proof of the railcard.

 

[John R]

Even though the passenger was disorganised, £193 or £103 seems harsh to me, especially if they didn't see a letter asking for proof of the railcard.

This is a good example though where an organisation offers a concession, (in this case for someone who forgot their railcard), and now are being criticised for being hard when the customer fails (for whatever reason) to act on their responsibilities under the concession offered. Where do you draw the line?

 

[BazingaTribe]

Even though the passenger was disorganised, £193 or £103 seems harsh to me, especially if they didn't see a letter asking for proof of the railcard.

It's the sort of costly mistake that, in this instance, means the person keeps an eye on their post and responds in good time to what's asked of them. It may not be anyone's fault, but there is a responsibility that the person owes to the railway in this instance.

 

[swt_passenger]

Even though the passenger was disorganised, £193 or £103 seems harsh to me, especially if they didn't see a letter asking for proof of the railcard.

The initial £90 + fare is actually towards the low end of the administration fees typically asked for. A few TOCs would have asked for a much higher figure initially, there have been a few significantly higher fees quoted in the last few months…

 

[Cuthbert]

The initial £90 + fare is actually towards the low end of the administration fees typically asked for. A few TOCs would have asked for a much higher figure initially, there have been a few significantly higher fees quoted in the last few months…

£250 from Avanti and WMR I think?

 

[some bloke]

This is a good example though where an organisation offers a concession

We don't know whether they sent a letter asking for proof.
If they don't give a refund, I would ask if they sent that.

Opinions differ - personally I think someone who did turn out to have a railcard should be treated more leniently than someone who didn't.

 

[BazingaTribe]

We don't know whether they sent a letter asking for proof.
If they don't give a refund, I would ask if they sent that.

Opinions differ - personally I think someone who did turn out to have a railcard should be treated more leniently than someone who didn't.

OP says:

I gave my address as my parent’s address as I’ve moved house a few times recently for work. I then received a court hearing notice yesterday, 7 months after this incident, I had not received anyone opportunity to settle this before going to court. Today the letter for the pre-settlement court fees was found and I have instantaneously tried to pay these fees to settle pre-court. However, as I only received the letter today the time to pay has expired.

They need to be on top of things, particularly if they're a bit nomadic at the moment. I know I've had my official address at my parents' house for a while before I settled down, but then it's our responsibility to sort this out between us.

 

[some bloke]

@fg123 , I note that you don't say it was completely your fault that you didn't see correspondence.

If you did take reasonable steps to see it by making a clear request but someone else failed to pass it on or there was a misunderstanding, then your position may be stronger.

 

[Haywain]

We don't know whether they sent a letter asking for proof.

The letter that the OP has posted (post #3) clearly gives an opportunity to provide evidence of the railcard being held.

 

[some bloke]

The letter that the OP has posted (post #3) clearly gives an opportunity to provide evidence of the railcard being held.

Fair enough. It's still an indication that they didn't intend to treat the two types of case the same. And the argument that the person should have kept a close eye on mail is weakened if the company takes five months to ask for simple proof of a railcard rather than a couple of weeks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Anyway, a next step can be to ask for a refund - if they agree, the arguments may not be needed.

 

[BazingaTribe]

Fair enough. It's still an indication that they didn't intend to treat the two types of case the same. And the argument that the person should have kept a close eye on mail is weakened if the company takes five months to ask for simple proof of a railcard rather than a couple of weeks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Anyway, a next step can be to ask for a refund - if they agree, the arguments may not be needed.

Perhaps you can point to where it says that a delay in a letter being sent nullifies the responsibility of a recipient not keeping on top of their own post and responding to it. Five months is still within the time limit to bring charges after the event.

 

[John R]

Fair enough. It's still an indication that they didn't intend to treat the two types of case the same. And the argument that the person should have kept a close eye on mail is weakened if the company takes five months to ask for simple proof of a railcard rather than a couple of weeks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Anyway, a next step can be to ask for a refund - if they agree, the arguments may not be needed.

Where does it say it took five months? It just says that “it was found”.

 

[30907]

Where does it say it took five months? It just says that “it was found”.

The letter is dated November and refers to an incident in June.

 

[Haywain]

The letter is dated November and refers to an incident in June.

I would have expected that the OP was issued with something at the time of being stopped giving details of where to send the railcard. Perhaps @RPI can confirm what should have happened.

 

[RPI]

As the original letter says,

I would have expected that the OP was issued with something at the time of being stopped giving details of where to send the railcard. Perhaps @RPI can confirm what should have happened.

Normally it's just the letter as has been uploaded, where it states to submit any mitigation, it seems here that the letter was sent within time but wasn't acted on.