London Underground: Should Waterloo & City Line be extended?

[greataj]

I don't know if this is the right thread to be discussing London Underground speculation, so apologies if not.

Something I've often thought is overlooked is what the Waterloo & City Line could offer in terms of connectivity.

It's original purpose of simply connecting Waterloo to the City is rather past its selling point. Eurostar moving to St Pancras never went in it's favour and development of the "City" north of Bank means it stops short of much of that development.

Whilst many might argue they'd want to see it essentially close and repurposed into another line (such as a DLR extension through Bank), what if it were to be actually extended?

I don't know what the physical constraints may be, but I could see a pretty strong case in extendeding it to Shoreditch High St, adding stations in Blackfriars and Liverpool St/Moorgate.

I could see multiple benefits with this:
-Better reach to the enlarged "City" development from Waterloo, avoiding changing at Bank for Liverpool St/Moorgate
-Improved access from Shoreditch/Liverpool St to the river, taking pressure off the Circle line between Aldgate and Mansion House. Would also provide additional Thameslink connections using Blackfriars, rather than having to route through Farringdon.
-Connecting Liverpool St and Shoreditch with a rail link, also providing easier interchange between the Windrush and Weaver lines of the London Overground network.
-Waterloo connections to the Elizabeth Line through Liverpool St, particularly improving connections east-bound.

 

[Russel]

I'm not sure Eurostar is relevant, the W&C was around for almost 100 years before Eurostar arrived at Waterloo.

I can see the merit in extending the W&C and even adding a station at Blackfriars, but I can't imagine there will ever be the ambition or money make any major changes to it.

 

[PeterC]

Anybody who has tried to travel from the Eastern suburbs to Waterloo has probably looked at a 2 dimensional map or diagram and wondered why the line can't go a little further. The problem is that there is a maze of tunnels at Bank that go deeper than the W&C.

The answer is to build a whole new line bypassing the problem area. They did just that with the Jubilee Line Extension providing a direct link between the GEML and East London ( now Windrush) line to Waterloo as well as the main objective of serving Docklands

 

[Harpo]

Anybody who has tried to travel from the Eastern suburbs to Waterloo has probably looked at a 2 dimensional map or diagram and wondered why the line can't go a little further. The problem is that there is a maze of tunnels at Bank that go deeper than the W&C.

Quite. On a flat map, extending the GN Moorgate branch onto Waterloo would eliminate the W&C - Before subterranean realities kick in!

 

[DerekC]

I think the main problem with extending the W&C at Bank is that the DLR station tunnels and headshunt cross the path of any possible extension - and they are much deeper than the W&C tunnels. According to Daniels' depth maps (see link below) the W&C platform level is 20m below ground. They don't cover the DLR, but the Northern Line platform level is (at 21m down) about the same as the W&C and the DLR station is under the Northern Line platforms so must be at about 28m down. Further on, quite apart from sewers and all, threading your way through the station complex at Liverpool Street doesn't look possible at all. A station somewhere east of Bishopsgate might work but you've still got to get under the Met and over the Elizabeth Line. The DLR branch or extension might have worked, but not now since the junction would need to be in the middle of the existing DLR Bank station.

 

[65477]

With a return to office based working and financial institutions returning to the city from Canary wharf perhaps.

It's original purpose of simply connecting Waterloo to the City is rather past its selling point

Might be premature.

 

[swt_passenger]

No. It’s physically impossible to extend it at either end, (as already mentioned), and an extra station cannot realistically be built at Blackfriars because of the gradient and curvature to get under the river.

There’s been a suggestion about this every year or two, but they have almost always ignored the reality of existing constraints.

 

[MP33]

Are the vaults of the old Midland Bank, also in the way at Bank as well?

 

[DerekC]

Are the vaults of the old Midland Bank, also in the way at Bank as well?

Don't know - where are they? Many years ago I met a guy who was the Resident Engineer during the construction of the travolators from the Bank ticket hall down to the W&C station. He had a wonderful story of finding a wall where no wall should be, breaking through it and finding themselves in the vaults of Mappin & Webb, but I don't know where the Midland Bank was.

 

[cle]

With a return to office based working and financial institutions returning to the city from Canary wharf perhaps.


Might be premature.

HSBC or not, the City never went anywhere. And Shoreditch, Braodgate etc all expanded - Liverpool St is 'town' for that whole side of the city.

 

[DerekC]

HSBC or not, the City never went anywhere. And Shoreditch, Braodgate etc all expanded - Liverpool St is 'town' for that whole side of the city.

Not sure about "the City never went anywhere" but you are right, the area around and to the north and east of Liverpool Street really buzzes. I regularly have to get from Waterloo to a campus near Liverpool Street and it is an awkward one. There are lots of possible routes but none of them is quick or particularly easy. So the OP has a point, but unfortunately extending the W&C isn't an option.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s simply not possible without closing other lines and demolishing some very expensive buildings to clear their basements.

 

[Helvellyn]

Were there any ever London & South Western Railway or Southern Raikway proposals for extensions in the City, when such things might have been easier?

 

[stuu]

Not sure, but NSE/LT did look into it in the late 80s, and decided it was impossible then. And it's got a lot harder since with all the deep basements/piling

 

[Snow1964]

No. It’s physically impossible to extend it at either end, (as already mentioned), and an extra station cannot realistically be built at Blackfriars because of the gradient and curvature to get under the river.

There’s been a suggestion about this every year or two, but they have almost always ignored the reality of existing constraints.

I think they did work out that it could be extended through the depot (there is a green space that is a grassed over wartime bomb site across road from Old Vic theatre) that could be big shaft construction site.

Basically it would have been a curved link to end on connection under the river with old Aldwych branch of the Piccadilly. The Aldwych line was deep enough for under river extension. But there were problems as the 4th (Piccadilly) platform at Holborn was short and built at wrong height (hasn't been used for decades).

But even when Waterloo was the busiest London terminus, wasn't deemed financially viable, the main (and about only advantage) was that peak hour commuters would be using both platforms at Waterloo, instead of it being one busy and one virtually empty platform.

I can't find the article now, but it was also possible to incorporate longer platforms. From memory at Waterloo it extended them into the depot site (and that big construction hole allowed extended depot to compensate, with junctions in the shaft area. Aldwych has longer platforms anyway, and at Bank a version of Shepherds Bush was proposed (where the original terminus Central London station had its platforms extended towards the crossover tunnel by building two interlinked rings that were linked by columns. But it never happened.